Z-max vs. Z-wear
Z-max vs. Z-wear
I'm seeing the new shaman in the reaveal with Z-wear PM steel. In Larrin's article Z-max steel is the in the upper tier. Could someone help me understand the difference between z-wear and z-max?
thanks
thanks
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
From what I hear, Z-Wear is akin to CPM Cru-Wear. (Others will be along with much greater insight.)
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Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Z-max is completely different from Z-wear/Cruwear.
Z-max is roughly similar to Maxamet in composition.
Z-max is roughly similar to Maxamet in composition.
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Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Z-Wear is very similar to CruWear. Z-Max is a high carbide tool steel in the same class as Maxamet, 15V, etc.
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Here's the compositions with some others as well
Z-Wear
Carbon: 1.15
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.60
Tungsten: 1.00
Vanadium: 2.40
CPM Cru-wear
Carbon: 1.15
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.60
Tungsten: 1.15
Vanadium: 2.40
CPM-3V
Carbon: 0.80
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.30
Vanadium: 2.75
CPM-4V
Carbon: 1.35
Chromium: 5.00
Manganese: 0.40
Molybdenum: 2.95
Silicon: 0.80
Vanadium: 3.85
Z-Max
Carbon: 2.00
Chromium: 4.00
Vanadium: 5.00
Molybdenum: 5.00
Tungsten: 10.00
Cobalt: 9.00
Maxamet
Carbon: 2.15
Chromium: 4.75
Cobalt: 10
Manganese: 0.30
Sillicon: 0.25
Sulfur: 0.07
Tungsten: 13.00
Vanadium: 6.00
Z-Wear
Carbon: 1.15
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.60
Tungsten: 1.00
Vanadium: 2.40
CPM Cru-wear
Carbon: 1.15
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.60
Tungsten: 1.15
Vanadium: 2.40
CPM-3V
Carbon: 0.80
Chromium: 7.50
Molybdenum: 1.30
Vanadium: 2.75
CPM-4V
Carbon: 1.35
Chromium: 5.00
Manganese: 0.40
Molybdenum: 2.95
Silicon: 0.80
Vanadium: 3.85
Z-Max
Carbon: 2.00
Chromium: 4.00
Vanadium: 5.00
Molybdenum: 5.00
Tungsten: 10.00
Cobalt: 9.00
Maxamet
Carbon: 2.15
Chromium: 4.75
Cobalt: 10
Manganese: 0.30
Sillicon: 0.25
Sulfur: 0.07
Tungsten: 13.00
Vanadium: 6.00
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Great feedback, thanks all. Is Z-wear noticeably different from PD#1?
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Micromelt PD#1
Carbon: 1.10
Chromium: 7.75
Manganese: 0.25
Molybdenum: 1.60
Silicon: 1.20
Tungsten: 1.10
Vanadium: 2.35
On Knifesteelnerds.com Larrin has an article about the history of these steels
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/03/ ... uff-steel/
Carbon: 1.10
Chromium: 7.75
Manganese: 0.25
Molybdenum: 1.60
Silicon: 1.20
Tungsten: 1.10
Vanadium: 2.35
On Knifesteelnerds.com Larrin has an article about the history of these steels
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/03/ ... uff-steel/
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
For me the question is: what's the difference between Z-Wear and CPM Cru-wear?
Compositionally they're almost identical. Almost... what does that 0.15 percent difference in Tungsten do?
Even if the two steels were exactly identical, they're each produced by different companies.
If you were to cook two of the same thing, using the same ingredients, but different brands of ingredients, typically you'd expect the results to taste different. So M390 versus CTS-204P for example or 10V vs A11 as another. They're the same... kind of.
Beyond that, subtle variations in cook temp/time has noticable diferences in the result, such as with a heat treat/tempur... those differences can further be amplified with subtle variations in the ingredients... such as 0.15 Tungsten.
All of this becomes more interesting when my own wishful thinking causes me to hope that the result will mean that Z-Wear will land at a higher Rockwell hardness than CPM Cru-wear. But then could it cause it to run softer?
Compositionally they're almost identical. Almost... what does that 0.15 percent difference in Tungsten do?
Even if the two steels were exactly identical, they're each produced by different companies.
If you were to cook two of the same thing, using the same ingredients, but different brands of ingredients, typically you'd expect the results to taste different. So M390 versus CTS-204P for example or 10V vs A11 as another. They're the same... kind of.
Beyond that, subtle variations in cook temp/time has noticable diferences in the result, such as with a heat treat/tempur... those differences can further be amplified with subtle variations in the ingredients... such as 0.15 Tungsten.
All of this becomes more interesting when my own wishful thinking causes me to hope that the result will mean that Z-Wear will land at a higher Rockwell hardness than CPM Cru-wear. But then could it cause it to run softer?
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
I don’t know why the datasheet lists that small difference in tungsten. Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Ok, 8th grade algebra was traumatic for me. My understanding of the transitive property brings up issues. What I am understanding is Z-wear+PD#1=CPMCruwear. Z-max=Maxamet.
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
You’ve got the right idea
Z-wear = CPM Cru-wear
PD#1 ≈ CPM Cru-wear
Z-max has less C, Cr, Co, W, and V than Maxamet.
Z-max also has 5% Mo while Maxamet has none. They’ll be similar, but Maxamet may edge Z-Max out in the raw wear resistance category.
Have: old S30V Native, HAP40 Endura, ZDP DF2, S110V Manix LW, Cru-wear Para 3, SE H1 DF2, S90V Native 5, K390 Urban, SE Pac Salt, P.I.T.S., XHP Manix LW, SB Caly 3, B70P, PMA11, K03, Kapara, REX 45 Military, 154CM Manix LW, Swick, AEB-L Urban, KC Cruwear Manix, M390 PM2, Mantra 2, CruCarta Shaman, M390 Manix, K390 Police 4, S90V Manix LW, Rex 45 Manix LW, 20CV Manix, Rex 45 Lil’Native, Shaman, C208GP, Cruwear Manix, Cruwear Manix, M4 Chief, Z-max!!!
Want: SPY27, K490, Swick 5.
Want: SPY27, K490, Swick 5.
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Yes we are making a category equivalence between Z-Max and Maxamet not saying they are identical. Can’t help with all the same names for the same steel though.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
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Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Thanks Larrin! This gets me a lot more excited about that Shaman sprint!
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
This is another great Spyderco move. So many complaints about the CruCarta, and Sal comes through with another version for us. :)
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Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
I really didn't know this and I have done a bunch of reading about Z wear on Zapp sites and even bought some Z wear sheets though I don't recall from whom. I knew it was a good steel though, as is PD#1. I used to have some old ingot Vascowear or Cruwear laying around though I don't know where it went. I liked that before they made CPM Cruwear. I first ran into Vascowear on a Gerber Sportsman 2 back when even D2 was still rare and exotic in production cutlery. :)Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.
Joe
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Crucible even shows this publicly in the 3V datasheet where it is listed as "CPM CruWear/Z-Wear." http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... 202015.pdfThe Mastiff wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 4:48 amI really didn't know this and I have done a bunch of reading about Z wear on Zapp sites and even bought some Z wear sheets though I don't recall from whom. I knew it was a good steel though, as is PD#1. I used to have some old ingot Vascowear or Cruwear laying around though I don't know where it went. I liked that before they made CPM Cruwear. I first ran into Vascowear on a Gerber Sportsman 2 back when even D2 was still rare and exotic in production cutlery. :)Z-Wear is produced for Zapp by Crucible. Z-Wear and CPM CruWear are identical in every possible way.
Joe
I think you can still buy ingot CruWear though it isn't sold directly to knifemakers often. Vascowear was an underrated steel in its day for sure.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Thats really good info. I was starting to feel as if I was chasing my tail in circles trying to figure out the difference.
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
This needs to be a sticky once the Z-wear is released to save us from the 20+ threads that will surely come, asking how it compares to Cruwear.
15 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Yes, really cool!! Technically the "same" knife, but still.. not. So another sprint is possible without violating the "rules" for sprint runs..
And if they´ll really produce a greater number this time, many who want to experience the properties of this model in use will get one finally, while true collectors still have their rare, "real cruwear" model of the original Crucarta sprint run...
Clever!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Z-max vs. Z-wear
Poor me, not, but the reality is that I have a few months left so is it possible to preorder this so if I don't make production one goes to my son as a practical memento?