I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
- Cambertree
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Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Thanks again for all the work you do to advance the state of knowledge in the community, Larrin and Shawn.
A few quick comments on things that stood out for me:
Check out ZDP189. I know it has been criticised as having slightly less corrosion resistance than a true stainless in Larrin's previous testing, but put that aside for a moment and consider that it has similar wear resistance to K390. It also sharpens relatively easily compared to some of the high vanadium alloys, takes an excellent fine edge, and I haven't had microchipping issues with it even in fairly thin edges. (In 'normal' use, that is. I have chipped it slightly when hitting the edge on steel racking, and dropping it blade out on concrete, but that's to be expected.) A fairly underrated steel I think, compared to many of the 'flavour of the month' steel grades.
In my experience, LC200N seems similar to 8Cr13MoV or Spyderco's AEB-L in edge retention, and slightly below VG10, at least in PE. I was surprised by this too. Thinking about it, I believe it showed better results in Lance's initial testing because of its ability to resist fine edge degradation in a coastal/marine environment. I think Lance has mentioned before that freshly sharpened stainlesses like S30V will show noticeable edge degradation after a day or two in his environment, even without being used.
Interesting result with 52100 as well, relative to the other low alloy non stainlesses.
Also, this quote from the linked article on Maximising Edge Retention, bears some thinking about:
"Edge angle had by far the strongest effect on edge retention, much stronger than other effects such as PM vs ingot and the finish it was sharpened to".
A few quick comments on things that stood out for me:
Check out ZDP189. I know it has been criticised as having slightly less corrosion resistance than a true stainless in Larrin's previous testing, but put that aside for a moment and consider that it has similar wear resistance to K390. It also sharpens relatively easily compared to some of the high vanadium alloys, takes an excellent fine edge, and I haven't had microchipping issues with it even in fairly thin edges. (In 'normal' use, that is. I have chipped it slightly when hitting the edge on steel racking, and dropping it blade out on concrete, but that's to be expected.) A fairly underrated steel I think, compared to many of the 'flavour of the month' steel grades.
In my experience, LC200N seems similar to 8Cr13MoV or Spyderco's AEB-L in edge retention, and slightly below VG10, at least in PE. I was surprised by this too. Thinking about it, I believe it showed better results in Lance's initial testing because of its ability to resist fine edge degradation in a coastal/marine environment. I think Lance has mentioned before that freshly sharpened stainlesses like S30V will show noticeable edge degradation after a day or two in his environment, even without being used.
Interesting result with 52100 as well, relative to the other low alloy non stainlesses.
Also, this quote from the linked article on Maximising Edge Retention, bears some thinking about:
"Edge angle had by far the strongest effect on edge retention, much stronger than other effects such as PM vs ingot and the finish it was sharpened to".
Last edited by Cambertree on Fri May 01, 2020 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Luckily this one looks like work at least. Some other articles took many hours but since the article takes only 10 minutes to read it doesn't look like it. Youtubers tend to do a better job of showing the work they put into things.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
For me it is. Just from what I've read and heard so far, I got the impression most people rank both LC200N and BD1N higher in edge retention than VG10 (and between VG10 and S30V).
But personally I don't have any experience with the newer steels LC 200N and BD1N, but really like VG10.
Looking forward to reading the details of your article to learn more when I get home today!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Excellent work, Larrin! Thank you for sharing this with us.
Kristi
Kristi
There is nothing more important than this one day.
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Thank you for sharing. Very cool.
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Thank you Larrin for all that hard work!! And BBB too for that grind work too! Do you think you’ll ever get some Maxamet to add to your data?
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Yes
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
I agree on these things, I only have one ZDP-189 SG Delica but the steel is definitely some notches above "regular" steels.Cambertree wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 7:57 amCheck out ZDP189. I know it has been criticised [...] A fairly underrated steel I think, compared to many of the 'flavour of the month' steel grades.
Also, this quote from the linked article on Maximising Edge Retention, bears some thinking about:
"Edge angle had by far the strongest effect on edge retention, much stronger than other effects such as PM vs ingot and the finish it was sharpened to".
Edge angle is also a big factor.
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Well done Larrin.
This is a very good addition to the body of knowledge. I'm enjoying the read. It's rare for a scientist to be swayed into writing about his emotional state during an experiment. Audio of the swearing part would have been quite entertaining in the appendices.
Praise your wife for her diligent efforts to temper your enthusiasm. If we all listened to our partners every time, scientific progress would have been much slower over time. You are lucky that you have the one you do. You are not yet a philosopher and so doomed to solving these problems by thought alone.
I can think of several threats to validity and none of them detract from this work. Addressing them would only refine the effort.
This is a very good addition to the body of knowledge. I'm enjoying the read. It's rare for a scientist to be swayed into writing about his emotional state during an experiment. Audio of the swearing part would have been quite entertaining in the appendices.
Praise your wife for her diligent efforts to temper your enthusiasm. If we all listened to our partners every time, scientific progress would have been much slower over time. You are lucky that you have the one you do. You are not yet a philosopher and so doomed to solving these problems by thought alone.
I can think of several threats to validity and none of them detract from this work. Addressing them would only refine the effort.
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Guess I can stop my weekly tests, there's everything we all want to know! :p
Great job!! Thank you for all the work and valuable info!
Great job!! Thank you for all the work and valuable info!
15 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
- steelcity16
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Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Yep! Still the best all-around steel in my opinion. It should really be a production steel in all of the Golden and Seki models.
Also good to see 3V above other popular steels like Super Blue and V-TOKU. Hope to see some 3V folders soon with a HT similar to the Delta HT.
CRU-CARTA THE SEKI MODELS! AND BRING US THE DODO-FLY!
- Naperville
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- Location: Illinois, USA
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
First impressions? Larrin, wow, what a ton of work. You have an excellent work ethic. You must be like a machine once you get going.
Surprising to see where S90V, S110V, K390 and ZDP189 ended up in relation to each other with TCC. I've always been impressed with S90V, not that I'm likely to notice the difference between the 4.
S30V keeps shining. S30V is really a great steel. I did not expect M4 to be below S30V in anything. M4 seems to be the recipient of excellent marketing, and S30V, not so much.
3V acquit itself well! And VG10, who would have thunk it?
Spyderco and Ankerson really nailed the 4V for the Province! I see so many manufacturers going with Nitro-V, and it is so unspectacular. I'm ecstatic over how 4V performed!!!
I missed out on an S60V dagger last year....now I'm kind of kicking myself.
And O1... I cannot believe that Randall still makes all of their knives with that steel. They should move up to 3V at least.
Thanks Larrin!!!
Surprising to see where S90V, S110V, K390 and ZDP189 ended up in relation to each other with TCC. I've always been impressed with S90V, not that I'm likely to notice the difference between the 4.
S30V keeps shining. S30V is really a great steel. I did not expect M4 to be below S30V in anything. M4 seems to be the recipient of excellent marketing, and S30V, not so much.
3V acquit itself well! And VG10, who would have thunk it?
Spyderco and Ankerson really nailed the 4V for the Province! I see so many manufacturers going with Nitro-V, and it is so unspectacular. I'm ecstatic over how 4V performed!!!
I missed out on an S60V dagger last year....now I'm kind of kicking myself.
And O1... I cannot believe that Randall still makes all of their knives with that steel. They should move up to 3V at least.
Thanks Larrin!!!
Last edited by Naperville on Fri May 01, 2020 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Thanks Larrin for all of the hard work, excellent work. :D
I was waiting for someone to actually use a CATRA machine to do what some of us had been doing with the rope cutting all these years.
Jim
I was waiting for someone to actually use a CATRA machine to do what some of us had been doing with the rope cutting all these years.
Jim
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Incredible! Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting and informative read
-Spencer
Rotation:
Gayle Bradley 2 | Mantra 1 | Watu | Chaparral 1 | Dragonfly 2 Salt SE
Rotation:
Gayle Bradley 2 | Mantra 1 | Watu | Chaparral 1 | Dragonfly 2 Salt SE
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Same. I bought a small Nitro-V fixed blade from one of my favorite manufacturers (Bradford) to check out the hype, and was thoroughly underwhelmed with it. And this is from a manufacturer that has blown me away with their v4e and m390 offerings. I was not surprised at all by Larrin's results for Nitro-V.Naperville wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 10:18 amI see so many manufacturers going with Nitro-V, and it is so unspectacular.
- Naperville
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Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
RMJ (I believe) also uses Nitro-V in some of their larger fixed blade knives. While I like the design, we can see that the implementation is lacking. And the Province is such a steal!TomAiello wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 10:29 amSame. I bought a small Nitro-V fixed blade from one of my favorite manufacturers (Bradford) to check out the hype, and was thoroughly underwhelmed with it. And this is from a manufacturer that has blown me away with their v4e and m390 offerings. I was not surprised at all by Larrin's results for Nitro-V.Naperville wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 10:18 amI see so many manufacturers going with Nitro-V, and it is so unspectacular.
I support the 2nd Amendment Organizations of GOA, NRA, FPC, SAF, and "Knife Rights"
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- Naperville
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Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Using various available cuts of meat, it would be interesting if Larrin could tell us how skin/meat/tendons compare to CATRA card stock.
I will never be attacked with a CATRA machine or CATRA card stock. How could these results be better related to the cutting of real world materials(human and animal flesh)? The tests are excellent, and I am in no way trying to diminish them, but for the guy/gal taking down an elk/deer what can we definitively say?
How can we approximate the number of cuts through 3/8 leather jacket? A down Winter coat? 3 T-shirts?
Just throwing this out there for thoughts.
I will never be attacked with a CATRA machine or CATRA card stock. How could these results be better related to the cutting of real world materials(human and animal flesh)? The tests are excellent, and I am in no way trying to diminish them, but for the guy/gal taking down an elk/deer what can we definitively say?
How can we approximate the number of cuts through 3/8 leather jacket? A down Winter coat? 3 T-shirts?
Just throwing this out there for thoughts.
I support the 2nd Amendment Organizations of GOA, NRA, FPC, SAF, and "Knife Rights"
T2T: https://tunnel2towers.org; Special Operations Wounded Warriors: https://sowwcharity.com/
T2T: https://tunnel2towers.org; Special Operations Wounded Warriors: https://sowwcharity.com/
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Nice job Larrin.
Your findings and ours are very similar. We've got Maximet in stock if you need any.
sal
Your findings and ours are very similar. We've got Maximet in stock if you need any.
sal
Re: I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels
Thanks for all that time effort and money you’ve put into that Larrin. So very awesome. Loved reading it