First time sharpening with sharpmaker and need help

[ManyReason]

Hello Spyderco community,

Today, I sharpened my new Para 3 LW on the Spyderco Sharpmaker for the first time ever. Out of the box, I first checked the factory bevel to see if it was 30 degrees inclusive. I put sharpie on both sides of the bevel and took a few strokes on the gray stone on 30 degree setting of the Sharpmaker. The sharpie came off clean on one side, but only came off on the shoulder of the other. This bothered me, so I decided to try to reprofile the entire bevel using the 30 degree setting on the Sharpmaker using the diamond rods. I used the pointy edge and took many, many strokes. I kept checking both sides; obviously one side was clean 15 degrees, but the other side kept hitting the shoulder. After a while of reprofiling on the diamonds, I checked the bevel angle again. Same results: one side the sharpie came off completely (meaning it has a perfect 15 degree angle), but the other side kept hitting the shoulder. My goal with reprofiling is to remove metal from that shoulder of the side that is not 15 degrees and to eventually make both sides exactly 15 degrees per side, making a 30 degree inclusive bevel. I tried and tried reprofiling with diamonds on the one side where the sharpie only came off near the shoulders (not the apex) and I achieved no better results. Now, I'm afraid I compromised my performance because when I look at the side with the already perfect 15 degrees, the bevel angle is smooth and shows no change in shape. But when I hold my knife up to a light and examine the side where the sharpie kept coming off the shoulder instead of the bevel completely, it seems like there's a weird angle change. It's hard to explain, but whenever I look at the messed up side, it's clear there's like a split in angle (from the shoulder to middle of the bevel, it's a different angle than from middle of bevel to the apex). I hope you know what I mean, if not I can explain further. Does this compromise performance? My goal is to get a perfect 30 degree inclusive back bevel and put a 40 degree microbevel on my blade, just like how the Sharpmaker was designed to.

I decided to move on and shrug it off and accept the one side being not exactly 15. I put a microbevel on my blade by doing about 20 strokes per side on the flat medium stone, 20 strokes per side on the flat fine stone, and 20 strokes per side on the flat ultra fine stone. My additional question is, how many strokes should I do to actually make a microbevel? On top of that, how do I know that I've actually got a microbevel?

After all this I could kind of slice paper fine, but I couldn't get it hair shaving sharp. I ran it down my leg and arm and the hairs wouldn't come off, so I'm wondering if anything I did screwed up performance. I apologize for my ignorance, I am a newbie and I am trying to take in as much information about sharpening as possible. Any input appreciated. Thank you!

[The Meat man]

Hi ManyReason, welcome to the forum!

Sometimes the edge grinds come a bit uneven from the factory. From your description, it sounds like one side of your knife is a perfect 15 degrees, while the other is a bit more. Being uneven like that may make sharpening a bit annoying, but it isn't uncommon and it won't affect the cutting performance at all.

You're doing the right thing with the Sharpie. From your description of the messed up side, sounds like you are making some progress on reprofiling it back to a true 15°. The angle transition you see there is proof that you're getting somewhere. It'll probably just take awhile; if the angle is around 20 degrees, trying to bring it back to 15 will mean removing a fair amount of material from the shoulder, which will just take time and patience.

As for the microbevel, as long as your knife isn't butter-knife-dull, 10 or 15 strokes per side TOTAL should be enough. (Maybe a few more depending on the steel.) The thing about microbevels is, the more strokes you do, the bigger the microbevel becomes until it isn't so "micro" after all. You want to do the bare minimum number of strokes, and what is even more VITALITY IMPORTANT is to make the strokes with as little pressure against the stone as humanly possible.

I'm wondering if your messed-up bevel might be 20 degrees or even higher. If it is, then trying to microbevel on the 40° setting won't work since it would only be touching one side. Try the Sharpie trick when microbeveling at the 40° setting and see if the stone is actually hitting the very apex on the wonky side. If not, then you'll have to either increase the angle (by stacking coins under one end of the Sharpmaker base), or work at reprofiling until that angle on the shoulder goes all the way to the apex. I recommend the latter.

[Wartstein]

Hi manyreasons,

Not only, but especially concerning reprofiling the method Lance shows in the vid that Ric linked for you in your first thread works well and quickly: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86247&p=1409870#p1409380
So you don´t necessarely have to do only downward strokes, but can utilize circular motions, while reprofiling (and just hitting the shoulders). Try to still keep the knife perpendicular to the ground though.

And again: Remember: Don´t use to much pressure, rather less than you might think is necessary, especially on the diamond rods!

[sal]

Hi ManyReason,

One of the things that I find many new people do is to put their head directly over the sharpener. If you are looking down on the left stone, your stroke will be straight up and down. If you look at the right stone without moving your head, you have drastically changed the angle. Step back about a foot so you can carefully make sure your strokes are holding the blade perpendicular to the table, as close as possible.

As mentioned, only a few strokes will give you a micro bevel. I rarely use a micro bevel at all. I suggested that you get a 10X - 12X loupe to get a closer look at what's going on with the edge. That makes a big difference. I never use a sharpy. Loupe is number one teacher. I am number two teacher.

If you cannot get a shaving sharp edge, you are doing something wrong. Did you watch the video?

sal

[ManyReason]

Thank you all for the replies. I will try continuing to rebevel. I did watch the Spyderco sharpmaker video via YouTube, all 4 parts. I will try this again to see if my results change

[ManyReason]

Hi ManyReason, welcome to the forum!

Sometimes the edge grinds come a bit uneven from the factory. From your description, it sounds like one side of your knife is a perfect 15 degrees, while the other is a bit more. Being uneven like that may make sharpening a bit annoying, but it isn't uncommon and it won't affect the cutting performance at all.

You're doing the right thing with the Sharpie. From your description of the messed up side, sounds like you are making some progress on reprofiling it back to a true 15°. The angle transition you see there is proof that you're getting somewhere. It'll probably just take awhile; if the angle is around 20 degrees, trying to bring it back to 15 will mean removing a fair amount of material from the shoulder, which will just take time and patience.

As for the microbevel, as long as your knife isn't butter-knife-dull, 10 or 15 strokes per side TOTAL should be enough. (Maybe a few more depending on the steel.) The thing about microbevels is, the more strokes you do, the bigger the microbevel becomes until it isn't so "micro" after all. You want to do the bare minimum number of strokes, and what is even more VITALITY IMPORTANT is to make the strokes with as little pressure against the stone as humanly possible.

I'm wondering if your messed-up bevel might be 20 degrees or even higher. If it is, then trying to microbevel on the 40° setting won't work since it would only be touching one side. Try the Sharpie trick when microbeveling at the 40° setting and see if the stone is actually hitting the very apex on the wonky side. If not, then you'll have to either increase the angle (by stacking coins under one end of the Sharpmaker base), or work at reprofiling until that angle on the shoulder goes all the way to the apex. I recommend the latter.

Hi, do you recommend when reprofiling to do equal strokes on both sides? When I reprofiled earlier I did more strokes on the side not 15 degrees, and the knife grind as a whole seemed off

[Wartstein]

Hi, do you recommend when reprofiling to do equal strokes on both sides? When I reprofiled earlier I did more strokes on the side not 15 degrees, and the knife grind as a whole seemed off

I am not "The Meat man", but if you actually reprofile, so before (!) you hit the apex but just the "shoulders" you can do as many strokes as you like or better said as needed on ONE side until you hit the apex (and then switch to the other side for reprofiling)

While reprofiling (hitting just the shoulders I mean) you can´t form a burr on the other side of the blade that would have to be removed!

Since you don´t have a lupe as Sal recommends but use the Sharpie method (which is fine imho): You can apply the Sharpie and work on just one side until you begin to see that you hit the apex and than switch to the other side. And as said above and is shown in Lances vid: You can use circular motions for that as long as you still manage to keep the blade vertical (and so keep the correct angle on the rods). It will be quicker than just downstrokes.

EDIT: I can´t emphasize enough: LIGHT pressure, especially with the diamond or CBN rods!

[The Meat man]

Hi, do you recommend when reprofiling to do equal strokes on both sides? When I reprofiled earlier I did more strokes on the side not 15 degrees, and the knife grind as a whole seemed off

If I were you I'd concentrate on the problem side and work on that until you've got it reprofiled all the way down to the apex. Since the other side is already where you want it at 15°, further sharpening on it would be useless and would unnecessarily wear down the edge.

Once you get that wonky side fixed up, then I'd go back to doing very light, alternate strokes until it's as sharp as you can get it. It might take a bit but you should be able to get it sharp enough to slice copier paper even before you go for a microbevel. Once there, a few very light, alternating strokes at the 40° setting will bring the edge to a razor.

It'll take time, but it'll be worth it in the end. All this stuff just takes practice. :)

[soc_monki]

I use down and up strokes. It decreases the time to reprofile by so much! And I mean I've used it on m4, and it was nothing. Took a little bit, but it worked great.

Just work on the wonky side first, then when you apex, do the other side until you get the apex more or less centered. Doesn't have to be exact, but if you have to take off as much steel as I think you do, it's going to be very far on one side.

Being that it is a lightweight, it shouldn't take too long. Take breaks though, if you get fatigued your edge will suffer. Be patient. You'll get through it!

Once you apex, microbevel on the 40 setting with the medium rods. Should pop hairs off your arm no problem. You can do fine and ultrafine as well, but I've been happy at just the mediums.

[ManyReason]

Thank you all for the replies. So far, here's what I've done:

I spent a few hours trying to reprofile the messed up side with the diamond rods. I used the flat sides of the diamond rods at 30 degrees and used light pressure, and made sure my knife was perfectly vertical the whole way through. I made many, many passes and saw the sharpie very slowly coming off closer and closer to the apex. As of the time of this writing, there's is still a tiny bit of sharpie in certain parts of the blade very close to the apex. Overall, it's a big improvement: I no longer see a shift in angle like I did before and I can confidently say most of the bevel on the messed up side is at 15 degrees, but the tiny bit near the apex is not. I tried reprofiling and reprofiling and I can't seem to get that last bit of bevel near the apex to be 15 degrees. I once again put sharpie and I can take off the sharpie when reprofiling at 30 for most of the bevel, but a tiny bit is left. I also used Lance's method of up and down and circular motion a bit, but most reprofiling was done with just down strokes and also some up strokes. Now, examining the edge, parts of the knife seem to be undersharpened or overshadowed. I'll attach a photo, but the part near the choil seems uneven with the other parts. I also noticed the messed up side has uneven bevels compared to the side that was perfectly 15 degrees out of the box. This doesn't bother me much because it's aesthetic. I decided to see if I can go to medium rods at 30. I used medium rods pointed then flat, and still not achieving a sharp edge. It kind of push cuts paper and doesn't cut paper cleanly. Any suggestions? I'm tired now as the reprofiling took a few hours (break times included) so I will go back to the diamonds tomorrow to see if I can completely finish that messed up side once and for all. Also, the tip of my knife still has a good amount of sharpie left near the apex, and so does near the choil. I think the two ends of the blade (choil and tip) are my weak spots... I'm getting inconsistent sharpening there

[ManyReason]

Here's a photo of that messed up side: bevel is mostly good towards the middle, (maybe a very mini line of sharpie not seen on camera), but the choil and tip have inconsistent sharpening and leave large sharpie marks. Link: https://imgur.com/a/YFO4NjK


EDIT: There are two images. The first one (tip facing right) is the messed up side that I'm trying to get a 15 degree bevel on. The second image (tip facing left) is the perfect side out of the box (the sharpie removes 99% so it's perfect 15 degrees)

[ManyReason]

Edit now... I'm positive my whole bevel is 30 degrees now. It took a lot of reprofiling but after putting sharpie on both sides, after a lot of passes the sharpie comes off on both sides at 30 degrees. Now, I can't cut paper when coming off the diamond rods. I'm making sure to progressively use very light pressure to knock off the burr, but I can't cut paper now off the diamond rods (I want to be able to at least cut paper before moving on the polishing the 30, then putting microbevel at 40). Any tips? The best that happens is I can kind of cut paper on one side but when using my left hand the other side can't cut paper at all

[prndltech]

Loupe is number one teacher. I am number two teacher.

[ManyReason]

I have ordered one and it will arrive monday, can't wait to use it

[ManyReason]

UPDATE: Good news (I think). After reprofiling my bevel to 30 (15 DPS), I found that my blade still wasn't sharp. I had the flexcut leather strop, applied some compound, and a few low angle and soft passes put my edge pretty sharp to both sides (however after some cutting on paper, one side wasn't sharp immediately... Burr?). I then polished my 30 degree bevel using about 30 strokes on flat gray stones, 30 on white stones, and finally finished off on ultra fine. I then stropped again and the edge was sharp (couldn't shave hair, but I could cut paper relatively easily. Honestly at this point I'm satisfied with that. Although I would like it to be shaving hair sharp one day). But again after a while of cutting paper I found one side (left side) to go dull on the paper. The other side (right side) was fine. I then stropped again and put a 40 degree microbevel on. All I did was take 5 light strokes (5 strokes per side) on the gray flat stones at 40 degrees. Stropped again, and it seems like my edge is holding up well (haven't used it in EDC yet, will probably update when I start using it more). I am satisfied with all the work I've done... Especially reprofiling that whole side. When I put my blade under light both bevels seem pretty clean and relatively shiny :) , once that loupe comes on Monday like Sal recommended, I'll examine my edge further and update again if needed. So far I'm impressed with the help and community friendliness on this forum, I'll continue to learn and hopefully be like you guys one day. I'll be back with more updates

[Wartstein]

UPDATE: Good news (I think). ....

Great that it worked out for you!!
I think in hindsight it might be a good thing that you really got into sharpening and reprofiling right from the beginning of your "Spyderco-journey", even if it took a bit of an effort obviously...

You say you want "to be like you guys [concerning sharpening] once day" - be assured, I am still not at all like many of the folks here when it comes to sharpening, but have only very basic skills, but I am happy with my results on the Sharpmaker! If you try a bit more and check with your lupe, I am sure you´ll soon get to hair-shaving-sharpness, it is really no problem with the Sharpmaker and just a bit experience (hair WHITTLING is a different story though... :rolleyes: )

/ Tbh: I am not sure I get what you mean by "one side [of the bevel] is sharp, but the other not" ? For me it is like either the whole bevel "is sharp" or the whole bevel is not

[ManyReason]

UPDATE: Good news (I think). ....

Great that it worked out for you!!
I think in hindsight it might be a good thing that you really got into sharpening and reprofiling right from the beginning of your "Spyderco-journey", even if it took a bit of an effort obviously...

You say you want "to be like you guys [concerning sharpening] once day" - be assured, I am still not at all like many of the folks here when it comes to sharpening, but have only very basic skills, but I am happy with my results on the Sharpmaker! If you try a bit more and check with your lupe, I am sure you´ll soon get to hair-shaving-sharpness, it is really no problem with the Sharpmaker and just a bit experience (hair WHITTLING is a different story though... :rolleyes: )

/ Tbh: I am not sure I get what you mean by "one side [of the bevel] is sharp, but the other not" ? For me it is like either the whole bevel "is sharp" or the whole bevel is not

Thank you! What I mean is if I cut standard printer paper I'm right handed and I would cut from left to right at an angle, like slicing down to the bottom left corner in that direction. That "side" I'm slicing with is pretty sharp. But when I switch hands and slice the paper from right to left towards the bottom left corner in that direction, it suddenly wants to cut paper at some parts but other parts just catches and doesn't cut it clean. I think the microbevel and a lot of stropping helped, but I still need to use my knife more to see the real world results

[soc_monki]

The more you use the sharpmaker, the more you sharpen period, the better you will get. Don't worry too much about being able to slice paper with your right and left hands. I concern myself with does the edge feel the same on both sides? Example, I use my thumb to check the edge. Using my right thumb, I run it perpendicular to the edge, left to right. If it's Grabby (or sticky) it's pretty sharp! Turn the knife with the point towards me and check the left side of the edge. Does it feel the same? More or less "sticky"? If the thumb slides right off, the burr is on that side, and I need to get it off. If it feels the same, the burr should be gone, or close to it.

Learning about the burr and how to feel it helped me a ton! A loupe helped as well, and the sharpie method. Once you figure it out and get that ah ha! moment it will all be good.

[ManyReason]

The more you use the sharpmaker, the more you sharpen period, the better you will get. Don't worry too much about being able to slice paper with your right and left hands. I concern myself with does the edge feel the same on both sides? Example, I use my thumb to check the edge. Using my right thumb, I run it perpendicular to the edge, left to right. If it's Grabby (or sticky) it's pretty sharp! Turn the knife with the point towards me and check the left side of the edge. Does it feel the same? More or less "sticky"? If the thumb slides right off, the burr is on that side, and I need to get it off. If it feels the same, the burr should be gone, or close to it.

Learning about the burr and how to feel it helped me a ton! A loupe helped as well, and the sharpie method. Once you figure it out and get that ah ha! moment it will all be good.

Thanks I'll try this but I'm scared I'll cut myself

[soc_monki]

Thanks I'll try this but I'm scared I'll cut myself

You won't, just don't use any pressure. You're just trying to see if the edge tries to grab your thumb. No need to press down or anything.