Spyderco serration history

[Halfneck]

During my time with the 101st Airborne(Air Assault) I saw a lot of soldiers carrying serrated knives for cutting line. Choices available at the PX were either Cold Steel or Spyderco. A lot would go with Cold Steel as it was cheaper. Most would later regret it because their serrations were difficult to sharpen. Spyderco serrations were easily touched up in the field with one of those small triangle rod sharpeners you could get at the PX.

[sal]

Hi Halfneck,

Thanx for your service.

Certainly I'm biased, but in my opinion, nothings works as well for sharpening Spyderco serrations as the Sharpmaker used as I show in the DVD.

sal

[sal]

Thanx for the kind words.

Hey Rusty Iron,

"All serrations are not created equal". My suggestion would be to:

1) Purchase a serrated Spyderco. I would suggest a Delica or Endela full flat serrated.
2) Purchase a full Sharpmaker set, watch the video and use the Sharpmaker as I show on the video. Just using the stones without the system has some issues. Using just the small triangles that Halfneck was referring to also has issues with consistency. A car functions best when you have all of the parts working together. If you leave out the tires or the motor, results will be less than ideal.

If you are not happy with the results. Send them to me with your receipt and I'll buy them back from you.

sal

[curlyhairedboy]

Thanks for the portal into Spyderco history, Sal.

I once took a week and carried nothing but an Atlantic Salt. That was enough to convince me that whatever my primary knife was, I always needed to carry something else in Spyderedge.

What impresses me the most about serrations is how they completely eliminate the dangerous sliding that can occur when using a plain edge on a harder/more resilient material like tough plastic. I feel much safer feeling that edge bite in immediately!

No slip, grip and rip!

[James Y]

Thanks, Sal, for the history!

There is no better partnership than the Sharpmaker and the Spyderedge. Period. The Sharpmaker system is the only sharpening system I use, and it’s served me very well for around 20 years now.

I recall reading one particular book about “tactical” knives, and the author mentioned Spyderco serrated knives, but said that serrations wear out and are nearly impossible to resharpen; but if resharpened, they are never as good as they originally were. I don’t get that at all. The Sharpmaker is the easy answer to that. Perhaps that author wasn’t even aware of it, or had one and used it incorrectly. I don’t remember which book it was; it’s been a long time.

I never liked the Cold Steel serrations. Besides the difficulty of resharpening the teeth, they are far more easily broken in use.

Jim

[sal]

So many "Expert"s out there don't know as much as they think they do. :rolleyes:

sal

[Jazz]

I think a lot of us originally stayed away from, or were turned off of serrations because we didn’t know how EASY they are to sharpen with Sal’s tools and teaching. Also, when they’re sharp, they cut well, with less, or no snagging. I know I did a complete 180° turn with them. I’ve tested on various things, and wow, do they work.

[Wartstein]

Thanks, Sal, for the history!

....

I recall reading one particular book about “tactical” knives, and the author mentioned Spyderco serrated knives, but said that serrations wear out and are nearly impossible to resharpen; but if resharpened, they are never as good as they originally were. I don’t get that at all. The Sharpmaker is the easy answer to that. Perhaps that author wasn’t even aware of it, or had one and used it incorrectly. I don’t remember which book it was; it’s been a long time.

----

:eek: ... I find that they actually get even better after some sharpening processes...

[James Y]

So many "Expert"s out there don't know as much as they think they do. :rolleyes:

sal

I agree, Sal. Unfortunately, incorrect information like that can adversely affect the decisions of many who may take it as fact because it’s in print. I know I was anti-serrations until 1998 or ‘99, because I had also believed that serrations would be impossible to resharpen. But with Spyderco’s serration pattern it’s easy...as easy as resharpening a PE blade, and sometimes even easier.

:eek: ... I find that they actually get even better after some sharpening processes...

Yes, that’s been my observation as well. Although I still prefer SE that starts off not overly aggressive out of the box. :)

Jim

[RustyIron]

1) Purchase a serrated Spyderco. I would suggest a Delica or Endela full flat serrated.
2) Purchase a full Sharpmaker set, watch the video and use the Sharpmaker as I show on the video. Just using the stones without the system has some issues. Using just the small triangles that Halfneck was referring to also has issues with consistency. A car functions best when you have all of the parts working together. If you leave out the tires or the motor, results will be less than ideal.

If you are not happy with the results. Send them to me with your receipt and I'll buy them back from you.

Ha. You weren't kidding when you said you were a pitchman! But don't worry, I'll take you up on that in a couple months. I'm still relishing the "new knife stoke" from the Manix 2 Sprint and the Native 5 LW Sprint. Once I get used to them in my day-to-day adventures, I'll focus on something with teeth.

Years ago I discovered that if I just snatch up everything that catches my eye, I appreciate little of it. That commandment about covetousness is one that requires constant vigilance.

[Sonorum]

I think a lot of us originally stayed away from, or were turned off of serrations because we didn’t know how EASY they are to sharpen with Sal’s tools and teaching. Also, when they’re sharp, they cut well, with less, or no snagging. I know I did a complete 180° turn with them. I’ve tested on various things, and wow, do they work.

Knowing your part in developing the jazzlica, have your "new" appreciation of serrations changed anything for you regarding the wharncliffe? Do you still use it? Do you now prefer the serrated version?

I like a plain edge wharncliffe, but with serrations I like a bit of belly to let the teeth work over the material instead of just catching and ripping.

[Sonorum]

1) Purchase a serrated Spyderco. I would suggest a Delica or Endela full flat serrated.
2) Purchase a full Sharpmaker set, watch the video and use the Sharpmaker as I show on the video. Just using the stones without the system has some issues. Using just the small triangles that Halfneck was referring to also has issues with consistency. A car functions best when you have all of the parts working together. If you leave out the tires or the motor, results will be less than ideal.

If you are not happy with the results. Send them to me with your receipt and I'll buy them back from you.

Ha. You weren't kidding when you said you were a pitchman! But don't worry, I'll take you up on that in a couple months. I'm still relishing the "new knife stoke" from the Manix 2 Sprint and the Native 5 LW Sprint. Once I get used to them in my day-to-day adventures, I'll focus on something with teeth.

Years ago I discovered that if I just snatch up everything that catches my eye, I appreciate little of it. That commandment about covetousness is one that requires constant vigilance.

I agree, getting two knives at the same time can often mean half the joy.

[JacksonKnives]

...
We knew that there were some advantages to serrations, so we really studied "teeth" when developing our sharpener. The multiple sized serration we traced back to Germany in the '40's. Another "Pitchman" named Ronny Popeil ( Ronco - a great inventor, pitchman and producer) developed a kitchen knife based on that concept called the "Feather touch" knife. It was a really effective Kitchen cutting tool, though inexpensively made. Most of the knife Pitchmen bought and sold his knife. It had one large serration and one small serration.

Then another Pitchmen named John Spyker (another really good Pitchman) designed a larger knife with one large serration and two small serrations called the "Sharpcut carving and serving knife". Made in Ohio, John had "broken the Ex" (exclusive) of Popeil's knife, sold them for less money and the Pitchmen eventually gravitated to the new "Pitch Knife".

Then another company designed and created a similar and larger model promoted on Television called the "Ginsu" knife. All based on the multiple sized serrated edge. Gail and I with microscopes studied serrations to determine why they worked better and how to sharpen them. ...

Sal,
I saw some interesting scalloped edges on 16th and 17th century arms & armor (mostly Italian, if I remember correctly) when I had a chance to visit the Wallace collection in London a few decades back.

They looked a lot like the big-small-small pattern you use for the Spyder Edge, and I've wondered ever since if there was a connection.

Sadly, I didn't get any pictures, and the notebook with all the collection reference numbers I wrote down is long gone. I'm not finding anything like the pieces I remember in a quick web search. I can't even remember now if there were any sword edges with the same pattern, I'm pretty sure the most similar were on breastplates.

The pattern is also very reminiscent of the pattern left by some pinking shears for finishing fabric edges that my mother had. (Can't remember the brand, but I remember the similarity to my first SE Endura in the late 90s distinctly.) Any connection there?

[ChrisinHove]

I grew up near a big showground, and our house - a seasonal B&B, was often full of stall-holders. They would take my brother & I into the showground when they were setting up, and bring us back after close.

Our pocket money was too minimal to waste on food, so we would hang out in front of the knife stalls and eat all the fresh fruit and veg the pitch-men had sliced and chopped during their demonstrations!

Happy days! I’m not sure that many 8 & 10 yr olds would be allowed that sort of freedom, now, sadly.

[Doc Dan]

The other thread answered one of my biggest questions. That serrations on the "show" side direct the edge away from your other hand and body when cutting through something.

I guess I will ask, with all the other serration patterns out there, what are your thoughts on them? Is there another type of pattern you might give a shot at, or does the spyderege still outperform these other patterns?

Hi VooDooChild,

We use a single size serration on our bread knife because testing in Japan by our kitchen knife maker indicated that on hot fresh bread, it worked better. We haven't tested this ourselves. Of all of the other serrations we've tested, we found that angles were very important, edge geometry was also important and the height and width ratio was important, as was the "pointiness" of the tooth. With those considerations, I would still opt for the set-up we are using. If something comes along that we think would perform better, we would switch.

I also maintain that sharpening those serrations with a sharpmaker for 10 -20 strokes on the corners of the white stone improves the performance considerably by softening the sharp teeth.

sal

Sal, I appreciate this thread. I have a question about the serrated bread knife. I bake bread at least twice weekly. I have not tried the Spyderco bread knife, but I have tried a number of them from other makers and they do not do well on hot bread. The best I have found is a very thin Santuko that is sharp enough to pick up hair and cut it. So, my question is, why is the serrated a Spyderco more efficient than other bread knives? Is the knife very thin bladed and thin behind the edge? Is it that the serrated pattern is more efficient? Also, how would it be more efficient than the Santuko?

[Jazz]

Knowing your part in developing the jazzlica, have your "new" appreciation of serrations changed anything for you regarding the wharncliffe? Do you still use it? Do you now prefer the serrated version?

I like a plain edge wharncliffe, but with serrations I like a bit of belly to let the teeth work over the material instead of just catching and ripping.

Funny you should mention it. Sal sent me a PE and a SE. That was when I hated serrations. I thought, well, he's a smart guy and sent me the serrated one for a reason. I took it to work, tried it out, and that was my turning point. I use the wharncliffe Delica every day at work (laid off right now ), and I never tire of its performance. I use the plain edge at work - smoother for cardboard, but I use the SE now and then, among my other serrated Spydies. The most impressed I've been with a serrated Spydie is the wharncliffe Endura. It cuts so well, it's a bit scary. I highly recommend it, and the Delica. I seem to prefer the FFG straight edges with serrations, as opposed to a bit of belly, but I'm still getting to know them. :) So, another thank you to Sal for pushing me, and educating me. :cool:

[SolidState]

Hi Sal,

Are you buddies with those pitchmen you listed? I literally grew up watching infomercials, and would take a nap just to be able to be up late when they were on every summer during my gradeschool through highschool days. Pitch men apparently make up a surprising share of my heroes, and they significantly influenced how I live my life in education. My sense is that pitch men are the best educators in the world. They frequently prove that education and knowledge are different, but when knowledge and education overlap in truth, pitch men are some of the most amazing humans around. When pitch men turn their skills toward evil, well, you can turn on C-Span and see for yourself.

I guess that explains a lot about why I like you and your company so much. You found the right thing to believe in, and the pitch became the overlap of education with knowledge.
Cheers Sal!

[sal]

Hi SolidState,

Malcom Gladwell had a book out on pitchmen. Many of whom I knew. A good read, at least for me. I found most of Gladwell's book very good reads and I highly recommend them. I would suggest beginning with "Blink".

Hey Jazz.

I thought sending one to you might get your attention. Thanx for spurring on the Jazzelica. :D

sal

[Donut]

The bread truck must have had something to do with you being drawn to serrations. :D

[sal]

The other thread answered one of my biggest questions. That serrations on the "show" side direct the edge away from your other hand and body when cutting through something.

I guess I will ask, with all the other serration patterns out there, what are your thoughts on them? Is there another type of pattern you might give a shot at, or does the spyderege still outperform these other patterns?

Hi VooDooChild,

We use a single size serration on our bread knife because testing in Japan by our kitchen knife maker indicated that on hot fresh bread, it worked better. We haven't tested this ourselves. Of all of the other serrations we've tested, we found that angles were very important, edge geometry was also important and the height and width ratio was important, as was the "pointiness" of the tooth. With those considerations, I would still opt for the set-up we are using. If something comes along that we think would perform better, we would switch.

I also maintain that sharpening those serrations with a sharpmaker for 10 -20 strokes on the corners of the white stone improves the performance considerably by softening the sharp teeth.

sal

Sal, I appreciate this thread. I have a question about the serrated bread knife. I bake bread at least twice weekly. I have not tried the Spyderco bread knife, but I have tried a number of them from other makers and they do not do well on hot bread. The best I have found is a very thin Santuko that is sharp enough to pick up hair and cut it. So, my question is, why is the serrated a Spyderco more efficient than other bread knives? Is the knife very thin bladed and thin behind the edge? Is it that the serrated pattern is more efficient? Also, how would it be more efficient than the Santuko?

Hi Doc,

I would suggest trying out a Spyderco bread knife. Also sharpen it a few strokes on the Sharpmaker. I can offer some theory:

1) Very thin blades make a big difference. It took many years for me to make the makers in Seki to do them the way I wanted. They felt they knew better than me how to make knives, since they were 2nd generation. Eventually the popularity of the brand and serrated edges convinced them to let me lead. I always appreciate their opinion. But now at least we discuss it.

2) I can only tell you that people that make hot bread say it's better. That's why I suggest you try it. It's quite thin and an excellent kitchen steel.
Gail is a excellent cook (I mean really good) and she kind of drove the bread knife design. Our next one will be a little wider which Gail says helps for directional stability. (CQI).

3) Serrations take a little more thought:

A) On a plain edge knife, the center of effort (cutting effort) goes in only one direction. Down at 90 degrees to the cutting table. It might vary
due to the moving motion of the blade?
B) On a serrated edge, the center of effort constantly changes in an arc, cutting the material from many different directions very quickly. The
center of effort to the material is 90% to the top of the shape of the serration, which is an arc.
C) The edge geometry, angles and arcs all make a difference. "When one of our serrated edges is proper and finely tunes, it will impress".

sal