Serration Disappointment

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James Y
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby James Y » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:02 pm

One knife I was really looking forward to getting in SE is the Endela. Unfortunately, for now, since I’m out of work indefinitely, any possible future knife purchases are also on the shelf indefinitely.

I’ve been using SE knives since 1998, and a good serrated Spyderco knife makes a tremendous tool. For many chores, I would accept nothing less.

Jim

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Surfingringo
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Surfingringo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:09 pm

There are lots of reasons for the serrations being ground on the “presentation” side. Not least of which is that that keeps the knife (when being used by a right hander) from drifting into the body of the user or the hand holding the material. I encounter this regularly while using my serrated knives and have more than once noted situations (like the knife pushing through material quicker than I expected) where I would certainly have cut my body or my off hand had they been cut on the other side. As it was, the knife veered harmlessly off to the right.

You may end up loving your new serrated Spyderco and you may not, but I would definitely recommend withholding judgement until you have given it a fair bit of use and grown accustomed to its performance. :spyder:

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Wartstein
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Wartstein » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:17 pm

James Y wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:02 pm
One knife I was really looking forward to getting in SE is the Endela. Unfortunately, for now, since I’m out of work indefinitely, any possible future knife purchases are also on the shelf indefinitely.

I’ve been using SE knives since 1998, and a good serrated Spyderco knife makes a tremendous tool. For many chores, I would accept nothing less.

Jim

Sorry for you!

I am sure things will get better and YOU an Endela SE, and you´ll love it! :) It´s the knife that really converted me to SE
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

Tgmr05
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Tgmr05 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:16 pm

The first spyderco I bought was se. Thought it looked funky, but could not find one in pe. Took a while, but came to really like it. Will always have a se spyderco.

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JRinFL
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby JRinFL » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:29 pm

Surfingringo wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:09 pm
There are lots of reasons for the serrations being ground on the “presentation” side. Not least of which is that that keeps the knife (when being used by a right hander) from drifting into the body of the user or the hand holding the material. ... :spyder:
Thank you for that clear explanation. That reason had never occurred to me before.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder:

Monty
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Monty » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:06 pm

The Deacon wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:49 am
Not a fan of chisel grinds, so haven't really looked at enough of them to know, but how many knife companies making chisel ground plain edge folders make them ground "correctly" for right hand users? How many make chisel ground plain edge fixed blades that way? Customs may be a different story, but the only "correct" chisel grinds I can recall seeing on production knives were on Japanese kitchen knives. Everything else was done for show rather than for go.
Emerson has done a couple very small batches. In most instances of use I don't notice a difference between a right or left side chisel grind. Carving/whittling is one of the few exceptions and I don't typically use pocket knives for that anyway.

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sal
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby sal » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:49 pm

Hi JR, Gringo,

Nice observation. That was the first thing we realized when we made our first serrated kitchen knife back in 1981. Which was the first and main reason for putting the serrations ground on the front side. So the knife gravitated away from the hand holding what was being cut. Chisel ground (Hamaguri) knives in Japan are ground that way so the food falls away to the right.

It's actually been discussed on this and other forums a number of times for the past 20 years.

In fact, I explained that reasoning very clearly a week or so ago to one of our forumites in an email.

sal

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Wartstein
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Wartstein » Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:26 pm

Sal, Lance and others, thanks for the explanations for why the serrations are ground on the side they are!
As said earlier, I love SE in Spydercos, and how they perform but sometimes wondered what is the exact reason for them being put on the showside.
Now I know... :)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

James Y
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby James Y » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:55 am

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:17 pm
James Y wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:02 pm
One knife I was really looking forward to getting in SE is the Endela. Unfortunately, for now, since I’m out of work indefinitely, any possible future knife purchases are also on the shelf indefinitely.

I’ve been using SE knives since 1998, and a good serrated Spyderco knife makes a tremendous tool. For many chores, I would accept nothing less.

Jim

Sorry for you!

I am sure things will get better and YOU an Endela SE, and you´ll love it! :) It´s the knife that really converted me to SE
No need to be sorry! :) In the past, I’ve gone years without purchasing any new knives. I love a good SE knife, but have never owned a SE Spyderco with a FFG blade. Which to me seems an ideal combination. Not to mention that from the pics, the serrations in the Endela look to be grounded perfectly, the way I like a Spyderedge; that is, not overly pointy.

In the meantime, I’m enjoying the knives I have while on lockdown.

Jim

Mike Blue
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Mike Blue » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:13 am

sal wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:49 pm
...It's actually been discussed on this and other forums a number of times for the past 20 years.

In fact, I explained that reasoning very clearly a week or so ago to one of our forumites in an email.

sal
In all the times we've talked about stuff, I'd never considered the SE question. Then someone mentioned CATRA data. Going to the source eliminates a lot of wrong turns and I appreciate your patience explaining the process my friend. It was very helpful to experience something new to me. To hear the source explanation for the meaning behind the choices was priceless.

The features or characteristics of a Spyderco knife all get studied attention if they affect form and function.

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sal
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby sal » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:51 am

Thanx Mike,

Appreciate the kind comments. I guess one of the differences between Spyderco and some other businesses, is that we're all about the product. Many companies consider a product successful if it makes money. The more money, the better. Gail and Eric and I believe in the philosophy that if we make the product as good as it can be, the money will take care of itself. That's why we're constantly improving the product (CQI). Things just don't "happen". Everything we do is thought about a great deal before action is taken.

Also, I have no problem explaining the thought behind anything we do. "The goal in life is to be as consistent as the sun, and transparent like the air".

sal

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby MacLaren » Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:29 pm

That philosophy is as good as it gets Mr.Glesser.
Success/Money is a byproduct of that philosophy.
That's why I love Spyderco.

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RustyIron
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby RustyIron » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:54 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:51 am
"The goal in life is to be as consistent as the sun, and transparent like the air".
Yup.

ugaarguy
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby ugaarguy » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:29 pm

Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:23 pm
I thought I wanted serrations ground on the back side, because in some situations like trying to carve something it would put the flat side of the blade down against the material (as a righty). However I think for sharpening purposes I'm stronger at holding a blade steady on the presentation side and since serrations are sharpened with an offset ratio of strokes that favor the ground side, I can live with them being ground on the front. Practically speaking I've been carrying SE exclusively now for about 2.5 years and haven't run into any day to day situations where this is an issue.

The chisel grind walk is there, but I guess I've just accepted it. It's a minor annoyance that can be countered by holding the knife at at angle in most cases. I've also found that simply not focusing so much about it and just use the knife that I typically don't even notice it (this is especially true if I'm a person who is maybe a little jaded by all the SE trash talk out there and am a little biased towards PE and are looking for reasons to disqualify SE). If you grind the serrations on the other side, then the edge will just walk the other way, and then I guess the lefties are just SOL.

Bottom line is if you're going into SE use with a negative opinion and preconceived notions about how poorly they are to use, then that's probably what you'll experience. It's like one of my favorite quotes;

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right."
-Henry Ford
If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd see that I was disappointed because I had a positive opinion and preconception based on the numerous positive threads and comments here regarding full SE blades.

In contrast to your Henry Ford quote, I thought I could and I was wrong.

ugaarguy
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby ugaarguy » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:01 pm

sal wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:05 pm
Hi Ugaarguy,

I have been studying, sharpening, building, refining, improving, using and selling serrated edges for more than 40 years. I brought them onto the knife world. I have sold millions of them to thousands of satisfied customers. I have done all of this with much thought, study, testing and use.

Now you buy your first serrated knife and the first day you get it, you say that all of these years I have been doing it wrong.

Whodathunk?
Sal, my opening post to this thread has clearly insulted you. That wasn't my intent, and I apologize. I was simply frustrated from the reality of my first full SE knife falling short of expectations. I read the thread you started in response to this thread. I've re-read some the other threads on using full SE blades. Many of the comments in those threads advocating using a Sharpmaker the way you demonstrate in the instructional video, to soften the serrations. You said to do the same thing in the thread you recently started.

I've also compared the in hand feel of the Dragonfly 2 to some similarly sized knives that I own. The DF2 doesn't feel as good in my hand as these other knives.

So, rather than relying on a Spyderco competitor's triangular ceramic sharpener, and trying to fairly evaluate your serrations with a knife that isn't comfortable in my hand, I've made additional purchases. I've ordered a Sharpmaker, and a Native 5 Salt full SE (a knife that I already know feels good in my hand). With that order, I added a red handled 4.5" serrated utility knife from Spyderco's kitchen classics line. So, I have a knife I know I'll like the ergos of on the way. I have the kitchen utility knife which I think I'll like, and in one my favorite colors to psychologically increase the appeal, to compare to some RH ground fully serrated European kitchen knives I have. You've made another sale. I'll give your serrations a fair shake. I hope that I like them. I want to like them. If it I didn't want to like your serrations I wouldn't have ordered that DF2 to try a full SE blade.

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sal
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby sal » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:19 pm

Hi Ugaarguy,

Apology accepted. Sorry for your original disappointment. I hope I can win you over.

sal

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:30 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:51 am
Thanx Mike,

Appreciate the kind comments. I guess one of the differences between Spyderco and some other businesses, is that we're all about the product. Many companies consider a product successful if it makes money. The more money, the better. Gail and Eric and I believe in the philosophy that if we make the product as good as it can be, the money will take care of itself. That's why we're constantly improving the product (CQI). Things just don't "happen". Everything we do is thought about a great deal before action is taken.

Also, I have no problem explaining the thought behind anything we do. "The goal in life is to be as consistent as the sun, and transparent like the air".

sal
Beautiful Soul _/\_


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