Serration Disappointment

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ugaarguy
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Serration Disappointment

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:52 pm

My first fully serrated Spydie, a Dragonfly 2, was delivered today. I'm a disappointed with how the serrations are cut / ground into the blade. They're ground in on one side only, as most of y'all know. This creates a chisel ground. The chisel grind is done on the "show" side of the blade. As I made my first cuts with the knife, I was reminded of why this the wrong way to do a chisel grind. For a right hander (most of world's population), the chisel grind should be on the other side of the blade for cuts pushing / slicing away from oneself. Further, since I've cut with the knife, it's not returnable. At least I made this mistake with a Dragonfly and not a more expensive knife like a Native 5 Salt or a Caribbean. I'll definitely be getting a plain edge when I eventually buy a Native 5 Salt.

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby TkoK83Spy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:19 pm

Really?? This is surprising to read. You had to have known this is how the knife was ground?

Personally I find pull cuts best with SE blades.

Did you try touching it up, maybe a small burr or wire edge on the scallop's?
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby PeaceInOurTime » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:27 pm

Is your only/primary issue with Spyderco's serrations that they are chisel ground on the show/left side?

Chisel grinds will never cut straight on their own. It's become second nature for me to hold SE blades at the correct angle to cut straight, but I know there are many people who find it difficult to do this (or just prefer not to adjust to it, etc.).

Now that you mention it, I'm curious if anyone has ever successfully made normal V-ground serrations...

Personally, I've grown to appreciate chisel grinds/chisel edges (at least for my pocket knives). It's almost ridiculous how easy they are to maintain and they perform fine for my uses.
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:39 pm

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:19 pm
Really?? This is surprising to read. You had to have known this is how the knife was ground?

Personally I find pull cuts best with SE blades.

Did you try touching it up, maybe a small burr or wire edge on the scallop's?
I knew it was how they were ground, I just wasn't thinking about it when I ordered the darn thing. I was caught up in the hype of the recent threads on how awesome fulyl serrated blades are. My first impression is that they're annoying. I'll make myself keep using it, and maybe it'll grow on me.

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby VooDooChild » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:53 pm

The argument for serrations being on one side vs the other has been around for a long time. I also wont lie, I do think there is some merit in putting them on the opposite side.

Ideally I would like for serrations to be ground on both sides.

With that being said...

I have used a lot of serrated blades. Some on the "show" side some on the back side. Some had different serration patterns as well.

I have NEVER had a problem with serrations on the show side in right hand use, if the goal is to simply cut something in two.

Most of the arguments I hear for putting serrations on the other side in terms of a chisel grind revolve around push cuts. I personally havent found a need to push cut serrations where this is a concern.

If there is a need for me to carry serrations, then for me, it is a pocket saw. Simply making one thing two things as quickly as I can. I have not found the side the serrations are on to effect this in any way.

All of the rope and line I have cut in the water with serrated edges never cared wich side of the knife they were ground in.

I get where you are coming from. But I will say the side they are ground on, for me, seems to be more of an on paper argument and not something I have ever seen stop a knife from actually cutting something.

What if they were grinded both sides?

The argument they should be on the opposite side does make some good points I will give it that.

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Wartstein » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:08 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:52 pm
My first fully serrated Spydie, a Dragonfly 2, was delivered today. I'm a disappointed with how the serrations are cut / ground into the blade. ....
I am sorry that SE does not work for you!

But I am also a bit surprised:
I am one of quite many people who shared their love for serrated edges here (in my case especially in ffg) on Spyderco knives. For me that was totally unexpected: I wanted an Endela and thought "well, why not try SE", but did not expect much, rather figured that I would probably not like it.
The Endela SE arrived and I was honestly just blown away immidiately by its for me superior performance in almost any cutting task.
Again, I did not expect that at a all! It was just the practical experience that convinced me instantly despite I was rather biased against SE initially. And I am really not a collector, but a knife user and mainly judge my folders by their performance above anything else.

But I am with you in that I always think that SE would perhaps perform even better (for a Righty) if the chisel grind was on the other side of the blade.
But since it works so well for me as it is, even in tasks like whittling (making a pointy stick for example) that does not bother me at all.

If I would loose all of my Spydies and could get them once more, without any doubt the vast majority of them I´d take in SE now.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Wartstein » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:12 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:53 pm
The argument for serrations being on one side vs the other has been around for a long time. I also wont lie, I do think there is some merit in putting them on the opposite side.

Ideally I would like for serrations to be ground on both sides.

...
I am not so sure about this (but can´t tell, cause I never had or even saw a knife with serrations ground on both sides):

Probably just one factor why (again, for me) Spydercos SE is superior to PE in most tasks exactly IS the chisel grind that makes for a much more acute angle?!

One additional advantage of the chisel grind SE: Easier or let´s say quicker to sharpen on a Sharpmaker than PE (V edge)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby VooDooChild » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:23 pm

Wartstein wrote:
VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:53 pm
The argument for serrations being on one side vs the other has been around for a long time. I also wont lie, I do think there is some merit in putting them on the opposite side.

Ideally I would like for serrations to be ground on both sides.

...
I am not so sure about this (but can´t tell, cause I never had or even saw a knife with serrations ground on both sides):

Probably just one factor why (again, for me) Spydercos SE is superior to PE in most tasks exactly IS the chisel grind that makes for a much more acute angle?!

One additional advantage of the chisel grind SE: Easier or let´s say quicker to sharpen on a Sharpmaker than PE (V edge)
Its just from the push cut argument of not having the edge want to cut more towards one side or the other. Might be better for sharpening as well. Symmetry tends to be good. Once again in use, It really doesnt matter to me much. I can cut with serrations on any side or both. Its all about agressive cutting.

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Doc Dan » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:33 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:52 pm
My first fully serrated Spydie, a Dragonfly 2, was delivered today. I'm a disappointed with how the serrations are cut / ground into the blade. They're ground in on one side only, as most of y'all know. This creates a chisel ground. The chisel grind is done on the "show" side of the blade. As I made my first cuts with the knife, I was reminded of why this the wrong way to do a chisel grind. For a right hander (most of world's population), the chisel grind should be on the other side of the blade for cuts pushing / slicing away from oneself. Further, since I've cut with the knife, it's not returnable. At least I made this mistake with a Dragonfly and not a more expensive knife like a Native 5 Salt or a Caribbean. I'll definitely be getting a plain edge when I eventually buy a Native 5 Salt.
I agree that the serrations are on the wrong side. Cutting with a chisel grind forces the knife sideways through material.
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Doc Dan » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:36 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:12 pm
VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:53 pm
The argument for serrations being on one side vs the other has been around for a long time. I also wont lie, I do think there is some merit in putting them on the opposite side.

Ideally I would like for serrations to be ground on both sides.

...
I am not so sure about this (but can´t tell, cause I never had or even saw a knife with serrations ground on both sides):

Probably just one factor why (again, for me) Spydercos SE is superior to PE in most tasks exactly IS the chisel grind that makes for a much more acute angle?!
Isn’t your Endela cut on both sides and not flat on one?
One additional advantage of the chisel grind SE: Easier or let´s say quicker to sharpen on a Sharpmaker than PE (V edge)
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Mike Blue » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:45 pm

I'll suggest giving the SE blade some more time with cutting. Your brain will instinctively adapt to the angle of the blade needed and it will work. Give it practice. I support the SE blade being more effective in cutting things.

I have some Japanese razors that are double hollow ground with a short hollow on the show side and a large spine to edge hollow on the reverse, and definitely right handed. When I shave with those and have to go to the other side of my face, they work just fine. I can feel my brain tilting the blade just a little differently on the left side to accommodate the left turn in the blade.

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Wartstein » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:59 pm

Doc Dan wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:36 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:12 pm
VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:53 pm
The argument for serrations being on one side vs the other has been around for a long time. I also wont lie, I do think there is some merit in putting them on the opposite side.

Ideally I would like for serrations to be ground on both sides.

...
I am not so sure about this (but can´t tell, cause I never had or even saw a knife with serrations ground on both sides):

Probably just one factor why (again, for me) Spydercos SE is superior to PE in most tasks exactly IS the chisel grind that makes for a much more acute angle?!
Isn’t your Endela cut on both sides and not flat on one?
One additional advantage of the chisel grind SE: Easier or let´s say quicker to sharpen on a Sharpmaker than PE (V edge)

Doc, the Endela is chisel grind, the serrations (and also the short PE part towards the tip) just cut on one side, yes! I think the very acute angle this makes for is one of the reasons why it performs so well...

As far as I am aware of ALL Spyderco SE grinds are cut just on one side, right?! Even on combo edges just the PE part is a V edge, while the SE part is not.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby PeaceInOurTime » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:02 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:08 pm
If I would loose all of my Spydies and could get them once more, without any doubt the vast majority of them I´d take in SE now.
^^^ I'll second this ^^^ :) I really wish I had tried SE a long time ago as a primary EDC blade.

Wartstein wrote: One additional advantage of the chisel grind SE: Easier or let´s say quicker to sharpen on a Sharpmaker than PE (V edge)
^^^ Also agree here ^^^



In regards to SE (or chisel grinds/chisel edges in general) not cutting straight, I've really not seen this as an actual issue in real-life scenarios, in my experience. If I need to cut stiff media in a straight line, I just hold the knife at the appropriate angle to do so. My SE Spydercos are ground on the left side and my Leatherman Surge SE is ground on the right side... I really don't give it much thought when in use.

though, to be fair, I understand that personal preference and ability make this a deal breaker for some.


@ugaarguy, SE doesn't work for everyone, but you never know unless you give it a real chance. :) Don't be afraid to give it a workout -- and keep it sharp!
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Wartstein » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:04 pm

PeaceInOurTime wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:02 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:08 pm
If I would loose all of my Spydies and could get them once more, without any doubt the vast majority of them I´d take in SE now.
^^^ I'll second this ^^^ :) I really wish I had tried SE a long time ago as a primary EDC blade.
Wartstein wrote:

+ 1 :)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Cambertree » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:11 pm

As a lefty it was a pleasant surprise to find the SE Salts feature a correctly ground chisel edge. ;) :p

Sorry, had to say it. :D

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Knivesinedc » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:15 pm

I have found for most purposes, a combo edge blade works wonders. I think a lot of people look at combo edge knives as two different sections of blade to use for two different tasks. I have always found that the biggest upside of having a 50/50 split of edge types is that the teeth of a serrated edge "bite" into the material and really get the cut started, allowing the plain edge portion to gain access and complete the cut cleanly. This obviously doesn't work for everything you cut but as a general EDC/Utility blade, I thoroughly enjoy the benefits of a CE blade.

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Stuart Ackerman » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:31 pm

Serrating both sides would require that the edge is more obtuse than right now.
I had a request from a commercial diver years ago to do "mirror" serrations on one of my fixed blade designs, and I used a chainsaw file to do so...

Waste of time...the force required to cut one inch polyprop rope was lots!

He bought a Merlin, and was quite happy after that, but I warned him to wash the knife EACH time after he used it.
He carried it in one of my Kydex sheaths with Ti bolts, in the open position.

Alternate serrations would possibly be an idea to try, but the more obtuse grind would probably be the same as my tester.
There would be more metal in the cutting path as well.

Today, H1 and 200N would fit the bill for him, in fixed and bendy knives!

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby ugaarguy » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:21 am

Cambertree wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:11 pm
As a lefty it was a pleasant surprise to find the SE Salts feature a correctly ground chisel edge. ;) :p

Sorry, had to say it. :D
It's all good :D . Vanity to make it look good for us righties makes it cut right for y'all lefties. ;)
Last edited by ugaarguy on Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

ugaarguy
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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby ugaarguy » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:22 am

Double Tap.

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Re: Serration Disappointment

Postby Sonorum » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 am

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:39 pm
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:19 pm
Really?? This is surprising to read. You had to have known this is how the knife was ground?

Personally I find pull cuts best with SE blades.

Did you try touching it up, maybe a small burr or wire edge on the scallop's?
I knew it was how they were ground, I just wasn't thinking about it when I ordered the darn thing. I was caught up in the hype of the recent threads on how awesome fully serrated blades are. My first impression is that they're annoying. I'll make myself keep using it, and maybe it'll grow on me.
I think it's best to keep using it for a while, there certainly is a bit of an adjustment you have to make to your technique with the SE grind, especially when wanting to cut straight.

I would also argue that the serrations ARE on the best side of the blade (if your are right handed) and this is my reasoning: When you use a chisel with the bevel outwards (IE flat part against the material) the blade just wants to cut more and more down into the material. With the bevel down towards the material it is easier to cut into, and then out from the material, effectively "taking a bite" out of the material. It lets you control the depth of the cut easier. If you are holding the material with your left hand and using the knife with your right hand this lets you take "a bite" out of the material instead of just going deeper and getting stuck.

I have a chisel ground knife with the bevel on the opposite side when compared to a Spyderco and I find that to less useful in practice.
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