Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

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Albatross
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Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby Albatross » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:27 am

Does anyone have experience with this stuff?

60% Nickel and 40% Titanium, makes for a lighter blade than one made from steel. It's supposed to hold an edge for quite a while and be rust-proof.

If it's a possibility, I would love to see Spyderco try NiTiNOL out at some point. Putting this on the Shaman might be an answer to the weight issue for some people.
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sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

VooDooChild
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:13 am

Nitinol, other titanium alloys, stellite, talonite, dendritic cobalt, ceramics, pure irridium lol,... All rust proof with varying levels of edge holding and toughness/strength. Ceramic isnt strong. Tiatanium doesnt hold an edge. Etc

Spyderco seems to want to stick to steel. And now we have rust proof steels so thats great.

A selling point for nitinol was it was non magnetic but also strong enough to make a dive knife out of.

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sal
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby sal » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:53 am

Gail and I began testing salt water corrosion resistant materials in the early 80's. We were divers and sailors and felt there was a need/market for knife that could be used in Salt Water with little or no corrosion. This is a problem with a knife because the edge is the first to go because it's exposed on two sides.

We tested all kinds of steel, ceramic, Titan, Cobalt blades and even had custom makers make their "special" alloy for us to test. The main problems encountered were poor edge retention or very high cost to manufacture. The next test for edge retention was to serrate the edges. Serrated ceramic tended to crack through the middle of a serration when pushed too hard or dropped on hard surfaces. We tried Alumina ceramic and TTZ. All of the Titan alloys and pure Titan still would not hold an edge to our satisfaction.

I remember one custom alloy that I tried made by a knowledgeable maker began to rust before my eyes as I was going down n a dive after jumping from the boat. The problem was far more difficult to solve for the general market than we thought.

David Boye's Dendritic Cobalt was acceptable and we made an number of knives that we cast in a Cobalt material, but the cost for a larger knife became prohibitive.

About the turn of the Century, Chronidur 30 was invented as the first Nitrogen steel. We weren't able to get it because they said that we were an international company and we might ship a knife to an "unfriendly country" that might infringe on their patents. They also said that NASA was buying all they could make.

In the early 2000's, one of our long time Japanese traders brought us H1. We were slow to test it and move on it because our company was having very difficult financial problems at the time (we came very close to going bankrupt). Eventually we tested and liked the material and moved into it. But we had to buy a lot to do what we wanted. We spent millions producing and promoting H1 and now 15 years later, it is a staple in our steel stable.

We added LC200N recently (Chronidur 30 under another name) and we are now using both, and we're still testing. We are always open to trying new materials for this market, but many are just too expensive to make a general market product, combined with the fact that we have to make a bunch just to test it.

I'll look into NiTiNOL if Crucible will play, but I can make no promises as it is costly.

sal

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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby Sumdumguy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:01 am

Well, I'm intrigued. Would love to see how it performs compared to LC200N.

ugaarguy
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby ugaarguy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:19 pm

It would be interesting if Spyderco could get sample quantities of NiTiNOL to test against Vanax. Sal has said Vanax is too expensive to use currently. I wonder if this metal could possibly be any less expensive, but I have my doubts.

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sal
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby sal » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:24 pm

Some steels just cost more. At the current price of Vanax, which is much more than Maxamet, we don't think the market would support production. Also the cost of processing some steels is higher.

sal

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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby ugaarguy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:47 pm

Sal, have you seen the little "The Drift" framelock from Quiet Carry? It's a $300+ Ti framelock with a Vanax blade. Quiet Carry sold out of them and have commissioned a 2nd run. Given, I don't know how many pieces a run is for them, versus a run for Spyderco of doing a Vanax blade sprint of the Native 5 Salt or of the Sage 2.

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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby kodai78 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:51 pm

Nitinol has some very special properties. Including changing shape when reheated. Even at temps as low as 98°. That’s why it’s used in cardiac stents. Might be a problem in a knife blade? Search Wikipedia for more info. (Sorry I couldn’t figure how to paste a link)
:spyder: Smock, Baby Jess Horn CE, Spydiechef, Schempp Bowie,Ti Fluted Military, Titanium Military, Native S30 V and G10, PM 2 in S35VN, and S110V, Manix 2 LW BD1, Sage 5, Positron black CPM S30V, Chaparral w/Raffir Noble scales, SuperLeaf VG 10, Ladybug H1, Dragonfly 2 in ZDP 189 and Superblue/420J1 and H1, Delica in ZDP 189, Clipitool Standard, the Cook’s knife VG10, Santorum, paring and utility knives, all in MBS 26. :spyder:

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tonijedi
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby tonijedi » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:10 pm

kodai78 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:51 pm
Nitinol has some very special properties. Including changing shape when reheated. Even at temps as low as 98°. That’s why it’s used in cardiac stents. Might be a problem in a knife blade? Search Wikipedia for more info. (Sorry I couldn’t figure how to paste a link)
Yes, there is NiTiNol that has that amazing property, really nice for glass frames or other applications, but in think this NiTiNol used for blades is different.

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Stuart Ackerman
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby Stuart Ackerman » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:22 pm

Why Nitinol / SM100 is not a great idea...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

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sal
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby sal » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:37 pm

Hi Ugaarguy,

The Drift looks like a nice design. Seems to be well made. Price is about right for a consumer direct model. I asked Susan to try to get a piece of NiTiNOL for testing from Crucible. We've been working with them for 25 tears so imagine it's possible. We'll also get their opinion of function as a blade. If it's priced like Vanax, then there would not be much advantage over Vanax. We could make a Sage 2 with Vanax, but it would be pricey. We'd have to make 1200 pieces and going through the distribution system, they'd be far more expensive than the Drift.

sal

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sal
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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby sal » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:46 pm

We didn't get involved with SM100 When Mick was working with it because of the high cost. Better for custom makers. We have volume requirements that make such projects impractical.

sal

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Re: Crucible 60 NiTiNOL

Postby BLJace » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:37 pm

sal wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:53 am
Gail and I began testing salt water corrosion resistant materials in the early 80's. We were divers and sailors and felt there was a need/market for knife that could be used in Salt Water with little or no corrosion. This is a problem with a knife because the edge is the first to go because it's exposed on two sides.

We tested all kinds of steel, ceramic, Titan, Cobalt blades and even had custom makers make their "special" alloy for us to test. The main problems encountered were poor edge retention or very high cost to manufacture. The next test for edge retention was to serrate the edges. Serrated ceramic tended to crack through the middle of a serration when pushed too hard or dropped on hard surfaces. We tried Alumina ceramic and TTZ. All of the Titan alloys and pure Titan still would not hold an edge to our satisfaction.

I remember one custom alloy that I tried made by a knowledgeable maker began to rust before my eyes as I was going down n a dive after jumping from the boat. The problem was far more difficult to solve for the general market than we thought.

David Boye's Dendritic Cobalt was acceptable and we made an number of knives that we cast in a Cobalt material, but the cost for a larger knife became prohibitive.

About the turn of the Century, Chronidur 30 was invented as the first Nitrogen steel. We weren't able to get it because they said that we were an international company and we might ship a knife to an "unfriendly country" that might infringe on their patents. They also said that NASA was buying all they could make.

In the early 2000's, one of our long time Japanese traders brought us H1. We were slow to test it and move on it because our company was having very difficult financial problems at the time (we came very close to going bankrupt). Eventually we tested and liked the material and moved into it. But we had to buy a lot to do what we wanted. We spent millions producing and promoting H1 and now 15 years later, it is a staple in our steel stable.

We added LC200N recently (Chronidur 30 under another name) and we are now using both, and we're still testing. We are always open to trying new materials for this market, but many are just too expensive to make a general market product, combined with the fact that we have to make a bunch just to test it.

I'll look into NiTiNOL if Crucible will play, but I can make no promises as it is costly.

sal
See, this is one of the reasons I respect Spyderco so much. Look at this response. We got an awesome history, reasons and explanations. Direct from Sal F'ing Glesser (professional title).

Love what you guys do, thanks Sal!
:spyder: I used to collect a lot of knives... I still do, but i used to too. :spyder:


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