Micro Serrations

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Wartstein
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Wartstein » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:05 am

Pancake wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:40 am
Like, there is a difference between your edge finish. You can notice if you have like 220 grit finish or 2000 grit finish. If you try to slice your finger along the edge, 220 grit edge is going to bite more then 2000. But, there is this misconception that low grit finish is not sharp, that is pure BS, you can have shaving sharp edge of someting like DMT X coarse and it will have so much raw agression during a slicing cut.

But again, regular serrations, full Spyderedge is going to blow even the coarsest of finish out of water.

1.) Related thread: viewtopic.php?t=85096
2.) Right. I regret not coming earlier to realize how amazing spyderedges work (and how easy they actually are to sharpen .)
Last edited by Wartstein on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Evil D » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:01 am

Low grit sharpening..

https://youtu.be/mSt2mCWGFII
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Larrin » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:46 am

Image
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Surfingringo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 am

I consider myself (perhaps mistakenly) a relatively intelligent human being. I’m even partially educated. That said, I think about 90% of the graphs I see posted on there are complete Greek to me. It probably doesn’t help that I don’t know what TCC (mm) means but even if I did I‘m not sure I would understand what that graph is representing. I don’t know, I’m good with some things, maybe graphs and charts just aren’t my thing. They usually make me feel stupid. :p

- Speaking broadly I guess that since the graph has something to do with edge retention and the line is going down then the point is that ER goes down as finish grit goes up? Maybe it is just the TCC (mm) that is leaving me lost. Is that a designation of edge performance in Catra? Thanks
Last edited by Surfingringo on Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Surfingringo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:14 am

Regarding edge finish vs edge performance, much of your results will depend on what you are cutting. A polished edge will perform better on push cuts like shaving hair or whittling. A coarse edge will vastly outperform a polished edge on most slicing cuts. If you are unconvinced, get yourself some heavy 1” rope and make some slicing cuts on a cutting board. Do that with two different edge finishes. One with a high grit polished edge that is hair whittling sharp. Another with a coarse finish in the 200-600 grit range. Even though the polished edge might whittle hair and the low grit edge might only scrape shave hair, you will find that the coarse edge will slice through the rope with only a fraction of the force that the polished edge requires. That reduced force translates into less stress on the edge and better edge retention over multiple cuts.

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Larrin » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:19 am

Surfingringo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 am
I consider myself (perhaps mistakenly) a relatively intelligent human being. I’m even partially educated. That said, I think about 90% of the graphs I see posted on there are complete Greek to me. It probably doesn’t help that I don’t know what TCC (mm) means but even if I did I‘m not sure I would understand what that graph is representing. I don’t know, I’m good with some things, maybe graphs and charts just aren’t my thing. They usually make me feel stupid. :p

- Speaking broadly I guess that since the graph has something to do with edge retention and the line is going down then the point is that ER goes down as finish grit goes up? Maybe it is just the TCC (mm) that is leaving me lost. Is that a designation of edge performance in Catra? Thanks
TCC is "total cardstock cut" in CATRA testing.
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:19 am

"Total Cards Cut"

The cutting action on catra is a back and forth saw like motion with a fixed load weight and fixed amount of cuts and measures how many "cards" are cut at the end.

The knife that cuts the most cards at the end with the same amount of cuts is said to do more "work" and have more retention with a back and forth motion and fixed weight.

So from the graph you can see the toothier edge finish did better.

That may translate to real world depending on how well the toothy edge is executed and what type of cutting task is being done.

For instance hunters like the toothier edge, it grabs and cuts through the hide better and most cuts are done with a drawing motion.

That doesn't translate to shaving your face better, the cutting motion is also different for that, you "push" cut and cleave off the hairs, polish is the winner for that.
Surfingringo wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:07 am
I consider myself (perhaps mistakenly) a relatively intelligent human being. I’m even partially educated. That said, I think about 90% of the graphs I see posted on there are complete Greek to me. It probably doesn’t help that I don’t know what TCC (mm) means but even if I did I‘m not sure I would understand what that graph is representing. I don’t know, I’m good with some things and not so much with others I guess.

- Speaking broadly I guess that since the graph has something to do with edge retention and the line is going down then the point is that ER goes down as finish grit goes up? Maybe it is just the TCC (mm) that is leaving me lost. Is that a designation of edge performance in Catra? Thanks
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:26 am

There is talk from Spyderco about a galvanic bonded "COATED" CBN benchstone that should be interesting for those that want to play with "microserrated" edges

Much like the DMT stone, the abrasive grains are more exposed allowing them to cut deeper into the bevel and make a more aggressive finish.

They'll have to be used with a lighter touch to keep the grains from tearing out of the bond and it's just a single layer of abrasive but it should be interesting for us edge junkies to play with more CBN in that format.
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Surfingringo » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:00 am

Thanks much for the clear and helpful response DBH!

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:40 am

"Back in the day", When I was promoting the Sharpmaker, ('80's) I pushed for a sharpening by leading with the cutting edge to create a "scratch pattern" that created "micro serrations" that they would cut better. Most of the "Experts" at the time said I was all wrong and there was no such thing as a micro serration. They said they looked at edges under a microscope and there were obviously no such thing as micro serrations.

I also said that a coarse edge would cut more aggressively and a polished edge would stay sharper longer, so we created a serrated edge, that when sharpened to a polished edge was the best of both worlds. Aggressive cutting and longer edge retention. Again, the "Experts" said i was wrong and serrations were stupid. Funny how times have changed. :rolleyes:

sal

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Snacktime » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:47 am

So how does this relate to the different steels available now? Micro serrations have to increase the chance of chipping as they are essentially fracture points? As we push the material hardness things change...

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Evil D » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:03 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:40 am
"Back in the day", When I was promoting the Sharpmaker, ('80's) I pushed for a sharpening by leading with the cutting edge to create a "scratch pattern" that created "micro serrations" that they would cut better. Most of the "Experts" at the time said I was all wrong and there was no such thing as a micro serration. They said they looked at edges under a microscope and there were obviously no such thing as micro serrations.

I also said that a coarse edge would cut more aggressively and a polished edge would stay sharper longer, so we created a serrated edge, that when sharpened to a polished edge was the best of both worlds. Aggressive cutting and longer edge retention. Again, the "Experts" said i was wrong and serrations were stupid. Funny how times have changed. :rolleyes:

sal


Do you have the old SE literature that used to be on the website? The polished serration thing is no joke, they slice cleanly like PE when they need to but unlike a polished PE nothing slips off the edge. I wish I had a more open mind about serrations 10 years ago and/or got a Sharpmaker sooner.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:54 pm

Still an edge junkie after all these years Sal, that's why we love you and what makes Spyderco very special. :D

sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:40 am
"Back in the day", When I was promoting the Sharpmaker, ('80's) I pushed for a sharpening by leading with the cutting edge to create a "scratch pattern" that created "micro serrations" that they would cut better. Most of the "Experts" at the time said I was all wrong and there was no such thing as a micro serration. They said they looked at edges under a microscope and there were obviously no such thing as micro serrations.

I also said that a coarse edge would cut more aggressively and a polished edge would stay sharper longer, so we created a serrated edge, that when sharpened to a polished edge was the best of both worlds. Aggressive cutting and longer edge retention. Again, the "Experts" said i was wrong and serrations were stupid. Funny how times have changed. :rolleyes:

sal
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sal
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:56 pm

Hi David,

If wishes were horses....... ;)

sal

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sal
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:03 pm

Hi Shawn,

Yes, I admit it. Still an edge junky after all these years.

I remember when I was pitching our K04SBL in the early '80's (serrated 6" utility with the blue handle) I had a fun line: "Now remember, the edge is the knife. The blade is there so the edge doesn't break off. The handle is there to control the edge. When you select a knife by looking at the handle, you are looking at the wrong end of the knife. Some people get married that way, but that's another story". ;)

sal

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby bbturbodad » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:43 pm

Evil D wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:03 pm
sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:40 am
"Back in the day", When I was promoting the Sharpmaker, ('80's) I pushed for a sharpening by leading with the cutting edge to create a "scratch pattern" that created "micro serrations" that they would cut better. Most of the "Experts" at the time said I was all wrong and there was no such thing as a micro serration. They said they looked at edges under a microscope and there were obviously no such thing as micro serrations.

I also said that a coarse edge would cut more aggressively and a polished edge would stay sharper longer, so we created a serrated edge, that when sharpened to a polished edge was the best of both worlds. Aggressive cutting and longer edge retention. Again, the "Experts" said i was wrong and serrations were stupid. Funny how times have changed. :rolleyes:

sal


Do you have the old SE literature that used to be on the website? The polished serration thing is no joke, they slice cleanly like PE when they need to but unlike a polished PE nothing slips off the edge. I wish I had a more open mind about serrations 10 years ago and/or got a Sharpmaker sooner.
Not sure if this what you're asking about but I found it on the wayback machine archive...
Image
-Turbo

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Evil D
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby Evil D » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:36 pm

bbturbodad wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:43 pm
Evil D wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:03 pm
sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:40 am
"Back in the day", When I was promoting the Sharpmaker, ('80's) I pushed for a sharpening by leading with the cutting edge to create a "scratch pattern" that created "micro serrations" that they would cut better. Most of the "Experts" at the time said I was all wrong and there was no such thing as a micro serration. They said they looked at edges under a microscope and there were obviously no such thing as micro serrations.

I also said that a coarse edge would cut more aggressively and a polished edge would stay sharper longer, so we created a serrated edge, that when sharpened to a polished edge was the best of both worlds. Aggressive cutting and longer edge retention. Again, the "Experts" said i was wrong and serrations were stupid. Funny how times have changed. :rolleyes:

sal


Do you have the old SE literature that used to be on the website? The polished serration thing is no joke, they slice cleanly like PE when they need to but unlike a polished PE nothing slips off the edge. I wish I had a more open mind about serrations 10 years ago and/or got a Sharpmaker sooner.
Not sure if this what you're asking about but I found it on the wayback machine archive...
Image

Yes! That's exactly it, thanks for finding that :D
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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bbturbodad
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby bbturbodad » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:14 pm

No problem. As I tell my kids (and wife), think before posting on the Internet...it NEVER disappears. ;)
-Turbo

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sal
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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:42 pm

Hi Bbturbodad,

Thanx from me as well. I remember creating that Edge-U-Cation.

sal

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Re: Micro Serrations

Postby dan31 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:27 pm

One of the reason I went with SE in the lil native.


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