Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

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Evil D
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:28 pm

Robishere wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:23 pm
Evil D wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:30 am
For the record I'm the guy that's fighting for this change, but I completely agree with Sal, the blade still needs to be able to drop closed without cutting your finger. There are already decades of models being produced with too many people who have developed muscle memory closing their knives this way. Changing that is a sure fire way to cause accidents. The Nilakka I mentioned is a liner lock but it lacks any kind of kick or choil and it WILL close and cut your finger even being a liner lock. If you compare that to a Military, the choil falls into your finger when closing it. There is a legitimate concern with all this.
Evil D, if there were a valid case that people used to opening a certain style of knife will only hurt themselves with a change or new style....would you explain how people with service revolvers ever adapted to automatics?

If people were breaking and amputating thumbs with an auto slide and could not adapt.....time to retire. Things change.

If people cannot open and close a new style of knife with a full length cutting edge, do not buy one. There are hundreds of variations of finger choil knives from spyderco which are mostly the same. PLUS we are talking about a back lock that do not “drop” closed till it is much farther than half way anyways. People adapted to compression locks and frame locks and liner locks and the axis lock and balisongs and numerous other styles.

I would suggest one of two options for those that cannot deal with a full length cutting edge:

1) Don't buy one, use what you are familiar with.
2) try the practice spyderco plastic knife first.

Honestly if you wrap your fingers around any knife with an axis lock and release the lock it will fall and cut you. They ALL have full length cutting edges...and yet how big is Benchmade?


Are you assuming no accidents have happened from switching from revolvers to semi auto? You know that's a ridiculous assumption right?
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby pantagana23 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:32 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:49 am
Hi Pantagana,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and pictures. Pictures always help.

But, with all due respect, Blade to handle ratio is not a measurement of function. It is a measurement of visual preference and not one to which I pay any attention. A scalpel would not perform any better if the blade were longer or the handle was shorter. Handles are for holding and blades are for cutting. I'm pretty much all about function. I will leave the visual thing to our other designers and collaborators.

sal
Thank you for your reply Mr. Glesser.

Sorry if I made the wrong impression, my thoughts were only that in this 3" range of blades, you should use all the edge you can on the blade. Even though the choil is used for fine cuts, on a blade this small, you should be able to do so even without it, if the handle is shaped to bring your hand close enough to the edge.

I suppose I must be wrong, since the sale numbers do not go in favor of my statement, and the "big hit" of edge-to-handle is yet to be produced.

Maybe not the best example in a backlock thread, but Tenacious and Persistence are one of your best products design and exploiting wise.

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sal
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:50 pm

Hi Pantagana,

True on the Tenacious, etc. They were designed to have the edge come to the handle and we've designed many models that do that. They are not back-locks. The subject of the thread is: "Back-locks with edges going all the way to the handle".

It seems that most of the support for edges close to the handle presented in this thread are not back-locks.

Certainly people are capable of changing their habits, but sometimes people do not want to change their habits. How many would switch their steering wheels for a joy stick?

sal

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Wartstein » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:07 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:49 am
.....
But, with all due respect, Blade to handle ratio is not a measurement of function. It is a measurement of visual preference and not one to which I pay any attention. A scalpel would not perform any better if the blade were longer or the handle was shorter. Handles are for holding and blades are for cutting. I'm pretty much all about function. I will leave the visual thing to our other designers and collaborators.
...
Dear Sal,

Let me start by explicitly pointing out:

- I exclusivly own Spydero folders now, and mostly because of their amazing ergos
- All of my Spydies are Sal Glesser designs and DO have choil or Ricasso (and NOT an edge all the way to the handle) and I Iove them all
- Also my top 5 folders (some of which I don´t own at the moment) of all times happen to be Sal Glesser designs,and that is not because I would be kind of a fanboy: Three of those were my absolute favorites before I even knew who Sal Glesser is, (and almost nothing about Spyderco), it was just about their perfect design.

So I think it is clear that I REALLY appreciate and even admire your approach towards design and to use your designs

But here I allow myself to slightly and respectfully disagree:

Just imho blade to handle ratio most times is no measure of function, but in some cases it can be:
For me in certain scenarios carryability is an aspect of function too.
In the vast majority of scenarios the following does not matter, but sometimes one might want a long cutting edge, but still a really small footprint concerning carry in the pocket. That is when "absolut perfect ergos" are trumped by "long actual edge"...

And I think that is also part of the reason why people sometimes freaked out about the Caribbean saying: "Man, you get a Millie cutting edge in a PM2 sized folder"!

Now all I (and obviously David and others) would like to see is a backlock-choice that other locktypes already offer: A knife basically like the Centofante (which STILL protects the finger), backlock, but edge almost all the way back. Just as a choice, as said, I personally would still carry my 50:50 choil Stretch or Chap, and Ricasso Endura or Endela the vast majority of time.

I am really glad you took the effort and obviously designed such a choice with the Rock Jumper! :)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby VooDooChild » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:10 pm

I prefer backlocks, especially Goldens backlocks.
I really dont care if the edge goes to the handle or not. Im fine with a kick.

What I want is more designs that do not have the 50/50 choil. I almost never use the choked up forward grip if I dont have to. And the thought of a native or paramilitary 2 or a different model kind of similar, where the handle had a larger single grip position sounds perfect for me.

I know there is the delica and endura, but I dont like there ergos nearly as much.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby JRinFL » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:22 pm

I think some models could be released with a choil-less blade, with the kick modified to fill in the half-choil left in the handle. The plunge could be moved back towards the handle some as well. Certainly less expensive than an all new knife, but I'm guessing Eric and Sal enjoy making new a design more than modifying existing, outside of CQI, of course.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder: Friends call me Jim. As do my enemies.

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sal
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:28 pm

Hi Warstein,

I appreciate your interest and loyalty, and I appreciate the kind words. I am not disputing your argument and I'm really not in disagreement with you. I realize that there are many that agree with you and have no problem with that. I also realize that all designs of knives, sailboats and racers are always a compromise.

For my personal designs, there are some things, especially in back-locks, that I am not willing to give up. I battled this for years. My first solution was finger-choils and my next solution was to come up with the Rock Jumper. I think Frank Centofante designed a great back-lock with full edge, not much kick and no finger choil. I also imagine that some of our designers will see your point of view and design a back-lock with those features. I'll keep working on my Rock-Jumper solution.

sal

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby sal » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:32 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:10 pm

What I want is more designs that do not have the 50/50 choil. I almost never use the choked up forward grip if I dont have to. And the thought of a native or paramilitary 2 or a different model kind of similar, where the handle had a larger single grip position sounds perfect for me.
Hi VooDooChild,

I think you will like my Rock Jumper. :)

sak

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby JRinFL » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:32 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:28 pm
Hi Warstein,

I appreciate your interest and loyalty, and I appreciate the kind words. I am not disputing your argument and I'm really not in disagreement with you. I realize that there are many that agree with you and have no problem with that. I also realize that all designs of knives, sailboats and racers are always a compromise.

For my personal designs, there are some things, especially in back-locks, that I am not willing to give up. I battled this for years. My first solution was finger-choils and my next solution was to come up with the Rock Jumper. I think Frank Centofante designed a great back-lock with full edge, not much kick and no finger choil. I also imagine that some of our designers will see your point of view and design a back-lock with those features. I'll keep working on my Rock-Jumper solution.

sal
Keep strong Sal! Your design are great as they are.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder: Friends call me Jim. As do my enemies.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Wartstein » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:18 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:28 pm
Hi Warstein,

I appreciate your interest and loyalty, and I appreciate the kind words. I am not disputing your argument and I'm really not in disagreement with you. I realize that there are many that agree with you and have no problem with that. I also realize that all designs of knives, sailboats and racers are always a compromise.

For my personal designs, there are some things, especially in back-locks, that I am not willing to give up. I battled this for years. My first solution was finger-choils and my next solution was to come up with the Rock Jumper. I think Frank Centofante designed a great back-lock with full edge, not much kick and no finger choil. I also imagine that some of our designers will see your point of view and design a back-lock with those features. I'll keep working on my Rock-Jumper solution.

sal
Thanks for your explanation and kind reply, Sal! :) Your way to communicate with us customers and Spyderco aficionados is definitely a further piece in the mosaic that makes me like this brand so much.

As much as, and I want to emphasize this once more, I like my finger-choil-backlocks (several Stretches and a Chap at the time being)

So I´ll keep looking forward to the Rock Jumper and hope you´ll be able to maybe share a pic here soon...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Wartstein » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:22 pm

JRinFL wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:32 pm
sal wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:28 pm
Keep strong Sal! Your design are great as they are.

They are, I am the first to be with you on that! (just see my post to which Sal actually did reply here... ;) )
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby JRinFL » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:02 am

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:22 pm
They are, I am the first to be with you on that! (just see my post to which Sal actually did reply here... ;) )
I know, and no offense meant to you or others. However, I sometimes get frustrated with all the comments and ideas that Sal "should make such and such" or change some feature he designed in to a knife. I mean would people be so eager to tell the late Bob Loveless that he should be making tantos or tell Tony Bose his knives need locks? I doubt it, but who knows with people. Anyway, Sal's designs are the result of great thought, testing, and experience. It is his life's work, but people are so eager to have him change it. It's proof of his character that he stays so level headed in his responses to all of these comments.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder: Friends call me Jim. As do my enemies.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Wartstein » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:23 am

JRinFL wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:02 am
Wartstein wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:22 pm
They are, I am the first to be with you on that! (just see my post to which Sal actually did reply here... ;) )
I know, and no offense meant to you or others. However, I sometimes get frustrated with all the comments and ideas that Sal "should make such and such" or change some feature he designed in to a knife. I mean would people be so eager to tell the late Bob Loveless that he should be making tantos or tell Tony Bose his knives need locks? I doubt it, but who knows with people. Anyway, Sal's designs are the result of great thought, testing, and experience. It is his life's work, but people are so eager to have him change it. It's proof of his character that he stays so level headed in his responses to all of these comments.

No offense taken! :)

But I think we're talking past each other a bit. This is not about that Sal should actually CHANGE one of his existing, perfect designs, but more the couriousness with what he as a great knife designer could come up with concerning NEW designs..

Actually I think that kind of discussion is what this forum partly is about.. And discussing a or wishing for a new Sal Glesser knife offering a certain feature is not much different to asking for an existing model in another steel (well, ok, it kind of is different, but you get what I mean?)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:54 am

JRinFL wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:02 am
Wartstein wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:22 pm
They are, I am the first to be with you on that! (just see my post to which Sal actually did reply here... ;) )
I know, and no offense meant to you or others. However, I sometimes get frustrated with all the comments and ideas that Sal "should make such and such" or change some feature he designed in to a knife. I mean would people be so eager to tell the late Bob Loveless that he should be making tantos or tell Tony Bose his knives need locks? I doubt it, but who knows with people. Anyway, Sal's designs are the result of great thought, testing, and experience. It is his life's work, but people are so eager to have him change it. It's proof of his character that he stays so level headed in his responses to all of these comments.


I have a lot of ideas. Some are better than others, but ultimately this is a discussion forum and I think that's kind of the point, share thoughts and ideas. I understand how it seems foolish to question a guy's ideas when he has so much experience making knives, but he did the same thing when he started Spyderco. Often times the best ideas go against established standards.
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby JRinFL » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:59 am

I think my words might be misunderstood. I'll just quote Sal here "For my personal designs, there are some things, especially in back-locks, that I am not willing to give up. I battled this for years. "
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder: Friends call me Jim. As do my enemies.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:05 am

JRinFL wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:59 am
I think my words might be misunderstood. I'll just quote Sal here "For my personal designs, there are some things, especially in back-locks, that I am not willing to give up. I battled this for years. "


No I didn't take offense or anything and I completely understand your point, it can go both ways. A few posts ago I even said I feel stupid for questioning some designs, but discussion is still usually a healthy thing. If nothing else we come to a conclusion where we understand why a design is the way it is.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Karl_H » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:35 am

I understand Sal's reasons for having the 50-50 choils and his reluctance to remove them, but I do think there are a lot of people who really would prefer not to have the 50-50 choil.

I am looking forward to checking out the Rock Jumper. Personally, I expect the thumb ramp to be a deal breaker. I would love to see a similar design in the Native series (no 50-50 choil & no thumb ramp), which I would almost certainly purchase. Personally, I think the Native Chief would probably be the best initial candidate for removal of the 50-50 choil.

Currently, the Ikuchi is my overall favorite Spyderco, in large part because:
- No 50-50 choil or ricasso
- Handle is long enough for a 4 finger grip, but doesn't stick out
- Sharpened blade length is long enough for the majority of my cutting tasks

Interestingly, the Native 5 and the Ikuchi have exactly the same handle length (if you include the 50-50 choil in handle length), but the effective cutting edge of the Ikuchi is significantly longer than that of the Native. The cutting edge on the Native is long enough for box cutting, rope cutting, & wood carving. However, the Native 5 sharpened blade length feels a bit too short for a lot of food prep tasks.

That being said, I do prefer the backlock and the taller leaf shaped blade on the Native 5 for a lot of cutting tasks.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby JuPaul » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:58 am

The finger choil isn't a must-have for me, but most of my favorite models have them, or have a ricasso that can be used as one. They just feel comfortable and right to me. In fact I'm so used to them now that I have to be extra careful when I pick up a knife without a finger choil or a ricasso, because I'll instinctively try to choke up on the blade, and I've come close to cutting myself more than once! I'm very tempted by knives like the Centofante or the Siren, but I'll admit it makes me nervous not to have a bigger ricasso on a backlock knife, especially.
- Julia

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby JRinFL » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:45 am

JuPaul wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:58 am
The finger choil isn't a must-have for me, but most of my favorite models have them, or have a ricasso that can be used as one. They just feel comfortable and right to me. In fact I'm so used to them now that I have to be extra careful when I pick up a knife without a finger choil or a ricasso, because I'll instinctively try to choke up on the blade, and I've come close to cutting myself more than once! I'm very tempted by knives like the Centofante or the Siren, but I'll admit it makes me nervous not to have a bigger ricasso on a backlock knife, especially.
Preach! I have done the same. It's like driving a car without anti-lock brakes, sure you can adjust, but it is easy to forget at the wrong moment. :eek:
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder: Friends call me Jim. As do my enemies.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby JuPaul » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:54 am

JRinFL wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:45 am
JuPaul wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:58 am
The finger choil isn't a must-have for me, but most of my favorite models have them, or have a ricasso that can be used as one. They just feel comfortable and right to me. In fact I'm so used to them now that I have to be extra careful when I pick up a knife without a finger choil or a ricasso, because I'll instinctively try to choke up on the blade, and I've come close to cutting myself more than once! I'm very tempted by knives like the Centofante or the Siren, but I'll admit it makes me nervous not to have a bigger ricasso on a backlock knife, especially.
Preach! I have done the same. It's like driving a car without anti-lock brakes, sure you can adjust, but it is easy to forget at the wrong moment. :eek:
Exactly! Like I still mash my left foot to the floor sometimes when I start my car...looking for a clutch that isn't there anymore. Except my floorboard won't cut me!
- Julia

"Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq.


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