Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

[Wartstein]

Hi all,

Interesting discussion.

While some of you are not interested or do not use "one-hand-close", it was an important part of the design when we made our first model in 1981. That's because many knife users liked the one-hand-close aspect of the design.

Also, we need to pay attention to sales of the various models. Knives with "kicks" or "finger choils" far outsell models that don't have those features.

Hi David,

On the Centofante, Frank wanted the full edge and the sharpening choil. We used those features for him.

sal

Hi Sal,

Imho "one hand close" does not mean a Ricasso or kick is mandatory, that is just the case for one single ("let the blade drop on your finger") one hand close method.

There are several other quite easy back lock "one hand close" methods, where an edge all the way to the handle is no problem at all... (of course you know that, but others might not..)

[Jazz]

I like the Delica design too much. I one hand drop close. I try it with the Centofante, and it’s not good. Similarly, on the Mantra, I keep choking up onto the blade. So annoying.

[sal]

Hi Warstein,

I appreciate your opinion and I appreciate your passion, but I do not agree with your conclusion for the majority of Spyderco customers. I think it would be a big gamble to try to change 45 years of successful designs for something that has not proven to be more successful like the Centofante, Lil' Temperance or other designs where the edge is close to the handle.

It's like the argument for handle to Blade ratio. This is purely an "eye" thing and not a "function" thing. Pleasing the eye is for 3D art more than for a high performance cutting tool. I realize that many of our customers are collectors, and for them, 3D art is very important. That's why we have so many collaboration designs which are often created by custom makers which make pretty knives to please their collectors of custom knives.

I might also add that because of the custom collaborations, our market for that type of design has grown considerably. This shows that we are not above pleasing all types of customers.

I believe the Tenacious family is an exception due to the lower price.

We will closely watch the success of the Rock Jumper and go from there. Then I will be searching for opinions.

sal

[VooDooChild]

My only thing is I would be pretty happy for more non-choil designs.
On anything smaller than a native I do think they are necessary and I apprecieate them. But on everything thats bigger, I could mostly do without them, although there are a few exceptions.

[sal]

H VooDooChild,

If you have a lock-back, you have a choil or a kick......or a Rock Jumper......or A Centofante.

sal

[araneae]

I've never carried a knife like the Delica or Native and thought that it would be better if it had 8 more millimeters of edge. If I found myself in that scenario, I guess I'd just carry a bigger knife. It's funny that a knife we haven't seen yet is sparking multiple threads.

I prefer to one-hand drop close my knives, having to use both hands is a deal breaker for me.

I do see David's point that the ricasso can be designed to flow into the handle, it's aesthetically pleasing. But thinking about the Delica, you would eliminate the guard in the handle, leaving you with essentially a shallow 80/20 choil. That completely changes the model IMO. I can't see redesigning existing models to incorporate this type of change and generally find suggestions like that odd, just design a new model. Making a dramatic change to a well established, best seller isn't a smart move. Choils are one of those topics where most of us feel pretty strongly one way or the other, and no one is wrong. All good, just different.

[VooDooChild]

H VooDooChild,

If you have a lock-back, you have a choil or a kick......or a Rock Jumper......or A Centofante.

sal

Sorry, by non-choil, I meant 50/50 forward finger choils. I dont use that forward grip often unless I have to.

[Doc Dan]

The thing I like about the unsharpened exposed tang with the kick as on an Endura or Delica is that the way Sal designed it, if the lock fails, that part hits the finger instead of chopping it off.

[Robishere]

Sal I have seen the endura offered in higher end metals, with plastic handles. I have purchased the Gayle Bradley2 with a stunning handle and m4. The southard and chef are in great steel with great handles. All of these knives are pushing 4 inches.

Other than a plastic delica and tenacious there are really no options at all for those who like 2.5 to 3 inch blades in high end steel with high end frames/scales without a finger choil.
I was horrified the brouwer has a finger choil. Great steel and handle but again with the finger choil to sacrifice cutting edge length.
Just one single knife with titanium, 2.5 - 3” blade, and super steel like m390 or m4 and no spyder hump?

My holy grail.... native, titanium handle, m390, no finger choil!

[Wartstein]

Hi Warstein,

I appreciate your opinion and I appreciate your passion, but I do not agree with your conclusion for the majority of Spyderco customers. I think it would be a big gamble to try to change 45 years of successful designs for something that has not proven to be more successful like the Centofante, Lil' Temperance or other designs where the edge is close to the handle.

........

We will closely watch the success of the Rock Jumper and go from there. Then I will be searching for opinions.

sal

Dear Sal,

thanks for your detailled reply, appreciate it!

But I guess I could not make my point, it was really solely about the several ways a backlock can be closed one handed, not about how it generally should be designed!

There indeed ARE more one handed closing methods than just "dropping the blade on your finger".
But in this thread it sounded as if the latter would be the only one, and so a backlock knife with edge all the way to the handle could be closed only TWO handed (cause one won´t drop the EDGE on the finger)
Some new to this forum or to backlocks might believe that misconception, which would be sad (Vivi, where are you when we need you... :o )
For those I´ll link three vids of three additional methods (and there are more) below! (Shown one time slow, two times normal speed)

I am all for choices, so backlocks WITH choils, backlocks WITH Ricassos but also backlocks with an edge all the way to the handle

https://streamable.com/myzlt

https://streamable.com/bhhzs

https://streamable.com/j7fjd

[Notsurewhy]

Other than a plastic delica and tenacious there are really no options at all for those who like 2.5 to 3 inch blades in high end steel with high end frames/scales without a finger choil.

I don't know what your threshold for high end steel is, but if xhp is in the club, there is the techno 1 and 2.

[Evil D]

The thing I like about the unsharpened exposed tang with the kick as on an Endura or Delica is that the way Sal designed it, if the lock fails, that part hits the finger instead of chopping it off.

For the record I'm not suggesting this changes...I think it can exist as Sal said it would on the Rock Jumper. Much of the resistance on this sounds like fear of change to me but it's a win win change there is no down side to this.

[Evil D]

I've never carried a knife like the Delica or Native and thought that it would be better if it had 8 more millimeters of edge. If I found myself in that scenario, I guess I'd just carry a bigger knife.

The problem isn't the size of the knife for me, I have the same issue with the Endura and it would be the same if they made a version with a 10 inch blade. The problem is how far your grip is from the edge, and for me the kick area is a snag point. These changes move the edge to closer to the handle (yes, giving you more edge but that's really just a positive side effect) and eliminating any area between the grip and the edge for materials to snag on. Besides the benefit of dropping into your finger when closing and obviously as a kick, the ricasso is wasted real estate to me or at the least I think it could be hidden inside the handle more to get this effect.

[Doc Dan]

The thing I like about the unsharpened exposed tang with the kick as on an Endura or Delica is that the way Sal designed it, if the lock fails, that part hits the finger instead of chopping it off.

For the record I'm not suggesting this changes...I think it can exist as Sal said it would on the Rock Jumper. Much of the resistance on this sounds like fear of change to me but it's a win win change there is no down side to this.

Did I understand Sal to say that the rock jumper was designed in such a way that the flat tang would still hit the finger on the Rock Jumper? Maybe I imagined it.

[Pancake]

Maybe Rock Jumper will start a series of similar models.
I am probably not going to buy it, not sure, wharncliffe blade is not my thing.

[wrdwrght]

I’m all ears if a safe-drop/no-snag Spydie is achievable.

I imagine, however, that Sal and now Eric have already considered this challenge and addressed it, catalog after catalog.

I’m evidently in the demographic Spyderco is trying to reach.

A safe drop on my index-finger has come to be far more important to me than wanting to eliminate inconvenient snag-points along the blade’s edge.

[sal]

There are many ways to open a knife with one hand, though in my opinion, the hole opener is the best for a variety of reasons.

There are many ways to close a knife with one hand, but in my opinion, for a mid lock-back, the best is to drop the kick on your finger. It is also the one that I use the most. I really don't want to change my habit or muscle memory to please the desires of a few. I do believe the Rock Jumper solves this problem and if it is desired, we will design and produce more models like it.

I've been using knives regularly for 70 years as a knife afi. I have been designing knives for more than 40 years. I'm also creative and innovative. I believe I probably know most of the ways a knife can be opened or closed with one hand?

sal

[navin johnson]

I find back locks with ricassos much less snaggy on material for my use. Choils snag lots for me unless my finger in in the choil.

The other methods shown for closing seem more dangerous....and complicated.

I would like to see more back locks with ricassos....possibly a leaf blade?

[dan31]

I would agree that Spyderco take on edge/handle. The Delica is perfect for one hand open and close. I am experimenting with the native 5 and feel it is optimized for a choil. I have a stretch in hap40 that I will try out later.

These designs are so evolved. If you tweak them one way you piss off people who love them the way they are.

[Robishere]

I used to have 5 para 2, now I have one. So what if a zt titanium is $450 Canadian in stores?

The leverage I get putting my thumb farther up and longer cutting edge vastly beats the finger choil. Believe it ot not the zt blade is not as tall as the para2.

The frame lock plus dual lock studs plus lock bar =a quadruple lock.

Now I have 3 zt and one lone para2.

I am on my last native for the same reason and it is for sale. If only there were a high end frame and steel without a spyder hump and a full length cutting edge on a 3” spyderco! I would buy several.