Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

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Evil D
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Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:17 am

I have a feeling this is going to spark into a trend after the Rock Jumper comes. I know Sal mentioned that it's a challenging design but I have faith. I think it's a natural evolution of the design.


That said, I was always impressed by the Grasshopper design. Now, I know the handle shape here is meant to fit individual fingers, but see how the shape of the handle flows directly into the shape of the ricasso? If the edge doesn't go all the way to the handle (ala Caribbean) then why not design the handle so it flows with the ricasso this way?


Image


I guess it's similar to a 50/50 choil, but it seems like the ricasso could be pushed back a bit to move the edge closer to the handle. This may be a small knife but I think the overall design could be accomplished on a larger scale and get the same effects. The bottom of the handle can be shaped however it needs to be as long as it flows into the ricasso this way.
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Sonorum » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:24 am

It's an interesting question. I have thought about this as well. Above the size of a Native I personally don't need a forward finger choil but would like more edge. I know the reason for having a picasso is to avoid slicing your fingers but if more edge could be gotten of out of say an Endela I think it would be even better.
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:27 am

Sonorum wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:24 am
It's an interesting question. I have thought about this as well. Above the size of a Native I personally don't need a forward finger choil but would like more edge. I know the reason for having a picasso is to avoid slicing your fingers but if more edge could be gotten of out of say an Endela I think it would be even better.


Exactly, and I think the Grasshopper design would still fall into your finger instead of cutting you.
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:46 am

As long as there is a hidden ricasso so the one handed closing of dropping the ricasso onto your forefinger can be done, then I will be happy.

In the rock jumper thread it was stated this was an important part of the design. So I would hope that would continue to be a design criteria. Given spyderco has pretty much always implemented that as a design criteria, Im sure they would continue to do so. I just had to say it.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby SpyderNut » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:47 am

It’s definitely worth a shot, but it would also depend on the type of lock or folding mechanism used. On a slip-joint or lock-back design, the kick needs to remain in place on the blade so that it prevents the Blade’s edge and tip from contacting the back of the handle. However, reducing the kick and ricasso shouldn’t be an issue if using a liner lock, frame lock, or compression lock—or maybe even a modified detent-held slip-joint.


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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:49 am

SpyderNut wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:47 am
It’s definitely worth a shot, but it would also depend on the type of lock or folding mechanism used. On a slip-joint or lock-back design, the kick needs to remain in place on the blade so that it prevents the Blade’s edge and tip from contacting the back of the handle. However, reducing the kick and ricasso shouldn’t be an issue if using a liner lock, frame lock, or compression lock—or maybe even a modified detent-held slip-joint.


Couldn't internal stop pins take care of the kick's job?
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby SpyderNut » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:15 am

Evil D wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:49 am
SpyderNut wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:47 am
It’s definitely worth a shot, but it would also depend on the type of lock or folding mechanism used. On a slip-joint or lock-back design, the kick needs to remain in place on the blade so that it prevents the Blade’s edge and tip from contacting the back of the handle. However, reducing the kick and ricasso shouldn’t be an issue if using a liner lock, frame lock, or compression lock—or maybe even a modified detent-held slip-joint.


Couldn't internal stop pins take care of the kick's job?
Yes, I believe they could. I once made a folding trapper that had both a stop pin and a faux “spring” bar. The bar and kick in this model were really just there to maintain the traditional look of the design. The blade actually came to rest on the internal stop pin itself, so really no need for a kick.
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"...as I said before, 'the edge is a wondrous thing', [but] in all of it's qualities, it is still a ghost." - sal

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby p_atrick » Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:06 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:17 am
I have a feeling this is going to spark into a trend after the Rock Jumper comes.
What do you mean by trend exactly? I could see the release of future knives with a Rock Jumper-like blade, but I don't see the Endura family of knives being revamped to this blade style.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:12 pm

p_atrick wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:06 pm
Evil D wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:17 am
I have a feeling this is going to spark into a trend after the Rock Jumper comes.
What do you mean by trend exactly? I could see the release of future knives with a Rock Jumper-like blade, but I don't see the Endura family of knives being revamped to this blade style.

Hopefully just a new design element that makes it's way into future back lock designs. The Delica/Endura will eventually get updated one way or another. If this turns out to be a bit and seen as an improvement I would expect it to make it's way into the main back lock models.
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Pancake » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:20 pm

Yes and yes
My wet dream is still backlock Caribbean.
Like, I don't hate choils or ricasso area with no edge, but edge all the way to the handle is as efficient as it could be.
None of my fixed blades have a choil, because you don't need one when your index finger is like 1.5 cm from the edge ...
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Notsurewhy » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:29 pm

My favorite of this type is the centofante. Hidden ricasso allows for one handed closing but blade goes all the way to the handle. Screw construction cqi please!

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby derangedhermit » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:28 pm

I don't really care much about one-handed closing. One hand on the grip and one on the blade gives much better control. I almost always close back lock knives with two hands. When I close them with one hand, I don't have fingers on the edge side of the blade except at the beginning to squeeze to release the lock.

If I anticipated wanting to always close a knife with one hand, I would pick a lock type that encouraged a grip with no fleshy bits in the edge path. I think that means the lock release has to be somewhere else.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Robishere » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:49 pm

I LOVE this idea. Sad as it is I got rid of all 4 para3 models I had and have a lone m390 titanium para2.
Why? I found I liked cutting length over “choking up” simply to accommodate being unable to move my thumb up due to a spydie hump.....hence shorten the blade and add a choil.
Here is my question....with such a vast array of 3 inch blades, 99% with a finger choil...WHY can’t the native have a cutting edge to the handle? It is so beautiful of a design to slide my thumb anywhere’s I want...why oh why do I need a stubby cutting edge and a finger choil?
Just imagine the native where you can use your thumb wherever with a nice long cutting edge and eliminating the finger choil, they do not have to account for a spydie hump that is not there.
Leave the finger choils to the spydie humps where they are needed?

I am a great fan of long cutting edges!
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:38 pm

Robishere wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:49 pm
.....
Here is my question....with such a vast array of 3 inch blades, 99% with a finger choil...WHY can’t the native have a cutting edge to the handle? It is so beautiful of a design to slide my thumb anywhere’s I want...why oh why do I need a stubby cutting edge and a finger choil?
Just imagine the native where you can use your thumb wherever with a nice long cutting edge and eliminating the finger choil, they do not have to account for a soudie humo that is not there.
Leave the finger choils to the spydie humps where they are needed?

I am a great fan of long cutting edges!
+1

I have proposed this several times myself and am totally with you! And you have to imagine: If the Native had no choil, not only the cutting edge would be longer, but also the grip area on the handle (cause the handle part of the choil would not be there)!

As I always say:

- A choil is fine in really small folders (Chaparral and smaller like DFly), when the actual overall handle length (so the FRN, G10... part) would not offer enough space for a good four finger grip anyway, regardless how it was shaped, and a choil is mandatory for that four finger grip
- And a choil is fine in larger folders (PM2 and bigger), where despite the choil one still has a good four finger grip behind the choil.
- But not so much in the Native size category. Here a choil sacrifices cutting edge AND somehow "cripples" an otherwise long enough handle...

Actually, as much as I loved my Native, that is why I sold it and got the Chap as an alternative that makes a lot more sense (for me personally)
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:44 pm

I personally never use the "let the blade drop on your finger" closing method, and so would not need a (hidden or not) Ricasso at all (but I get that many others like this method!).

So one of my dream knives would be a Delica with:

a) an edge all the way to the handle and
b) a blade that would be lengthend to fill all of the available space inside the handle when the knife is closed (on the current Delica there is space left in order to keep the blade under 3" for legal reasons I guess)

I happen to be one of those who really loves the Delica ergos (despite having XL-ish hands), and this would give you an almost Endura length cutting edge in the very compact and light Delica-package... :rolleyes:
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Robishere » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:01 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:44 pm
I personally never use the "let the blade drop on your finger" closing method, and so would not need a (hidden or not) Ricasso at all (but I get that many others like this method!).

So one of my dream knives would be a Delica with:

a) an edge all the way to the handle and
b) a blade that would be lengthend to fill all of the available space inside the handle when the knife is closed (on the current Delica there is space left in order to keep the blade under 3" for legal reasons I guess)
I completely agree. After carrying my ZT0652 around and having a 3” blade with great leverage and. 3” cutting edge, I went to my sesk and took out a Native5 s35vn and just couldn’t STAND the short cutting edge. It has good ergonomics and it is ruined by a short cutting edge.
Why not offer it as an option at least with no finger choil? And I love the idea of using the whole handle for the blade.
There are so many 3” with a finger choil, but the native having an arch back to grip wherever with the thumb just cries out to eliminate the choil.
When I heard the native5 s35vn was going linerless I ran out to buy 3. Now I am selling all 3.
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:04 pm

Robishere wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:01 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:44 pm
I personally never use the "let the blade drop on your finger" closing method, and so would not need a (hidden or not) Ricasso at all (but I get that many others like this method!).

So one of my dream knives would be a Delica with:

a) an edge all the way to the handle and
b) a blade that would be lengthend to fill all of the available space inside the handle when the knife is closed (on the current Delica there is space left in order to keep the blade under 3" for legal reasons I guess)
I completely agree. After carrying my ZT0652 around and having a 3” blade with great leverage and. 3” cutting edge, I went to my sesk and took out a Native5 s35vn and just couldn’t STAND the short cutting edge. It has good ergonomics and it is ruined by a short cutting edge.
Why not offer it as an option at least with no finger choil? And I love the idea of using the whole handle for the blade.
There are so many 3” with a finger choil, but the native having an arch back to grip wherever with the thumb just cries out to eliminate the choil.

When I heard the native5 s35vn was going linerless I ran out to buy 3. Now I am selling all 3.
Well... I sold mine too... ;) viewtopic.php?p=1407289#p1407283
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby PSquared » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:36 am

Notsurewhy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:29 pm
My favorite of this type is the centofante. Hidden ricasso allows for one handed closing but blade goes all the way to the handle. Screw construction cqi please!
The Centofante III is one of my favourite lock backs because the edge goes so far back. Both of mine are pretty stiff as is my Centofante IV and I now suspect that the reason that they are still pinned rather than have an adjustable pivot is to prevent adjustment to a free falling blade that will increase the risk of the user drawing blood if closed one handed. But I'm just trying to find reasons why we haven't seen any CQI on the Centofante III since 2004.

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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby Evil D » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:44 am

PSquared wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:36 am
Notsurewhy wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:29 pm
My favorite of this type is the centofante. Hidden ricasso allows for one handed closing but blade goes all the way to the handle. Screw construction cqi please!
The Centofante III is one of my favourite lock backs because the edge goes so far back. Both of mine are pretty stiff as is my Centofante IV and I now suspect that the reason that they are still pinned rather than have an adjustable pivot is to prevent adjustment to a free falling blade that will increase the risk of the user drawing blood if closed one handed. But I'm just trying to find reasons why we haven't seen any CQI on the Centofante III since 2004.

Image

I'm just guessing but I assumed it was still in production in honor of Frank. Otherwise it has definitely been on autopilot for quite a while. I'd buy one if they did away with the sharpening notch and offered them in SE.
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Re: Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

Postby sal » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:58 am

Hi all,

Interesting discussion.

While some of you are not interested or do not use "one-hand-close", it was an important part of the design when we made our first model in 1981. That's because many knife users liked the one-hand-close aspect of the design.

Also, we need to pay attention to sales of the various models. Knives with "kicks" or "finger choils" far outsell models that don't have those features.

Hi David,

On the Centofante, Frank wanted the full edge and the sharpening choil. We used those features for him.

sal


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