Dragonfly XL Proposal

[kennethsime]

...and here it is with a 3" blade and a slightly cleaner handle butt.

[Sumdumguy]

...and here it is with a 3" blade and a slightly cleaner handle butt.

Looks like a Delica with a choil, interesting.

Delicafly?

[DougC-3]

A few years back when I was buying my 3 Dragonfly knives and bubbling over with enthusiasm, I whined for a bigger one and suggested an exact upscale, because I liked the short broad look of the blade. But now, even though I carry my Super Blue model every day as a 2nd knife, I have an issue with the ergos even of this size -- the empty space under your middle two fingers in the choil grip, with my hand at least, YMMV. So I wouldn't go any bigger than David's drawing without doing something more about the handle grip ergos.

But what I'd like to see is a slightly bigger one with 1:1 BLADE upscale* (or as near as possible) and improvements to handle ergos. I think the blade proportions are the defining thing about the D-fly's personality, if you will, and should remain the same or as close as possible. Likewise, the Native Chief looks like a whole different knife from the Native to me, which is OK of course :)

So what I'm saying, I guess, is that I like the version in kennethsime's first drawing best, only with improved handle ergos. In the 7" size, I'd like a slightly shorter, deeper choil than 1:1 scale (Manix size choil would be perfect) and more support for the two middle fingers.

For me, the handle ergo improvements would be to just make the choil and index finger dip behind the choil ("secondary choil"?) exactly like those of the Manix 2.

*Edit: I was trying to say keep the same length to width ratio.

[Mushroom]

Maybe the Caly Jr. could be the solution to a "Dragonfly XL?" In my opinion, it would fit that description perfect if it had a tip up reversible wire clip and Spyderco's current bidirectional texture. Other than that though, the blade profiles look very similar to me. Some people might even consider the ergonomics of the Caly Jr. an improvement over the Dragonfly. :spyder:

[kennethsime]

Maybe the Caly Jr. could be the solution to a "Dragonfly XL?" In my opinion, it would fit that description perfect if it had a tip up reversible wire clip and Spyderco's current bidirectional texture. Other than that though, the blade profiles look very similar to me. Some people might even consider the ergonomics of the Caly Jr. an improvement over the Dragonfly. :spyder:

An updated Caly Jr. sure would be great!

Truthfully, the Caly 3 is pretty darn similar to a 3" Dragonfly. But I'd be happy to own both. :-)

[ugaarguy]

Maybe the Caly Jr. could be the solution to a "Dragonfly XL?" In my opinion, it would fit that description perfect if it had a tip up reversible wire clip and Spyderco's current bidirectional texture. Other than that though, the blade profiles look very similar to me. Some people might even consider the ergonomics of the Caly Jr. an improvement over the Dragonfly. :spyder:

The Native 5 LW has renewed my appreciation for back locks. I'd like to see the liner-less Caly Jr FRN returned as a regular production item with the same texture as the Chaparral LW and Sage 5 LW. The wire clip would be icing on the cake.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Count me in n for an XL unlike some I have no issue with scaling an existing design in either direction.

Look how great the Native Chief is.

The Chief is not just a scaled up Native 5 though. It maintains the exact same ergonomics as the Native 5 and basically just extends the blade and handle. Based on the numerous examples we have of Spyderco actually doing this, the drawing Evil D did seems like exactly how Spyderco would design a larger Dragonfly.

Taking an existing model, simply making it 25% larger, and then releasing it as some new well thought out design is just lazy design and kind of deceptive marketing, in my opinion. It changes everything about the ergonomics of the model

When people asked for a "smaller PM2", I know for a fact people were expecting a scaled down PM2 (Just a certain percentage smaller). This would have completely abandoned the ergonomics of the PM2 that everyone already loved. So, instead, we got the Para 3! It maintains nearly the same ergonomics as the PM2 that were so successful and delivers the smaller size that was being frequently requested. Which in my opinion is the much better solution.

:spyder:

I like both solutions.

[DougC-3]

Those would be great knives, but I think you'd have to retain more of the Dragonfly's broad length-to-width blade ratio to claim it as a Dragonfly relative.

[Rinzler]

So this is like a smaller manix 2 with an inferior lock?

I wouldn't be interested.

[benben]

As Evil said, been discussed many times here before, I’ve always been in favor of this idea and will buy one regardless of the final size, materials, or design. I’m in!

[araneae]

Maybe the Caly Jr. could be the solution to a "Dragonfly XL?" In my opinion, it would fit that description perfect if it had a tip up reversible wire clip and Spyderco's current bidirectional texture. Other than that though, the blade profiles look very similar to me. Some people might even consider the ergonomics of the Caly Jr. an improvement over the Dragonfly. :spyder:

The Native 5 LW has renewed my appreciation for back locks. I'd like to see the liner-less Caly Jr FRN returned as a regular production item with the same texture as the Chaparral LW and Sage 5 LW. The wire clip would be icing on the cake.

As someone who owns a pile of Dragonflies and has used them for probably approaching 20 years, I just can't say for sure how I'd feel about a larger one. David's drawing is interesting for sure, but as mentioned, the Caly Jr has a similar vibe honestly I think I'd prefer to see an updated Caly Jr.

[Sildani]

Isn’t that a Caly 3, or a Chaparral?

[GarageBoy]

Or even spyderco R?

[Sonorum]

I'm quite satisfied with my Native so I'm out unfortunately.

[kennethsime]

Isn’t that a Caly 3, or a Chaparral?

Or even spyderco R?

Closer to the Caly 3 than the other two mentioned I think.

[Wartstein]

For me personally if a model is changed in size (smaller or larger) successfully or not so much comes down a lot to how good use is made of the available overall handle area. Or also, how the handle is generally shaped. But also some other factors play a role

Let´s take the Delica: Imho a perfect example of a "small" Endura:

- The general shape of the Endura handle lends itself to work also in the smaller version, cause there is no length restricting "hook"/"rear guard" towards the end
- As a consequence the shorter Delica handle still makes good us of the general length it offers, and still gives you a good four finger grip (plus still the option to choke up on the Ricasso)
- Plus: The Delica is made smaller in some other dimensions, very clever for a smaller knife: Thinner bladestock, less wide and thinner handle and by that carry.

Now let´s take the Para 3 (sorry, I DON`T mean to "bash" this knife, it is just perfect for illustrating what I mean) as an imho not so perfect example of a "small" PM2:

- The general length of the Para 3 handle COULD give you a good four finger grip (for larger hands), but being a smaller PM2 handle it does not. While the PM2 "hugs" your hand perfectly in the area between front guard and "rear guard", that very same design does not work on the shorter Para 3, due to offering not enough space for larger hands.
- As a consequence you have a relatively "bulky" and big package, but still a knife you have to choke up on the choil for a good four finger grip
- Additionally the blade was not made thinner, and the handle not less wide or thinner.

Then there are the knives which have a handle that would be too short anyway for a good four finger grip, so a choil for choking up is mandatory and a clever solution (DFly, Chap...)

So: If I personally would like a Dragonfly XL depends a lot on how well it would make use of the available handle area

[Sumdumguy]

So this is like a smaller manix 2 with an inferior lock?

I wouldn't be interested.

I LOL'd at the inferior lock comment! That's like smacking a puppy in these parts, you might wanna run.

I have a Dragonfly waiting on me when I get home, unless my wife has found it first. I'll know more about my desires for an XL when I get home.

[kennethsime]

For me personally if a model is changed in size (smaller or larger) successfully or not so much comes down a lot to how good use is made of the available overall handle area. Or also, how the handle is generally shaped. But also some other factors play a role

Let´s take the Delica: Imho a perfect example of a "small" Endura:

- The general shape of the Endura handle lends itself to work also in the smaller version, cause there is no length restricting "hook"/"rear guard" towards the end
- As a consequence the shorter Delica handle still makes good us of the general length it offers, and still gives you a good four finger grip (plus still the option to choke up on the Ricasso)
- Plus: The Delica is made smaller in some other dimensions, very clever for a smaller knife: Thinner bladestock, less wide and thinner handle and by that carry.

Now let´s take the Para 3 (sorry, I DON`T mean to "bash" this knife, it is just perfect for illustrating what I mean) as an imho not so perfect example of a "small" PM2:

- The general length of the Para 3 handle COULD give you a good four finger grip (for larger hands), but being a smaller PM2 handle it does not. While the PM2 "hugs" your hand perfectly in the area between front guard and "rear guard", that very same design does not work on the shorter Para 3, due to offering not enough space for larger hands.
- As a consequence you have a relatively "bulky" and big package, but still a knife you have to choke up on the choil for a good four finger grip
- Additionally the blade was not made thinner, and the handle not less wide or thinner.

Then there are the knives which have a handle that would be too short anyway for a good four finger grip, so a choil for choking up is mandatory and a clever solution (DFly, Chap...)

So: If I personally would like a Dragonfly XL depends a lot on how well it would make use of the available handle area

Hey Warstein,

Good points on all fronts. I think you may have just pointed out the key differences in our preferences. :-)

I think the reason I like the Para 3 so much (and really all my favorite Spydercos) is that I pretty much always use the choil.

I have pretty large hands (usually wear a size L for a snug fit or XL for a comfy fit), and I just sampled the Para 3, PM2, and Stretch. While the PM2 and Stretch do offer a 4-finger grip without the use of the choil, I wouldn't know - I never use this grip. I also tend to do fine with a 3" blade for EDC, though I do like the 3.5" or so for weekends. So when the Para 3 came along and "trimmed the fat," from the PM2, I was enamored. The grip I like still works great, the blade offers "just what I need," and its diminutive stature almost makes it cute, even to non-knife aficionados.

Likewise, while I love the Delica, I've always wanted a Delica with a choil. I don't have one to check right now, but according to Spyderco the Delica has a 4.25in handle and as comparison, the Para 3 has a 4.29in handle. If memory serves, the Delica is more of a 3-finger grip for me, unless I choke up on the ricasso. Doing so isn't very comfortable, and the grip feels much less secure than a proper choil: I worry about my finger slipping and cutting myself.

I will say, I love the Delica in every other way. While the Para 3 meets my needs most of the time, I'd love a lightweight, 3" knife that's super thin like the Delica for occasions when the Para is too much. I think I'll pickup a Para 3 LW when a good sprint comes along. I think I'll pick up a Bryd Meadowlark 2 at some point, though I wish we could get a Spyderco version made in Seki. Or better yet, a Straight Spine Stretch 3in (pointy tip, choil, and swell instead of the Delica's points). Or a Dragonfly 3in. Or both. :D

Because Sal and other Spyderco Team members browse the forums, I feel the need to say that I appreciate all that Spyderco offers us already. Innovative, ergonomic, high-performance designs, the latest and greatest steels available, and high value across a wide array of price points. There's definitely something for everybody, and I don't mean to suggest that the line isn't "complete" already. I also understand that Spyderco's got to produce what they think will sell best, and my unique desires may not always line up with that. But it can't hurt to shoot for the moon. Anyway, thanx much SpyderCrew!

[Wartstein]

For me personally if a model is changed in size (smaller or larger) successfully or not so much comes down a lot to how good use is made of the available overall handle area. Or also, how the handle is generally shaped. But also some other factors play a role

Let´s take the Delica: Imho a perfect example of a "small" Endura:

- The general shape of the Endura handle lends itself to work also in the smaller version, cause there is no length restricting "hook"/"rear guard" towards the end
- As a consequence the shorter Delica handle still makes good us of the general length it offers, and still gives you a good four finger grip (plus still the option to choke up on the Ricasso)
- Plus: The Delica is made smaller in some other dimensions, very clever for a smaller knife: Thinner bladestock, less wide and thinner handle and by that carry.

Now let´s take the Para 3 (sorry, I DON`T mean to "bash" this knife, it is just perfect for illustrating what I mean) as an imho not so perfect example of a "small" PM2:

- The general length of the Para 3 handle COULD give you a good four finger grip (for larger hands), but being a smaller PM2 handle it does not. While the PM2 "hugs" your hand perfectly in the area between front guard and "rear guard", that very same design does not work on the shorter Para 3, due to offering not enough space for larger hands.
- As a consequence you have a relatively "bulky" and big package, but still a knife you have to choke up on the choil for a good four finger grip
- Additionally the blade was not made thinner, and the handle not less wide or thinner.

Then there are the knives which have a handle that would be too short anyway for a good four finger grip, so a choil for choking up is mandatory and a clever solution (DFly, Chap...)

So: If I personally would like a Dragonfly XL depends a lot on how well it would make use of the available handle area

Hey Warstein,

Good points on all fronts. I think you may have just pointed out the key differences in our preferences. :-)

I think the reason I like the Para 3 so much (and really all my favorite Spydercos) is that I pretty much always use the choil.

I have pretty large hands (usually wear a size L for a snug fit or XL for a comfy fit), and I just sampled the Para 3, PM2, and Stretch. While the PM2 and Stretch do offer a 4-finger grip without the use of the choil, I wouldn't know - I never use this grip. I also tend to do fine with a 3" blade for EDC, though I do like the 3.5" or so for weekends. So when the Para 3 came along and "trimmed the fat," from the PM2, I was enamored. The grip I like still works great, the blade offers "just what I need," and its diminutive stature almost makes it cute, even to non-knife aficionados.

Likewise, while I love the Delica, I've always wanted a Delica with a choil. I don't have one to check right now, but according to Spyderco the Delica has a 4.25in handle and as comparison, the Para 3 has a 4.29in handle. If memory serves, the Delica is more of a 3-finger grip for me, unless I choke up on the ricasso. Doing so isn't very comfortable, and the grip feels much less secure than a proper choil: I worry about my finger slipping and cutting myself.

I will say, I love the Delica in every other way. While the Para 3 meets my needs most of the time, I'd love a lightweight, 3" knife that's super thin like the Delica for occasions when the Para is too much. I think I'll pickup a Para 3 LW when a good sprint comes along. I think I'll pick up a Bryd Meadowlark 2 at some point, though I wish we could get a Spyderco version made in Seki. Or better yet, a Straight Spine Stretch 3in (pointy tip, choil, and swell instead of the Delica's points). Or a Dragonfly 3in. Or both. :D

Because Sal and other Spyderco Team members browse the forums, I feel the need to say that I appreciate all that Spyderco offers us already. Innovative, ergonomic, high-performance designs, the latest and greatest steels available, and high value across a wide array of price points. There's definitely something for everybody, and I don't mean to suggest that the line isn't "complete" already. I also understand that Spyderco's got to produce what they think will sell best, and my unique desires may not always line up with that. But it can't hurt to shoot for the moon. Anyway, thanx much SpyderCrew!

Thanks for your reply, my friend, and that you did not take my post as a "bashing" of the Para 3! :)

But I think my point did not really make it through to you

YES, the Delica and the Para 3 have similar overall handle-length.

BUT (and that IS my point), while the Delica makes perfect use of this available, relatively short length by having NO choil in the handle part and NO "hook" at the end of the handle (which both shorten the available actual grip-area on the handle, the Para 3 does just the opposite.

Look at the pics I attached below: Same handle length (FRN / G10 part), but the Para three actually deliberately makes the downside area of the handle, where the fingers can be placed, super-short, the Delica super-long.
Third pic: Sage 5 LW, for me the WAY better "Para 3" for several reasons, but one exactly IS: It HAS a choil, but still maximizes the grip area behindd the choil...

That´s also what I meant when I wrote:

- "The general shape of the Endura handle lends itself to work also in the smaller version, cause there is no length restricting "hook"/"rear guard" towards the end
- As a consequence the shorter Delica handle still makes good us of the general length it offers, and still gives you a good four finger grip"

And

- The general length of the Para 3 handle COULD give you a good four finger grip (for larger hands), but being a smaller PM2 handle it does not. While the PM2 "hugs" your hand perfectly in the area between front guard and "rear guard", that very same design does not work on the shorter Para 3, due to offering not enough space for larger hands.
- As a consequence you have a relatively "bulky" and big package, but still a knife you have to choke up on the choil for a good four finger grip

As a matter of fact the Delica offers an actual GRIP area on the actual handle that is perhaps longer than even on a PM2 (or at least as long, can´t check right now)! NO WAY the Delica is just a "three finger knife" as you say (I have L to XL hands, and it offers a comfortable FOUR finger grip without having to choke up)

/ Concerning choking up on the Ricasso of a Delica/Endura: That´s personal preference of course! For me personally though :Totally safe and really comfortable, plus it gives me more control than an actual (deeper) choil... but I won´t go into detail here

Just get a Delica and try for yourself! :D I am sure you´ll also LOVE the thin, but still strong blade, especially compared to the "fat" Para 3 blade!

[kennethsime]

Thanks for your reply, my friend, and that you did not take my post as a "bashing" of the Para 3! :)

But I think my point did not really make it through to you

Hey Warstein,

So if I understand right, you prefer to use a choil-less grip, and your two complaints about the Para 3 handle is choil (which reduces the non-choil grip area) and the secondary swell (or hook) at the end of the handle (which reduces that same area)? Is that right?

I made a chart to help me visualize.



I pulled the baseline measurements from Spyderco's website, scaled the vector images to size, then measured what I saw as the "useable grip area" for each knife in Illustrator. Not perfect, but pretty close I think.

I see the point now that the Delica has more room on the handle than any of the other offerings we've talked about so far.

I think that if you don't like choils, it totally makes sense that you'd find the Delica to be more comfortable. I like choils, and pretty much always choke up, and I find the Para 3 to be more comfortable. I think I'd also like the Sage 5, although I didn't find it to have more purchase area or "useable grip" than the Para 3. The Native 5 is next on my list to try out, so I thought I'd see how it compares in the same test. I'd love to find one in Maxamet at a reasonable price, or if I'm lucky I'll have a chance to pick up the Rex45 sprint.

Later I thought, "Hey, why don't we pull a more direct comparison to illustrate the usefulness of the choil!" So I pulled a Byrd Meadowlark 2 FRN/LW, and wow I was surprised.

The meadowlark manages to pack the same blade as the Delica into a smaller overall handle length with even more useable grip area (if you're willing to choke up into the choil). Even if you don't want to choke up, it offers more grip area than any of the other knives we're discussing other than the Delica (and it's close). If you added in the extra handle length from the Delica, you'd end up with a knife that offers even more purchase area behind the choil PLUS the ability to choke up when needed. That's pretty cool if you ask me. :cool:

Now if we could get one made in Seki... :D