form follows function

[skeeg11]

Hello fellow forumites---

After lurking for quite some time I finally decided to register. So refreshing to find a civilized forum eschewing shiny footprints. So facinating to view the broad and diverse viewpoints on subjects like ergos, edge junkjies, steel junkies, etc. What I find most interesting and would like to see more discussion of is the subtleties of form factor.

It would be unreasonable to expect the analytical details and decisions behind the blade geometries of every knife that Spyder has ever made, but discussion of why the "form follows function" aspect of some of your favorite (or unusual) knives has endeared itself to you would be welcome.

Spyderco has collaborated with some of the most brilliant minds in custom knifemaking. Would like to hear from them more often. We are so blessed to have access to a knife company like Spyderco. They truly listen to and consider what their fan base has to say. They bring us much joy. Still, as great a company as Spyderco is, it can't be all things to everyone. Some niches are better off left to smaller companies or custom makers. Spyderco does many great things. Some it can't.

For example:

Their famous 12-13mm trademark Spydie hole method of deployment is the company's most distinguishing feature. Making a slender knife with a slender blade would be impossible. That was in the past. Now that Spyderco is exploring other methods of deployment like the front flipper on the Ikuchi, slender bladed locking folders are now possible. I know that this is a Spyderco forum, but believe it or not, some people like slender blades without big holes in them. Sacriledge, I know. <g> Whether Spyderco will expand and move in this direction, probably only Sal and Eric know for sure. Although not marketed as such, I think the Ikuchi is a brilliant trout and bird knife design with appropriate neutral blade angle. The blade geometry practically screams Phil Wilson without the finger guard.

I see many edge junkies and steel junkies, but for me, functional form factor is my first consideration. A while back, someone was asking for opinions re: small game knives. I wasn't registered so I didn't offer one but my unhesitating answer would have been and is the Schrade/Uncle Henry model 877UH. Not all gut hooks/zippers are created equal. In fact, at the time, most were poorly designed. Excluding the time it takes to put on a vinyl glove and wipe off the blade, it takes less than 5 seconds to unzip and field dress a cottontail WITHOUT NICKING THE GUTS. Is this the greatest thing since sliced bread? When it comes to small game knives, the answer is "Yes, so far". Could it be better? Very much so. The fact that it was made of less than stellar steel only illustrated the importance of form factor in the broad scheme of things. Would have loved to see something similar by Spyderco. It is, however, such a small niche that its viable commercial success would come into question. Spydercos business model seems to be a good one and they must devote most of their attention to their core demographic. Fashion vs. function is something even knife companies must consider although I very much admire Sal's design in the dark philosophy.

I greatly appreciate and admire what Spyderco has done in the past and look forward to what they come up with in the future.........especially in LC200N.

[Evil D]

Spyderco seem to design knives with use in mind before looks (some collaborations seem to go the other way sometimes). There seems to be a high priority on ergonomics and intended use, and then looks become a result of that combo. I think a lot of other companies try to make "cool looking" knives and ergonomics are maybe not last priority but some companies seem to not understand what a human hand looks like.

As for the small hole thing, it just depends on the knife and the intended use. A small hole is fine on a knife like the Nilakka, but on a Salt/Military/Recue or any other model that's being carried and used in tense situations, that large hole is super important.

[Wartstein]

Welcome to the forum, skeeg11!

[Doc Dan]

Sal and Eric are masters of ergonomics. They seem to design around the idea of how to make the most comfortable efficient cutting tools possible so there is rarely the sleek look of a traditional. My hand doesn’t care so much about looks when holding the knife. Spyderco came close with the Roadie. If they backed the hump/divot up and clipped the point it would be a marvelous take on a traditional.

[VooDooChild]

Spyderco still mostly sticks to their type of knives and have been very successful for it. They have had and do have plenty of oppurtunities to make other type of designs but outside of a few models in certain categories they dont seem to keen on trying to out do the other companies who make a lot of those other designs.

They made some balisongs but didnt try to corner the market. They have made a handful of autos but only a small number compared to the rest of their catalog. Theres a few flippers but nothing compared to other companies who seem to make every knife a flipper. Im sure there will be a few front flippers as well, but probably only a few models. I wouldnt be concerned about other opening methods having too much of an impact on spydercos design philosophy. I think they will always make some models that might be outside of their wheelhouse so to speak, but only because thats what they do, they make knives.

[sal]

Hi Skeeg,

Welcome to our forum and thanx much for the kind comments. We did make a gut-hook folder designed by a custom maker in South Africa. It performed very well and was considered to be one of the best gut-hook models on the market. It was a small market and eventually that market was served. I imagine we could do a spint run if there is enough demand.

sal

[skeeg11]

Double post. Sorry, I'm a newbie.

[justjohn]

Welcome Skeeg and let me say you definitely have a way with words! I really enjoyed reading your post. Hope to see and read a lot more of you. :D

[skeeg11]

Welcome Skeeg and let me say you definitely have a way with words! I really enjoyed reading your post. Hope to see and read a lot more of you. :D

Thank you for the warm welcome.

[skeeg11]

Hi Skeeg,

Welcome to our forum and thanx much for the kind comments. We did make a gut-hook folder designed by a custom maker in South Africa. It performed very well and was considered to be one of the best gut-hook models on the market. It was a small market and eventually that market was served. I imagine we could do a spint run if there is enough demand.

sal

Hi Sal---

Appreciate the personal welcome.

Never had the opportunity to handle or examine your Impala Gut Hook Big Game folder. Hard to tell from the archived picture, but it looks like the Gut Hook disappeared into the handle when closed. Nice touch!

The reason I waxed so poetic over the 877Uh was because it truly was designed for small game and not just a downsized Big Game gut hook skinner. The gut hook was appropriately sized and angled so that the draw when unzipping a critter was effortlessly buttah smoothe without nicking the innards. So quick and efficient. Pocket friendly, too. The slender blade is only 3/8" tall in front of the ricasso. First use was one of those epiphany type moments that replay in the back of your mind in slo-mo. All high carbon, stainless, and damascus trapper style slippies were instantly retired. The niche is so small that I was concerned enough about future availability and immediately bought 3 more for myself and half a dozen for friends. Then again, I suspect that I'm not your typical consumer as probably most impassioned forumites are, too.

There is no question that Spyderco can make a far superior small game folder. The sad reality is that most design ideas probably stumble over the first hurdle of marketing appeal. No getting around that a product must be profitable to justify its manufacture. You just never know for sure. No one likes losing their shirt. Not saying he lost his shirt, but try as he might, Sal could not justify keeping a folding filet in the lineup. That is a puzzlment. Targeting the wrong demographic? In my mind only (or what's left of it) I can't help imagining that Sal has on speed dial the number of one of the most if not the most pre-eminent custom filet knife maker on the planet. So many questions. So many ideas. I have faith in the Spyderco team to sort things out.

[Christian Noble]

Hi Skeeg,

LONG-TIME lurker myself (until just now) and greatly appreciate your thoughts. While I am not adept to the manufacturing process of folding knives, I do appreciate many Spyderco models for their simplicity. Unlike in the "old-days" when folks used their cutting tools to make a livelihood and demanded the best of their blacksmith, many manufacturers today add this and that to market their products.

“The height of cultivation runs to simplicity.
Halfway cultivation runs to ornamentation.”
— Bruce Lee

I couldn't attend SHOT this year, but watched many of the videos and was truly impressed when Eric mentioned several times that Spyderco would let the market dictate the company's direction. Kudos to Spyderco for listening to their customers.

That said, give me an old axe before the crosscut saw came to prominence and a Spyderco Salt 2 or Delica 4 and I am a happy camper. Ok, maybe a Pacific Salt 2 as well -- just ordered one. ;-)

[sal]

Hi Skeeg,

I thought I might just purchase one of the 877UH models which would give me a better idea of what you are talking about. I guess we can go from there. How do you sharpen that guthook?

sal

[skeeg11]

Hi Skeeg,

LONG-TIME lurker myself (until just now) and greatly appreciate your thoughts. While I am not adept to the manufacturing process of folding knives, I do appreciate many Spyderco models for their simplicity. Unlike in the "old-days" when folks used their cutting tools to make a livelihood and demanded the best of their blacksmith, many manufacturers today add this and that to market their products.

“The height of cultivation runs to simplicity.
Halfway cultivation runs to ornamentation.”
— Bruce Lee

I couldn't attend SHOT this year, but watched many of the videos and was truly impressed when Eric mentioned several times that Spyderco would let the market dictate the company's direction. Kudos to Spyderco for listening to their customers.

That said, give me an old axe before the crosscut saw came to prominence and a Spyderco Salt 2 or Delica 4 and I am a happy camper. Ok, maybe a Pacific Salt 2 as well -- just ordered one. ;-)

Hi Christian---

I agree most wholeheartedly. Functional simplicity throughout much of their lineup is one of the things I find most attractive about Spyderco as a company. Good ergos, a wide variety of steels to choose from, and a good selection of functional blades shapes. People can see where the value of their knife lies or where the cost of production went. I have nothing against a guy wanting some pocket jewelry, but for me, functional beauty is art on the most basic of levels. I suppose this can be a very subjective area. Some find murdery, stabby Rambo-esque looking things to be blade art, too. Art of what, I'm not quite sure of at this point. Art of intimidation? Art of marketing? I would rather run from or try to avoid any situation that would make me desireous or appreciative of this particular artform <g>

Art of Marketing? This is another area that I must tip my hat to the governorship of Spyderco. Firstly let me state that this is my impression and my impressions only. Rather than engage in superflous marketing hype for the initial sales flush that might bring, they would rather a knife stood on its own merits over the long haul. Sink or swim. A noble stance in this day and age but in a few instances a bit more information would be justified.

Take for instance the SpydieChef. In a couple of instances on the internet, I have read that it "might" be used for skinning. Nowhere have I read what a wonderful skinner it truly is. IMHO as a pocket friendly skinner it is truly GROUND BREAKING for a number of reasons. For the benefit of the few who are unfamiliar with what the skinning process entails, please forgive me if this becomes a little long winded.

Separating the hide from the carcass of furry critters is of vital importance. Some are forced by circumstance to skin their animal while laying on the ground, but by and large, most prefer to do so with the animal hung from a gambrel. With the animal in this position, most hunter skin on the down stroke. (more on this later.)

So what is a skinning knife or even more importantly, what makes for a good skinning knife? From time immemorial, many fixed blades were promoted as skinners. It's got a sweep to it. Must be a skinner. Better yet, let's slap a big ole honkin' macho lookin' brass hand guard around the ricasso and put a needle sharp pointy tip on it so we can promote it as a multipurpose, multifunctional skinner. Yup, now thars a real skinner! Yup! Skinned that ole' greenhorn out of his greenbacks.

All joking aside, there are certain features I look for in a skinner however personally subjective they may be. A skinner is mostly about the blade so let's start with the tip. Pointy tips are useful if you like holes in your hides. I have never owned a Stretch, but I view the original Stretch as being the better skinner as opposed to the Straight Spined model.

I see a surprising number of knives with small radius sweeps being promoted as skinners. A larger radius sweep allows more useful edge contact between the hide and carcass both up and down strokes with equal ease and control. It is so much quicker. The blade never leaves the carcass and hide and is in constant motion as opposed to skinning on the down stroke only as 99% of the hunters I've seen usually do. Breaking contact and raising the knife to the top again and re-estblishing alignment wastes time. Using both up and down strokes without breaking contact is actually more than twice as fast. A larger radius sweep makes this easier. Now I realize that most of us do not have access to the local friendly neighborhood Ulu brandishing Eskimo lady to illustrate the point, but perhaps somewhere in YouTube land there might be an uncensored video of someone using an Ulu to skin a seal. Ulu's are almost entirely large radius skinning sweep. Our traditional skinners not so much. On some of them almost half the blade up to 2" is straight edged thus limiting the size of the radius skinning sweep. A finger guard wrapped around the ricasso would also limit the amount of usable skinning blade, too. Non functional blade length may only ad a bit of weight, but it also sacrifices a bit of control. If you lay such a knife edge/finger guard down on a flat cutting board you'll see what I mean. While it is true that hide and flesh are a bit flexible or bendable, the skinning stroke is still usually in a straight line. A slightly positive blade angle would help a bit, but only a little. Finger guards are an important safety feature so better yet is a knife with a finger guard built into the handle instead of wrapped around the ricasso.

So let's add things up to get the sum of its parts:

Not so pointy tip.

Large radius blade sweep that is 100% functional and usable.

Slightly positive blade angle.

Finger guard recessed into the handle.

Lest we forget"

Pocket friendly.

Impervious to blood & guts.

Mine easily gets sticky sharp.

DING! DING! DING!

Winner. Winner. We have a Skinner.

It's called a SpydieChef.

Now the name alone connotes food processing, but not in my kitchen. In the field, however, it is a food processing tool par excellence.

[skeeg11]

Hi Skeeg,

I thought I might just purchase one of the 877UH models which would give me a better idea of what you are talking about. I guess we can go from there. How do you sharpen that guthook?

sal

Hi Sal---

Mine are US made. The production run of the US made model 877UH was a short one. 90/91 Some are asking crazy stupid prices on the bay for NIB.

The Schrade + steel used is on the soft side. Not my fav. Every 40-50 bunnies I would do a minor touch up on the gut hook with a DMT Diafold with a fine tapered rod. Coarse would probably do just as well.

As you're well aware, Schrade folded and the Chinese bought 'em out and moved production to China. Besides the steel used, I'm unaware of any real major changes. In comparing a picture of a Chinese made one to the US made one in my hand. the gut hook on the US made one may be a slighty shallower angle. My eyes could be deceiving me or camera optics could be at play here, too. A Chinese made 877UH is very inexpensive. If you wanted to examine a US made gut hook (blade only) to compare with the Chinese model, there is one listed on the bay for under $6 as of last night Another guy has 'em for $10.

When using the gut hook, technique is important. With the bunny on its back, hold the knife so that the knife edge is up and the gut hook is facing down. Punch the blade under the sternum. Lay the knife handle down so it almost touches its belly and draw. The reason for this is so that the knife point does not nick the entrails. It also makes for a more effortless unzipping of the bunny's belly. That's all there is to it.

[sal]

Hi Skeeg,

Can you shoot me a link? Or buy it and send it to me. I ordered 2 of the Chinese made versions and I would like to compare. As you know, if we were to make a version, we would use a good steel and high quality, but the price would be higher.

sal

[skeeg11]

Hi Skeeg,

Can you shoot me a link? Or buy it and send it to me. I ordered 2 of the Chinese made versions and I would like to compare. As you know, if we were to make a version, we would use a good steel and high quality, but the price would be higher.

sal

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Schrad ... SwZRZdgpz4

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Sm-Gut-Hook- ... 3912!US!-1

Looking forward to higher quality. Price not an issue personally.

[redhawk44357]

Without a doubt an educated man. Liked your insight. Welcome to the club.

[sal]

Thanx Skeeg,

2 knives and 2 blades on the way. Any other features you feel would be important? Would a 2 blade version, (one plain and one gut hook) be preferred?

Anybody else have interest or input to add?

sal

[Joefairbanks]

Hi Sal,
On the question of a 2 blade version- one plain and one guthook- Around 2001 I purchased a Buck Crosslock that was built that way. I used it on a few moose while living in Alaska. The guthook worked very well (I sharpened it with a EZ-Lap pocket steel). The main blade was sub-par for the rest of the field-dressing chores, so I mainly carried it for the guthook. It was a good idea, but made the knife fairly thick to carry in ones pocket. It may have worked better on smaller game like deer.
Thank you for being active on this forum, and taking genuine interest in what people would like to see. I admire that about Spyderco, and your business philosophy!

[skeeg11]

Thanx Skeeg,

2 knives and 2 blades on the way. Any other features you feel would be important? Would a 2 blade version, (one plain and one gut hook) be preferred?

Anybody else have interest or input to add?

sal

Hi Sal---

The steel was so soft on the original that a second blade was a blessing. A single PE blade with a gut hook made with good steel would certainly do a great job and be easier to manufacture; however, if I may share a dark little secret I've been harboring all these years. I can finally come out and admit that I have an unabridged desire and insatiable lust for a high quality small game knife with a secondary blade that is serrated for slicing off teeny paws and little feetsies and go through leg joints. Here in liberal Kalifornica such an admission could land me in an asylum. All kidding aside, I realize that inclusion of a serrated blade to a PE gut hook blade just made things logarithmically more difficult for the Spyderco design team, but inclusion of such makes so much sense. It is not some Phrew Phrew add on. It is both practical and desireable on such a knife. Just because something makes sense to me doesn't mean it will significantly increased market appeal. I am no marketing analyst or strategist. The only thing for sure is that the cost of manufacture will rise significantly.

There is dearth of double bladed knives sporting both a full PE and full SE. What is the reason for the lack of demand? What am I missing? Spyderco has been down this road before. Will new actions and locks make it possible to overcome design flaws of the past? New platforms would certainly be a consideration. The dual bladed concept doesn't seem to have endeared itself to the general public. The small game community is a highly specific demographic. The dual blade (full PE/full SE) just might be warmly embraced here.

The Buck gut hook design is a very good one. More on this later