Rock Jumper Thread

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Sumdumguy
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Sumdumguy » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:05 pm

sal wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:40 pm
Hi all,

Chill. It's a discussion. disagreement needs to be civil or we can't have one. All points of view are welcome and that's how we all learn. No need for name calling. Both knives and climbing are hobbies to enjoy.

sal
Respectfully, I must disagree. When the information being peddled is dangerously short sighted, it needs to be met with swift correction.

It is safer in FAR more ways than it is dangerous, to carry a knife while rock climbing. I could have toned down my nouns, I apologize if I insulted anyone's intellect, unduly.

I just ask that, in the future, we think about the implications our advice could have, when discussing such dangerous hobbies.

I will bow out, as long as the discussion is safe.

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Deadboxhero » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:29 pm

Tucson Tom wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:44 am
RustyIron wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:23 pm
Oh, my.

Sal, we can hang out, have drinks, take the girls out to dinner, but let's just agree to never climb together. Simon Yates cut a rope once. Justified or not, the dude nearly killed his friend and became a pariah. The emotional scars were deep and long lasting. Today, we may joke about climbing with a "rope knife," but really, making such a comment is dark and inappropriate in polite company.

I'm curious to see the new knife, but the notion of a rope-cutting knife for climbers does not create cheery imagery in my mind. Maybe the Spyderco Marketing Team can come up with uses for the new knife that do not have such gruesome implications.

Since hardly anyone will know what I'm talking about, just pick up a copy of Touching the Void by Joe Simpson. You don't have to be a climber to appreciate it. Outdoors types who find themselves in grueling or hazardous situations from time to time will be able to relate. And the book isn't too long, so you can finish it in a couple days.
I was going to hold my peace, but reading your comments indicate to me that I am not the only person with these thoughts.

I am a climber, and it is a general rule that I won't even climb with someone who carries a knife.

Leave that thing at home. At all costs keep your knife away from my ropes and gear.

In all my years climbing I have never felt the need or even the itch for a knife. It is more of a liability than an asset. Well, the only place I might have felt an itch is coming upon a tangle of slings at some rappel anchor that I want to remove. In this case patience will do the job and a knife would just save a few seconds rather than be a necessity.

I am holding back on one story about a fellow I once climbed with who thought a knife was an essential. I'll just say that I had deep concerns that ended up being entirely justified.

I am afraid I am going to boycott this model.
Yea "Touching the Void"

Back when I was on the Mountain Team as an EMT they had us watch that movie for training one day.



We were still expected to carry a very small knife like a Leatherman mutitool but I did see that amongst regular climbers knives are kinda of a faux pas.


This is me back in 2015
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A lifetime ago :D

Only thing I climb these days is the pile of worn ceramic belts to get to my grinder :D

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby sal » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:31 pm

Hi Guy,

It is the sharing of the information that I am for. It is the tone that I am trying to simmer. Obviously some climbers think that carrying a knife is a good thing and some don't. With a civil discussion, the information can be shared and each can make up his or her own mind as to the best choice.

It is still a worthwhile discussion as the information is important for safety.

sal

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Wartstein » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:01 pm

One rather common situation where climbers really need a knife and could get stuck (and potentially die) WITHOUT one in a wall is when the rope gets caught in cracks or the like while one pulls it down when multi pitch rapelling.

For non climbers: When rapelling down a high wall, you thread the knife through an anchor point, so you have two equally long rope lines on which you rapell.
When you get to the next lower anchor point, you have to pull down the rope from above you, thread it through the new anchor point, rapell again and repeat that process till you get to the ground.

Now when pulling the rope down to you, it happens quite often that it gets hung up on rocks or cracks high above you. Sometimes so severe, that you can't pull the rope down any more at all, and if you can't climb up, you are literally stuck in the middle of a wall.

With a KNIFE though, you can cut the rope off, so you still have a, though shorter, rope to continue to rapell down.

I know several people who where in that situation and had to be rescued after a night out in the wall cause they brought no knife.
Last edited by Wartstein on Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby VooDooChild » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:14 pm

Sometimes I ignore spydercos "marketing descriptions" and just focus on what the knife will be good at. This one is cutting ropes. You can make whatever arguments about climbing you want. I think people who might really like this will be people on boats/sailing, or ranchers/farmers, pretty much anyone who might need to often cut ropes. Its sort of like that folding chef knife I have that everyone says really isnt good at being a chef knife. Turns out its just a good edc and thats how I use it.

Also Im sure plenty of recreational climbing is done without a knife, but I will bet most extended mountaineering is done with one.

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby TomAiello » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:48 pm

Tucson Tom wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:44 am
In all my years climbing I have never felt the need or even the itch for a knife. It is more of a liability than an asset. Well, the only place I might have felt an itch is coming upon a tangle of slings at some rappel anchor that I want to remove. In this case patience will do the job and a knife would just save a few seconds rather than be a necessity.
Petzl makes a dedicated climbing knife called the Spatha (https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Packs ... ies/SPATHA).

I was a climbing guide in college, and I had to use a Swiss army knife to cut the hair of one of the students on a trip. She had long hair, and had somehow managed to catch it in the belay device (while catching a fall). I pretty much always climbed with a knife after that.

I don't know about cutting ropes, but I've definitely had to cut parachute lines during a variety of emergency situations before. I used a Tasman salt to cut an entire line set off a guy's legs after a (39F) water landing. I've also cut lines to disentangle an injured jumper from their own canopy, and (reluctantly) to get gear off a cactus. I've also had to use my pocket knife to cut vegetation while improvising a splint.

I don't expect to ever cut a climbing rope with a knife, but that doesn't mean that I'd go climbing without one. I certainly haven't made a jump without a knife in the past 15 years (every one of my personal rigs has a hook knife, and I religiously carry a pocket knife, which I've had multiple occasions to use).


FWIW, my go-to jumping emergency knife (we stock them in our instructor emergency kits) is a Tasman Salt. Having to go through a line set in near freezing water made me really happy to have a serrated hawkbill.
Last edited by TomAiello on Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby TomAiello » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:53 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:05 pm
Sal, may I ask: Will the Rock Jumper come out in BLACK FRN at first like all Seki FRN knives?

I like black FRN, but for a dedicated outdoors / rock climbing knife I'd think a brighter color would be the better choice...?!
A dedicated outdoor knife should definitely be a bright color. I used to like bright yellow, but one time I dropped a Salt in the snow, and realized that orange would have been much better.

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby TomAiello » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:58 pm

FWIW, Benchmade makes a piece of gear (it's more a hook knife than a pocket knife) that's intended for a similar market segment: https://www.benchmade.com/7-hook.html

I have one of these sitting on the shelf behind my desk (one of my friends misallocated it from the government inventory and gave it to me), but I've never brought it with me on a jump. I can't see how it would be any more useful than a standard hook knife.

This is my preferred model of hook knife because it's ambidextrous: https://www.amazon.com/EEZYCUT-Trilobit ... B00R8PO3CQ).
Last edited by TomAiello on Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby kennethsime » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:01 pm

Tucson Tom wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:44 am
RustyIron wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:23 pm
Oh, my.

Sal, we can hang out, have drinks, take the girls out to dinner, but let's just agree to never climb together. Simon Yates cut a rope once. Justified or not, the dude nearly killed his friend and became a pariah. The emotional scars were deep and long lasting. Today, we may joke about climbing with a "rope knife," but really, making such a comment is dark and inappropriate in polite company.

I'm curious to see the new knife, but the notion of a rope-cutting knife for climbers does not create cheery imagery in my mind. Maybe the Spyderco Marketing Team can come up with uses for the new knife that do not have such gruesome implications.

Since hardly anyone will know what I'm talking about, just pick up a copy of Touching the Void by Joe Simpson. You don't have to be a climber to appreciate it. Outdoors types who find themselves in grueling or hazardous situations from time to time will be able to relate. And the book isn't too long, so you can finish it in a couple days.
I was going to hold my peace, but reading your comments indicate to me that I am not the only person with these thoughts.

I am a climber, and it is a general rule that I won't even climb with someone who carries a knife.

Leave that thing at home. At all costs keep your knife away from my ropes and gear.

In all my years climbing I have never felt the need or even the itch for a knife. It is more of a liability than an asset. Well, the only place I might have felt an itch is coming upon a tangle of slings at some rappel anchor that I want to remove. In this case patience will do the job and a knife would just save a few seconds rather than be a necessity.

I am holding back on one story about a fellow I once climbed with who thought a knife was an essential. I'll just say that I had deep concerns that ended up being entirely justified.

I am afraid I am going to boycott this model.
Have to pull a firm disagree here, but I may be of a different generation. When someone says climbing knife, I think of cutting tat off of anchors more than anything; I definitely don't think of Yates.

I think it's neat that Spyderco would think of designing a knife for a climber; my Trango Piranha leaves much to be desired.
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby RustyIron » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:00 pm

sal wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:53 am
Interesting perspective. Thanx for the information. I would be curious if all climbers thought that a knife was a problem when climbing? It was my understanding that a knife was a tool to be used to separate matter when it was the only solution or the best solution.
Hey, Sal.
When people ask me to talk about climbing, it's probably like asking you about knife steel. I can go on ad nauseam until people start yawning, rolling their eyes, and running for the door. But make no mistake, there are MANY who are far better than me. Climbers are elite brotherhood (or sisterhood) that only we understand, and no one else "get's it" until they're on the sharp end of the rope, shaking with fear, physically spent, and the only two options are success or death. EVERY climber depends on his partner to protect his life. When you're climbing, your partner literally has your life in one hand. If he falters, you die. Likewise, when he's climbing, his life is in your hand. Sweat in your eyes, biting flies, searing sun, falling rocks... they don't matter. Your job is to protect your partner and you can't allow yourself to be distracted for a moment. It's this degree of commitment and dedication that makes the idea of a rope-cutting knife abhorrent, as if the notion of purposely killing your partner to save your own life is not reason enough.

With that said, a knife is a multi-purpose tool. As was mentioned earlier, a climber might need a knife to perform the public service of cutting away manky slings. Or maybe a knife could come in handy to fashion a shirt into a bandage. Or it could be used for cutting off a flapper (torn fingertip). But for any of these utilitarian tasks, any general-purpose knife could suffice. And if you're on a big climb, the need for more diverse gear is greater.

Anyway, I suspect I've said enough and people's eyes are glazing over as they run for the door.

Enjoy the evening!
Rob
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby sal » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 pm

We'll make the first run in black. Then we'll go from there. Need to prove out the design and get feedback.

Hi Rob, I'm sorry there is so much controversy on the model. I guess we'll see how it does in the marketplace. There are many uses for a knife of this design. My wife Gail is a climber and she carried a knife always. Used it to mostly clear her hand holds, ( spyders & snakes). Also for food prep.

sal

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Eee » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:45 pm

I think we have to be careful of assuming our experiences of climbing are the same. Climbing is a broad church. I know virtually nothing of big wall aid climbing, but know enough to realise it is very different in terms of equipment and techniques from the trad climbing with half ropes which I have done. Both are completely different to the alpine style Joe Simpson would have been using and suggesting that Touching the void is representative of climbing is rather like saying the film Alive is representative of flying in a plane.

I suspect the one thing the majority of climbers have in common is a slight obsession with safely managing the risks of their sport to the best of their ability. I think we get quite passionate about it. Thankfully there’s often a lot of redundancy built into the systems and techniques. I don’t think a single person here is advocating cutting ropes to allow their partner to fall to their death, rather the many ways we might need to safely remove people or gear from the system, or the myriad of cutting tasks which always exist in the outdoors.

I’ll continue to carry a knife while climbing and walking outdoors and it might well end up being the Rock Jumper.
Last edited by Eee on Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Eee » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:48 pm

Sal, one quick question about the Rock jumper. One handed closing seems important to the design. My muscle memory for backlocks is based around catching the blade on the kick with my finger, will that still be possible with the design you are working up?

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Wartstein » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:55 am

Eee wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:48 pm
Sal, one quick question about the Rock jumper. One handed closing seems important to the design. My muscle memory for backlocks is based around catching the blade on the kick with my finger, will that still be possible with the design you are working up?
It works with the Centofante, which has almost no visible kick!
But then, there are several better methods to close a backlock, one just has to get used to them a bit. I may post some short vids once more I did some time ago, showing three of the methods (each one time slow, two times regular speed) - one shows the "comp. lock like" finger-never-in-the-blade-path-way to do it (imho not necessary, both on back and comp.lock)

https://streamable.com/j7fjd

https://streamable.com/bhhzs

https://streamable.com/myzlt
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Wartstein » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:09 am

sal wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:07 pm
We'll make the first run in black. Then we'll go from there. Need to prove out the design and get feedback.

Hi Rob, I'm sorry there is so much controversy on the model. I guess we'll see how it does in the marketplace. There are many uses for a knife of this design. My wife Gail is a climber and she carried a knife always. Used it to mostly clear her hand holds, ( spyders & snakes). Also for food prep.

sal

Sal,

My fellow climbers Rob (and Tom) has (have) all my respect and I don´t want to offend them by any means!

But I really don´t think that there will be actually "much controversy" on the model in the climbing community (at least not in the European one) -
Imho (and also in the opinions of every climber I know) every responsible climber should or even has to carry an easily accesible knife while climbing.
As described in my precvious posts, this is not only usefull, but can be life saving!! So I think it´s great that Spyderco makes a dedicated model for that!

Some European climbing brands even offer dedicated climbing knives already: Here is one by Petzl and one by Edelrid (pics below):
As you can see, they even feature more or less a Spyderco opening hole, and, cool thing, a pivot that is "hollow" in the middle so you can clip it on a carabiner there (though the action is terrible and one handed opening awkward with this knives I have to say)

Image

Image
Last edited by Wartstein on Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Wartstein » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:25 am

RustyIron wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:00 pm
sal wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:53 am
Hey, Sal.
When people ask me to talk about climbing, it's probably like asking you about knife steel.....
Rob, fellow climber, I like your post a lot and it really shows what climbing is about!

But, let me be honest: Reading your words I get even less WHY you and your partners should not carry knives while climbing! I mean, I assume you are NOT for strict knife laws, since you trust normal people not to do crazy bad things when carrying a knife.
Now with your CLIMBING PARTNER, to whome you literally trust your life to anyway, this should be different??!! You DON`T trust him or her with a knife?? And for THAT reason both of you don´t bring one, despite there are a lot emergency situations where a knife could help to save his/ her or your life?

Perhaps you´d like to read two of my posts in this thread (see links below), these are just SOME of the situations where a knife can be important and it would be irresponsible towards your partner not to have one!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85940&start=40#p1398848
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85940&start=20#p1398811

Or let´s say you´re climbing with (two of course) half ropes, your partner falls, is held securely by one of the the ropes but dangerously tangled up in the second one (might be even strangled), and you have to cut him loose?

/ Since we´re sharing old pics here from the natural habitat of the Rock Jumper ;):

Here are two very old pics showing me climbing (1.) late 90ies (climber above) / 2.) early 2000 es) :)
(both shot with a conventional camera)

Image
Image
Last edited by Wartstein on Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Evil D » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:02 am

All I'm saying is if you climber guys ruin this knife and it doesn't come out I'll find where you live and poop on your door step.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby Wartstein » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:30 am

Evil D wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:02 am
All I'm saying is if you climber guys ruin this knife and it doesn't come out I'll find where you live and poop on your door step.

Man, David, I am doing everything already here to make clear that every responsible climber should (and in my (Euro-) community DOES) carry a knife while climbing! :)

It's great when Spyderco adds a dedicated quality product to the existing options, NO WAY this "will not come out" I hope.

Also it's not always only about you and your climbing partner. You might come across another party that is in an emergency in the middle of a wall and assist in helping / rescuing them. Won't go into detail, but a knife can be crucial here (and every mountain rescue person (another "market" for the Rock Jumper) WILL deifinitely carry one).
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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby dan31 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:47 am

I can second the rescue team always carrying a sharp knife. It’s a life saving tool in many scenarios in the mountains and crevasses.

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Re: Rock Jumper Thread

Postby JuPaul » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:43 am

While I don't climb anymore, I used to climb a lot, and I carried a multitool with a serrated blade. Most of my climbing buddies carried something similar, or a rescue-type blade. Had I known about spyderco at the time, I propably would've carried a Rescue or other SE backlock plus a small multitool. I never had to use my blade in an emergency (thankfully), but I can envision many emergency scenarios in which a knife would've be crucial to SAVE myself or someone else. Never to drop someone - yikes!
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