My struggle with the Native

[Doc Dan]

I both like and dislike the Native. I love the lock and materials. I love the looks. I think this is one of the best looking knives made by anybody.

However....





As can be seen, the Cat is a much smaller knife. On the other hand the Cat has, for all intents and purposes, the same cutting edge length. When you hold the knives, this is the part that sticks out and is used.


Also, the choil is such that if holding the knife to get more reach, will snag on what’s being cut. If the choil were like that on the Military, that would solve the problem, but how to do that I don’t know.

[The Meat man]

The Native leaves me a little uninspired too. I agree, it's a fine design and a great working knife, but it's not special to me the way some other designs are. I own the Maxamet Native and like it - it's in my pocket right now as a matter of fact - but I carry it primarily for the steel.

[VooDooChild]

It took me a while to come around on the native. Then I really liked it. One day it just clicked.

I also like the choils on the native family because I feel they lock your finger in better than the choils on other designs.

[The Meat man]

It took me a while to come around on the native. Then I really liked it. One day it just clicked.

I also like the choils on the native family because I feel they lock your finger in better than the choils on other designs.

For me choils are kind of hit or miss. Some designs I like them, others not. I do tend to prefer more neutral designs that don't "force" a specific grip. Models like the Police 4 strike a nice balance, in my opinion.

[Wartstein]

I both like and dislike the Native. I love the lock and materials. I love the looks. I think this is one of the best looking knives made by anybody.

However....

......

As can be seen, the Cat is a much smaller knife. On the other hand the Cat has, for all intents and purposes, the same cutting edge length. When you hold the knives, this is the part that sticks out and is used.

...

Doc, that´s exactly why I personally really did not have any more use for my Native (sold it) as soon as I got a Chaparral FRN.

Same thing here:

- Both have the same actual cutting edge
- But the Native in a much larger (longer, thicker) closed package
- Both have to be held choked up at least if one has bigger hands, but while the overall available handle length of the Native COULD easily provide a good four finger grip (if it had no choil, which also would give you more edge), the Chaps overall handle length would be too short anyway, so HERE the choil is mandatory and a great design feature
- Add the slicier, thinner blade of the Chap (the Natives blade is 60% thicker!)
- And add the in actual use better ergos of the Chap (feels a bit more stable in hand when really USED)

That´s what makes me grab Spydies like the Chap over the Native any day of the week..

/ Still I wonder: Does your example, the Cat, really have the same cutting edge length as the Native? I thought it was at least 10% less...?!

[bearfacedkiller]

The Native fills my hand better. I consider the Native to be a sturdy knife capable of some serious use. I consider the Chap a compact EDC knife or gents folder. Don’t have a Cat.

[Wartstein]

The Native fills my hand better. I consider the Native to be a sturdy knife capable of some serious use. I consider the Chap a compact EDC knife or gents folder. Don’t have a Cat.

First an foremost let me be clear: I like the Native, I really enjoyed my LW when I had it, it´s just that in that exact handle size range the Delica is an even better choice for me personally, and in that edge length size the Chap (and having "only" a short Chap edge in a Delica sized handle is exactly one of the not-so-good-ascpects of the Native for me).

But Darby, concerning your post:

That´s exactly what I thought before I actually owned and used a Chap.
I was not prepared at all to see the Chap as a really comortable in hand, capable for real "serious use" folder.
But reality taught me better.

In use my Chap as "hard" as any other of my folders, in fact I really like it as almost an independent, little "bushcraft and wood working tool" going a along with a bigger (fixed blade) knife.
So may I ask (out of interest, not to critizise you by any means!): Have you ever really TRIED what a Chap can take? For example whittle some harder wood, and turning and twisting the blade? I assure you, the Chap can do this like a Champ, it´s only the tip that most likely is a bit more fragile than on a Native.

Ergos: Again, when just holding Native and Chap, the former feels more ergonomic and certainly more handfilling (it IS more handfilling of course).
But again: Have you ever compared the two in real use? This was the second surprise for me: When really using them harder (again, lets say whittling harder wood), and "squeezing" the handle a bit, just for my particular hand "geometry" the Chap feels more comfortable and most notably more stable. The Native tends to "roll" a bit in the hand compared to the Chap, and the index finger is somehow less well supported in the choil.

Should you own both I´d be really interested how this is for you. Again, when really using the knives in a "harder" task like whittling hard wood, that puts some "rotational" forces on the handle in your hand.
Maybe you´d like to try and report back?! :)

[bearfacedkiller]

I have used the Chap plenty. I have owned and carried one for years. I also carve seasoned hardwoods with my knives. The handle on the Chap is too small and too thin for me when using it very hard. On the other hand, I love the ergos on the Native when carving.

You talk about measurements a lot. I don’t usually see eye to eye with folks on here when they spend too much time analyzing the numbers.

[Wartstein]

I have used the Chap plenty. I have owned and carried one for years. I also carve seasoned hardwoods with my knives. The handle on the Chap is too small and too thin for me when using it very hard. On the other hand, I love the ergos on the Native when carving.

You talk about measurements a lot. I don’t usually see eye to eye with folks on here when they spend too much time analyzing the numbers.

Thanks for your reply! I really just wanted your impressions (which you gave now), since I know how a knife feels in hand of course varies from person to person and hand to hand.

As said, I was really surprised and not expecting at all that for me personally the Chap feels more "stable" (less likely to roll, more locked in) than the Native when using the knives "harder" (especially when carving). And the Chap actually has a a good amount of grip area, when counting the choil in.

/
Sorry, but what do you mean by the sentence I highlitghted? I don´t fully comprehend it (due to not being an English Native speaker).
I take it as "I generally don´t agree with folks here when they spend too much time analyzing numbers" - correct?!
If so, I would not fully get that. I don´t "analyze numbers", but just state the plain fact, that the Native has a rather short cutting edge compared to its closed lenght (and that echoes exactly the point the OP - Doc Dan - is making): A lot shorter than the Delica, which has the same closed size as the Chap, and as short as the Chap, which offers a lot more compact overall package for that.

For some people cutting edge lenght is a plus (and it´s hard to argue against that a longer edge makes a knife more versatile) and I happen to be one of those people. :)

[Evil D]

I prefer the lack of thumb ramp and more steel choices with the Native, but otherwise I would choose a Chap if they were offered in all the same steels.

[bearfacedkiller]

I have used the Chap plenty. I have owned and carried one for years. I also carve seasoned hardwoods with my knives. The handle on the Chap is too small and too thin for me when using it very hard. On the other hand, I love the ergos on the Native when carving.

You talk about measurements a lot. I don’t usually see eye to eye with folks on here when they spend too much time analyzing the numbers.

Thanks for your reply! I really just wanted your impressions (which you gave now), since I know how a knife feels in hand of course varies from person to person and hand to hand.

As said, I was really surprised and not expecting at all that for me personally the Chap feels more "stable" (less likely to roll, more locked in) than the Native when using the knives "harder" (especially when carving). And the Chap actually has a a good amount of grip area, when counting the choil in.

/
Sorry, but what do you mean by the sentence I highlitghted? I don´t fully comprehend it (due to not being an English Native speaker).
I take it as "I generally don´t agree with folks here when they spend too much time analyzing numbers" - correct?!
If so, I would not fully get that. I don´t "analyze numbers", but just state the plain fact, that the Native has a rather short cutting edge compared to its closed lenght (and that echoes exactly the point the OP - Doc Dan - is making): A lot shorter than the Delica, which has the same closed size as the Chap, and as short as the Chap, which offers a lot more compact overall package for that.

For some people cutting edge lenght is a plus (and it´s hard to argue against that a longer edge makes a knife more versatile) and I happen to be one of those people. :)

For me it is mostly how thin the Chap is that makes it less comfortable in harder use.

Your English is great and you interpreted me correctly. I envy people who are bilingual. We use lots of idioms and euphemisms so English can be a little cryptic at times.

I just don't put too much emphasis on blade to handle ratios or blade to edge ratios. Seems like the focus should be on what works. I want a handle that fits my hand and a blade that is the right size for what I am doing.

According to the numbers the Native has bad ratios but in use I find it confidence inspiring. In use I find that larger handle and smaller blade creates a knife with a lot of control. I like that.

[zuludelta]

I've used both the Cat (and the Chaparral) and the Native extensively, and while I like how both knives handle very much, I just slightly prefer the Native. A big part of that is my preference for a sturdy mid-backlock over a liner lock, but I also like how relatively oversized the Native's handle is—not just in length but also in width and thickness—it helps me index the blade better, especially when wearing work gloves. I don't know if this makes sense as an analogy, but it's sort of like the difference between using a mouse on a full-sized mousepad to play, say, "Call of Duty", and using a small laptop's trackpad to play the same game: the scaled up interface of the former allows more precise adjustments. In general, I guess I just like the overall proportions of the Native (if one counts the choil as part of the handle), it reminds me of a traditional wood carving knife (big handle, relatively short blade).

The choil on the Native can & does snag, but I almost always hold it with a choked up grip, so it's a virtual non-issue for me. All that said, I recognize that knife ergos are a very personal & individualized thing for knife AFIs, so I'm not at all surprised to see that for as many people like how the Native handles, just as many seem to not like it.

[Jazz]

Not sure what's to compare even. The Native and Chap are entirely different knives. One's thin and light use, and the other's heavier use and sturdier.

Anyway, I like the Native enough to own a few. Sometimes, the fact I can't use it behind the choil annoys me, though. Still, it works great, looks great, slices great, folds up nice and short, and can't be compared with any other knife.

[Wartstein]

Not sure what's to compare even. The Native and Chap are entirely different knives. One's thin and light use, and the other's heavier use and sturdier.

Anyway, I like the Native enough to own a few. Sometimes, the fact I can't use it behind the choil annoys me, though. Still, it works great, looks great, slices great, folds up nice and short, and can't be compared with any other knife.

Jazz, I normally really like you posts and opinions and have great respect for your obviously wide and practical experience concerning Spydies (and I mean it!)

But, with all respect and no offense meant, your above post puzzles me a bit.

How do you come to the definite assertion that the Chap and Native are "eniterely different knives", the former being "light use", the latter "heavier use?

Again, I assumed that too, before having actually tried a Chap. But its 2mm thick (a thickness that many traditional knives that were and are used "hard" also have) short blade is sturdy enough for any folder task that the Native could do, except maybe stabbing the knife deep into wood and prying /deliberatley trying to snap the tip (still, I think a for example PM2 tip (seen as a sturdy knife by many) would snap earlier than the Chaps).

Plus, many real cutting tasks it does even better than the Native, just cause the blade is a lot thinner and, well, slicier.

And sure, in a way the Native "folds up nice and short", but certainly not relatively to the edge it gives and one can actually work with.
That may not matter to most people, but still, for me personally when I can get in the Chap a much smaller package, with the same actual egde, that can take anything I´d do with the Native, plus has a blade stock that imho is more suited to a small knife and a handle that feels more stable in hand, I´ll take that

And to be clear: The Chap is built very solid and "hard use" with its full steel liners (the Native has none anymore) and perfectly executed backlock (which the Native has too).

[Doc Dan]

I both like and dislike the Native. I love the lock and materials. I love the looks. I think this is one of the best looking knives made by anybody.

However....

......

As can be seen, the Cat is a much smaller knife. On the other hand the Cat has, for all intents and purposes, the same cutting edge length. When you hold the knives, this is the part that sticks out and is used.

...

Doc, that´s exactly why I personally really did not have any more use for my Native (sold it) as soon as I got a Chaparral FRN.

Same thing here:

- Both have the same actual cutting edge
- But the Native in a much larger (longer, thicker) closed package
- Both have to be held choked up at least if one has bigger hands, but while the overall available handle length of the Native COULD easily provide a good four finger grip (if it had no choil, which also would give you more edge), the Chaps overall handle length would be too short anyway, so HERE the choil is mandatory and a great design feature
- Add the slicier, thinner blade of the Chap (the Natives blade is 60% thicker!)
- And add the in actual use better ergos of the Chap (feels a bit more stable in hand when really USED)

That´s what makes me grab Spydies like the Chap over the Native any day of the week..

/ Still I wonder: Does your example, the Cat, really have the same cutting edge length as the Native? I thought it was at least 10% less...?!

Gernot, yes, the cutting edge is very close. The picture is accurate. My older Cat even has jimping.

I don’t hate the Native. I like the Delica far better. I think the Native would be a stellar knife if the choil were lost, grip lengthened as a result, an the cutting edge lengthened.

[VooDooChild]

The cat is a cheap sports car, the chaparral is a nice sports car, and the native is one **** of a truck.

I can take all 3 to the grocery store, but there is only one Im taking to the construction site.

[Wartstein]

I both like and dislike the Native. I love the lock and materials. I love the looks. I think this is one of the best looking knives made by anybody.

However....

......

As can be seen, the Cat is a much smaller knife. On the other hand the Cat has, for all intents and purposes, the same cutting edge length. When you hold the knives, this is the part that sticks out and is used.

...

Doc, that´s exactly why I personally really did not have any more use for my Native (sold it) as soon as I got a Chaparral FRN.

Same thing here:

- Both have the same actual cutting edge
- But the Native in a much larger (longer, thicker) closed package
- Both have to be held choked up at least if one has bigger hands, but while the overall available handle length of the Native COULD easily provide a good four finger grip (if it had no choil, which also would give you more edge), the Chaps overall handle length would be too short anyway, so HERE the choil is mandatory and a great design feature
- Add the slicier, thinner blade of the Chap (the Natives blade is 60% thicker!)
- And add the in actual use better ergos of the Chap (feels a bit more stable in hand when really USED)

That´s what makes me grab Spydies like the Chap over the Native any day of the week..

/ Still I wonder: Does your example, the Cat, really have the same cutting edge length as the Native? I thought it was at least 10% less...?!

Gernot, yes, the cutting edge is very close. The picture is accurate. My older Cat even has jimping.

I don’t hate the Native. I like the Delica far better. I think the Native would be a stellar knife if the choil were lost, grip lengthened as a result, an the cutting edge lengthened.

Dan, thanks for your reply! The highlighted sentence says exactly what I think too! :)

Important to me, and said earlier anyway: I don´t hate the Native too, I even really like it (and enjoyed the one I had a lot)! It´s just that for that size in the pocket the Delica is even better for me, and for that lenght of edge the Chap is.

If neither Delica nor Chap existed, I´d probably still have a Native for my "small knife needs"

The choil in the Native is what bothers me the most also. You have that generous, overall handle lenght (FRN /G10 part) that would easily accomodate even a large hand and leave a lot of edge to work with if it had no choil in the handle part.
But the choil "ruins" that in that particular size range of folders: Shortens the available grip area on the actual handle, so larger hands HAVE to use the choil, PLUS takes away cutting edge that would really be needed to make the Native even more versatile.

Just for me personally a choil is for really small knives (Chap and smaller) or for a bit larger ones (PM2/Stretch and larger), not for the "Native-category". Just personal preference of course.

[Wartstein]

The cat is a cheap sports car, the chaparral is a nice sports car, and the native is one **** of a truck.

I can take all 3 to the grocery store, but there is only one Im taking to the construction site.

Ever used a Chap on the construction site? If not, try. I bet you´ll be surprised...

(To be clear: I am not a construction worker, but as a matter of fact helped a friend with construction work. Deliberately carried the Chap to test it, and it did just great).

I don´t refer to you personally, VooDooChild, so no offense meant, but just as a general statement:
Sometimes I have a feeling that even experienced knife users /knife people just believe and state things without actually really having tested /prooven those themselves. I even did a related thread some time ago (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84681)
Believing, that 2mm stock, short blades would be too weak for harder tasks is one of this "knife myths" that often get repeated and in my experience (in the truest sense of the word) are not true.
If there is a blade part one has to worry about, it´s the tip. And thin blade does not mean necessarely (too) fragile tip (blade shape, tapering, grind and steel play of course an important role concerning how fragile or not a tip really is)

[Wartstein]

For me it is mostly how thin the Chap is that makes it less comfortable in harder use.

Your English is great and you interpreted me correctly. I envy people who are bilingual. We use lots of idioms and euphemisms so English can be a little cryptic at times.

I just don't put too much emphasis on blade to handle ratios or blade to edge ratios. Seems like the focus should be on what works. I want a handle that fits my hand and a blade that is the right size for what I am doing.

According to the numbers the Native has bad ratios but in use I find it confidence inspiring. In use I find that larger handle and smaller blade creates a knife with a lot of control. I like that.

Thanks for your kind words! Still, I know there´s a lot to learn for me concerning the English language, especially when I actually have to talk (and not "only" write...) :rolleyes:

/ Valid points on the Native!
It seems that my particular hands fit better on a Chap, and yours on a Native

And for "good egde to handle ratio": You´re right, I am certainly often times putting a bit TOO much emphasis on that, it´s a bit of a personal "pet peeve" of mine... especially in the Native size range for me each mm more counts and makes the knife more usefull and versatile (on the other hand, in larger sizes, I really don´t care. For example I really don´t find the Millie more usefull than the Endura, just cause the Millie offers a bit more edge, but both are perfect for me in that regard).

[Coffeetron]

The only things I liked about mine was the well made lock and good looking design.

The normal grip was cramped, using the choil for a full grip was uncomfortable and locked my wrist in a certain position. Cutting bigger objects was uncomfortable because I had to be careful not to catch with the choil on the material.