Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

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Sumdumguy
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Sumdumguy » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:42 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:04 pm
Sumdumguy wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:51 pm
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:13 am
VooDooChild wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:04 am
Get a siren.
This
Not even close to being in the same category. The Caribbean is a heavy duty workhorse that can withstand extreme abuse, while the Siren is a folding version of a fixed blade designed specifically for fishing.
(plus it has a funky, large guard/choil thingy)

The Caribbean, while not everyone's cup of tea, is a different animal and will certainly "outperform" the Siren.

Not bashing the Siren, I'll probably buy one. But it's like comparing a Ford Ranger, to an F-250. They are on different playing fields.

....
Not saying you´re wrong (how could I, don´t have either a Caribbean or - of course - a Siren), but just out of interest: How do you come to the conclusion "Siren is not even close" when it comes to abuse (in real knife use)?

- Both feature the same steel.
- Certainly the Caribbean has a bit thicker blade stock than the Siren (3.6mm vs 3.2 mm) - imho not a relevant difference in real use (never, ever came even close to break an ffg Endura blade (3.00 mm)
- Certainly the Caribbean tip will be more robust,but just slightly
- On the other hand theoretically the Siren backlock will be a bit stronger than the Caribbean comp.lock - again, not relevant at all in real use, both more than strong enough
- Caribbean has liners, Siren not. Again, certainly the Caribbean will finally be stronger if the stability handles are pushed to the extrem, but in practical, even hardest use it won´t make a real difference

Tbh, I don´t think you´ll find many realistic tasks where the Siren will fail, but the Caribbean will not.
And I don´t think they are literally "on different playing fields"

But again, that´s just my assumptions! Can´t really weigh in, since I don´t have either of this knives.
But as said, I´d be interested in your thought process if you´d like to share.
With pleasure!

With average use, you probably wouldn't notice the difference. They will both function as a folding knife should.

However, when you go beyond the threshold of "average", differences will start to become more apparent. Handle flex would be the first issue I would notice and I don't like that feeling(Renegade was sold for that reason).

After that, I would imagine the pivot to be the next spot to suffer possible distortion(you'd blow out the pivot long before the lock would explode).

Let's go for broke and compare the tensile strength of the two materials as liners. G10 has an ultimate tensile strength of around 300MPa, whereas LC200N's is 2150MPa. That means LC200N takes ~717% more force to reach it's breaking point than G10.

Now let's compare that with the weight savings. The Caribbean weighs 4.2oz in all it's beefy, steel lined glory. The Siren, with it's lack of liners weighs 3.6oz. That means the Caribbean is ~17% heavier than the Siren, with a pivot strength that is 717% greater. Is the weight savings worth it? Not to me.
Granted I'm probably leaving out several variables such as material thickness and whatnot, but it still demonstrates how great of a difference there can be between two seemingly equal knives.

When it comes down to it, the knife I carry in my pocket, is likely the only knife I'm going to have at hand in an emergency situation. That is where the limits of the knife might be tested. I want the stronger one.

It's better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

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Wartstein
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Wartstein » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:18 pm

Sumdumguy wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:42 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:04 pm
Sumdumguy wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:51 pm
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:13 am
Not saying you´re wrong (how could I, don´t have either a Caribbean or - of course - a Siren), but just out of interest: How do you come to the conclusion "Siren is not even close" when it comes to abuse (in real knife use)?

- Both feature the same steel.
- Certainly the Caribbean has a bit thicker blade stock than the Siren (3.6mm vs 3.2 mm) - imho not a relevant difference in real use (never, ever came even close to break an ffg Endura blade (3.00 mm)
- Certainly the Caribbean tip will be more robust,but just slightly
- On the other hand theoretically the Siren backlock will be a bit stronger than the Caribbean comp.lock - again, not relevant at all in real use, both more than strong enough
- Caribbean has liners, Siren not. Again, certainly the Caribbean will finally be stronger if the stability handles are pushed to the extrem, but in practical, even hardest use it won´t make a real difference

Tbh, I don´t think you´ll find many realistic tasks where the Siren will fail, but the Caribbean will not.
And I don´t think they are literally "on different playing fields"

But again, that´s just my assumptions! Can´t really weigh in, since I don´t have either of this knives.
But as said, I´d be interested in your thought process if you´d like to share.
With pleasure!

With average use, you probably wouldn't notice the difference. They will both function as a folding knife should.

However, when you go beyond the threshold of "average", differences will start to become more apparent. Handle flex would be the first issue I would notice and I don't like that feeling(Renegade was sold for that reason).

After that, I would imagine the pivot to be the next spot to suffer possible distortion(you'd blow out the pivot long before the lock would explode).

Let's go for broke and compare the tensile strength of the two materials as liners. G10 has an ultimate tensile strength of around 300MPa, whereas LC200N's is 2150MPa. That means LC200N takes ~717% more force to reach it's breaking point than G10.

Now let's compare that with the weight savings. The Caribbean weighs 4.2oz in all it's beefy, steel lined glory. The Siren, with it's lack of liners weighs 3.6oz. That means the Caribbean is ~17% heavier than the Siren, with a pivot strength that is 717% greater. Is the weight savings worth it? Not to me.
Granted I'm probably leaving out several variables such as material thickness and whatnot, but it still demonstrates how great of a difference there can be between two seemingly equal knives.

When it comes down to it, the knife I carry in my pocket, is likely the only knife I'm going to have at hand in an emergency situation. That is where the limits of the knife might be tested. I want the stronger one.

It's better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Thanks for your detailled reply!
Good points, you´re certainly right that the Caribbean will be stronger in a extreme / emergency situation. That would probably come into play if you for example had to pry or something like that with your folder in - again - a true emergency.

I normally don´t think of such situations when choosing an EDC folder, but on the other hand don´t say at all that it is not smart if someone does!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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VooDooChild
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:40 pm

When I said "get a siren", I was really just making a joke.

For the record some people just absolutely love some models and can never be convinced that they arent perfect. The caribbean is one of these. I think it has several flaws, but I wasnt going to go into someone elses thread and bring it up.

Also Sumdumguys on paper justification of the caribbean being stronger doesnt matter. Feel free to pry with both of them, I garuntee you the blade will break before the handle on either one does. I would also bet neither would do as well as a fixed blade, and that wouldnt do as well as a crow bar. Point is just get what you like.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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Wartstein
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Wartstein » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:00 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:40 pm
When I said "get a siren", I was really just making a joke.

For the record some people just absolutely love some models and can never be convinced that they arent perfect. The caribbean is one of these. I think it has several flaws, but I wasnt going to go into someone elses thread and bring it up.

Also Sumdumguys on paper justification of the caribbean being stronger doesnt matter. Feel free to pry with both of them, I garuntee you the blade will break before the handle on either one does. I would also bet neither would do as well as a fixed blade, and that wouldnt do as well as a crow bar. Point is just get what you like.

I am with you on that in MY personal (and any even remote sensibel) even hard use both would be more than strong enough and I would get what I like if I had to choose (and it would actually be the Siren for its backlock).

But just technically I am not sure if when prying with the Siren really the BLADE would actually be the first part to break, or Sumdumguy is right and rather the pivot would fail, the blade would rip out of the handle or whatever.

Again, nothing that matters to me whatsoever or I´d ever consider in "real life use", both knives are certainly more than strong enough for me
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

Sumdumguy
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Sumdumguy » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:04 pm

To be fair, I wasn't talking about prying(don't know how that was deduced :confused:). I was talking about force pushing upwards on the blade causing outward pressure inside the pivot against the liners. That failure point will be reached before you destroy either lock.

The chance of reaching the limit of either material is almost non existent, but the G10 would fail FAR earlier. That is why I stated that the Caribbean isn't comparable, aside from blade steel. Completely different animals.

Mattysc42
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Mattysc42 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:20 pm

I have both and prefer the SE.
BRING ON THE MANIX XL SPRINTS AND EXCLUSIVES! And 10v or K390ify the Golden lineup, please.

Top 5 folders I’ve owned: Serrated Caribbean Leaf, Shaman, Manix XL, ZDP-189/CF Caly 3.5, Native LW.
Top 5 steels I’ve owned: LC200N, K390, CPM S90V, M390, CPM REX45.
Top 3 steels I want more of: M390 class, A11 class (including K390), CPM REX45.

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Cambertree
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Cambertree » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:16 pm

I got my PE leaf blade Caribbean from New Graham too. They’ve been my favoured place to buy Spydies for a while now. Excellent service and fast shipping.

I think I’ll eventually get a SE Caribbean too - probably a sheepsfoot and grind the nose down like Evil D’s one.

The PE version is great though. I thinned mine out and it’s a few trivial passes on the Sharpmaker to restore it to scary sharp. It seems similar to my AEB-L Urban in terms of edgeholding - and ability to take an extremely keen edge.

I ground the ‘nose hump’ down to a smoother profile, dyed the handles, fitted a deep carry MXG clip, and I’m very happy with mine.

If I feel like I want a bit more edgeholding, I just run it with an edge straight off the brown rods.

But it’s always quite tempting to give it a little more refinement for that super sticky sharp feel.

Gratuitous pic:

Image

I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts on yours, when you have had a chance to use it a bit, Marius.

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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby The Meat man » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:09 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:16 pm
I got my PE leaf blade Caribbean from New Graham too. They’ve been my favoured place to buy Spydies for a while now. Excellent service and fast shipping.

I think I’ll eventually get a SE Caribbean too - probably a sheepsfoot and grind the nose down like Evil D’s one.

The PE version is great though. I thinned mine out and it’s a few trivial passes on the Sharpmaker to restore it to scary sharp. It seems similar to my AEB-L Urban in terms of edgeholding - and ability to take an extremely keen edge.

I ground the ‘nose hump’ down to a smoother profile, dyed the handles, fitted a deep carry MXG clip, and I’m very happy with mine.

If I feel like I want a bit more edgeholding, I just run it with an edge straight off the brown rods.

But it’s always quite tempting to give it a little more refinement for that super sticky sharp feel.

Gratuitous pic:



I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts on yours, when you have had a chance to use it a bit, Marius.

Lovely edge!

You describe my thoughts and experiences with LC200N exactly Cambertree. Couldn't agree more.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

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Cambertree
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Cambertree » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:01 am

The Meat man wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:09 pm
Lovely edge!

You describe my thoughts and experiences with LC200N exactly Cambertree. Couldn't agree more.
Thanks Connor! :)

I've actually been using this Caribbean out in the vegetable garden today. It does seem similar to AEB-L in the way that, as long as you are at least a basic level sharpener, and you don't mind doing a bit of touch up sharpening now and then, it can be maintained easily at a very high level of sharpness.

Using a pocket stone like the Doublestuff 2, you can restore a very sharp edge in the space of a couple of minutes, or less. :spyder:

I think if a similar steel were developed which could be run into the 60-62Rc range in a production heat treat, with other desirable qualities relatively intact, it might be close to a pretty well rounded baseline user steel. It's not really a criticism of the steel so much as current tastes, that for those users who've been fielding a selection from Spyderco's tool steels, the thin edges on LC200N seem to roll a little bit too readily.

It may be I'm running mine a bit thin, but repeated sharpenings will thicken up the behind the edge area. I had similar but worse rolling when I experimented with grinding a 8Cr13MoV Tenacious super thin.

Anyway, a very good user steel. But a little more edge strength/hardness at the cost of a bit of toughness would be ok.

I don't really 'need' the high end of stainlessness, so the corrosion resistance really just manifests itself in the way fine edges resist degradation from different kinds of sappy plant material or acidic fruit or vegetable juices, as well as from general atmospheric moisture over time. But it is nice to have. The highly rust resistant interior materials are also a welcome feature for an EDC knife.

An older pic in the garden with the very nice stock Ti clip:

Image
Last edited by Cambertree on Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

The Meat man
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby The Meat man » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:19 am

I reprofiled my Autonomy 2 fairly thin as well. As you say it sharpens up so very easily. I've also been impressed with its edge holding though; honestly I'm not sure I'd be able to tell a difference between it and M390, in everyday use at least.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

JoeBleaux
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby JoeBleaux » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:10 pm

Anyone have news on this? I can't find a plain edge (sheepfoot or leaf) anywhere. Assuming if it was actually under review covid didn't help.

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curlyhairedboy
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby curlyhairedboy » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:36 am

You're not the only one awaiting a new shipment from Taichung. Hopefully there will be one soon!
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Waterway, Tanto PM2, CQI Kapara
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Calendar Watu
Would like to own again: Currently N/A!
Wishlist: Smallfly 2, Pac Salt 2 LC200n, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

prsman
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby prsman » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:28 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:16 pm
I got my PE leaf blade Caribbean from New Graham too. They’ve been my favoured place to buy Spydies for a while now. Excellent service and fast shipping.

I think I’ll eventually get a SE Caribbean too - probably a sheepsfoot and grind the nose down like Evil D’s one.

The PE version is great though. I thinned mine out and it’s a few trivial passes on the Sharpmaker to restore it to scary sharp. It seems similar to my AEB-L Urban in terms of edgeholding - and ability to take an extremely keen edge.

I ground the ‘nose hump’ down to a smoother profile, dyed the handles, fitted a deep carry MXG clip, and I’m very happy with mine.

If I feel like I want a bit more edgeholding, I just run it with an edge straight off the brown rods.

But it’s always quite tempting to give it a little more refinement for that super sticky sharp feel.

Gratuitous pic:

Image

I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts on yours, when you have had a chance to use it a bit, Marius.
My god, that’s an incredible looking knife 🤜

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Cambertree
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby Cambertree » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:58 pm

prsman wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:28 pm
My god, that’s an incredible looking knife 🤜
Thanks! :) It’s really a superb design.

It has quite a few elements which seem to be the latest evolution of Sal’s ‘knife design language’. :cool: :spyder:

JoeBleaux
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Re: Can't find a plain leaf Caribbean anywhere !

Postby JoeBleaux » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:10 am

I recently received a CQI PE Sheeps foot carribean so I thought I would give my thoughts on it. I've owned a couple dragonflys, Pacific salt, 2 Delicas and Para 3 LW so this will be my 5th style of Spyderco. I'm a sailor, and my Pac salt was taken by TSA when I was flying back into the US from Mexico a couple years ago( Forgot it was in my bag), so I've been looking for a good replacement for a while. I didn't buy the carribean as an EDC, I bought it to use as a "working" knife for sailing in salty corrosive environments. I've been carrying the Para 3 LW a lot recent so I'll be comparing the two more than I probably should.
First impressions.
-The action is surprisingly great. Blade flys open, and practically drops shut. This is the first knife I've purchased where I felt the pivot was adjusted properly. This is also my first Taichung knife.
-This is a big knife. I've been carrying it the past few days as an EDC to get a feel for it. I just picked up the Para 3 LW and it felt like a dragon fly...
- I wasn't sure if I'd like the look of scales... I love them. I think they just look great in person.
-The scales are grippy, which is great for my intended purpose. It's an interesting feel, more on that later.
-I love the blade. I'm excited to see what the LC200N can do, but I really like the geometry and blade length of the sheeps foot blade. I've seen some people complain about no sharpening choil, Im happy it's not there and don't see any difficult sharpening(on water stones).
-Plenty sharp from the factory.
-Blade was nicely centered from the factory.
-Ergos... I'm just not sure yet. I feel like there should really be an indent/recess/cut out/something in the scale to lead the thumb to the spydie hole. I mean, I can get to it, but it feels a little akward. In the Para 3 LW it feels natural opening, to me it feels forced in the Carribean. Maybe I need to get used to it, I'll probably end up sanding in a little recess to lead the thumb (sorry Sal).
-Pocket clip ergos, I really prefer the wire clips. I hardly notice the clip on the Para 3 LW when holding the knife, I definitely feel it on the Carribean. Depending on the orientation, it's probably a little uncomfortable.
-Pocket clip in the pocket, I've been wearing Tech style shorts the past few days. It does feel a little rough going into the pocket. This is something I'll have to monitor. It doesn't seem to be tearing up the shorts, but I'll end up using this knife wearing expensive offshore gear, so I need to be sure it's not abrasive. If it is I'll just sand away the ridges in the back of the handle(again, sorry Sal). We'll see.
-Compression lock, I think this is my favorite style of lock, I've come to really enjoy it on the Para 3 LW. The carribean's seems much stiffer than the Para 3's, to the point it's uncomfortable to disengage. I do feel that this has broken in a little bit the past few days, hopefully that continues to improve.

Until I sharpen it that's all I have to say. It's a really cool knife, I'm happy with the purchase. I definitely see it as a "working" purpose driven knife more than an EDC knife... I think that's great.


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