Sprints

[Ankerson]

I know that this sentiment has been put forth by others, probably in a far more articulate manner, but my general view of this is the reason for me to have this "hobby" is supposed to be, well, enjoyable, the community, the awesome new steels & materials.... but when I try, several "release days" in a row, to order a knife the picosecond it's available, and I get snubbed over and over, it makes something that's supposed to be a fun hobby, something that is stressful and frustrating, that I'm paying (or trying to) for.... that seems to defeat the purpose of what I think allot of us are "here" for....

That is why I just moved on and stopped trying. There have been knives I wanted and they are sold out in milliseconds. I also Preorder and get nothing. I just stopped caring and use my old stand by knives.

Then the knife I wanted is 150 more than retail a week later on Ebay.

Thats the market and thats ok. I just am to slow to keep up....LOL :)

I got in on the preorder of the Shaman Sprint Run...

But it was very ugly doing it I can tell you, it took awhile because the site kept crashing, but once I got one into the cart it was somewhat better.

It only crashed a few more times before I was able to check out.

By the site crashing I mean it went down completely, and more than a few times...

Not an enjoyable experience at all... And it took quite awhile...

[prndltech]

I don’t even try for sprints... but I know military’s won’t sell out instantaneously while I’m at work so... I’m glad I like military’s and not PM2’s or shamans! Even then I pass on a lot of em.

[dan31]

I try to get the sprints I want. If I miss it, I miss it. No big deal. It’s a hobby. I have more great knives than I can shake a stick at. Not sure if I’m interested in the REX 45 models. Just not sure, which means I should pass and save for something I really want.

[Ankerson]

I try to get the sprints I want. If I miss it, I miss it. No big deal. It’s a hobby. I have more great knives than I can shake a stick at. Not sure if I’m interested in the REX 45 models. Just not sure, which means I should pass and save for something I really want.

I don't buy that many myself.

Has to be something really different for me to think about it.

And I have to like the base model.

[Tucson Tom]

I've gotten lucky more often than I've gotten bulldozed -- but it is pretty crazy. At this point I basically tell myself I don't need any more knives. Or I try to tell myself that. It is absolutely true, proper grammar or otherwise. Honestly the sprints can be better than the exclusives because a bunch of dealers are involved, and Spyderco doesn't seem to ship all in one batch -- so you get several chances in multiple places. But it is a crazy stupid game to have to play.

For some reason I had decided that I absolutely had to have the Cruwear Micarta Shaman -- and everything kept going wrong over and over. Now that was beyond crazy - it was ugly and frustrating. But ultimately I got one. I am going to try to avoid getting my head into that state again.

Preorders are another form of insanity. It has never yet worked for me and it lulls you into a sense of complacency. Unless you just don't really care and are resigned to take the luck of the draw avoid preorders. I see some models on the horizon that I can't quite make my mind up on, so maybe I will preorder and figure that is much like tossing a coin, but probably not with 50/50 odds.

[dan31]

I will say I do like the idea of sprint runs. I like the way Spyderco continues to offer something special. I hope they keep going with the concept. Who knows what the future holds for metallurgy and process technology. It keeps the hobby interesting.

[JRinFL]

Well, I don’t feel so alone now after reading some comments about the present state of sprints!
Just tossing my 2¢ in, I’d support fewer sprints in larger volume with serial numbers. I think it would be better for Spyderco and customers. Dealer exclusives would remain as they are since the dealer or distributor is footing the bill.

[AwayFromMySpydieHole]

I know that this sentiment has been put forth by others, probably in a far more articulate manner, but my general view of this is the reason for me to have this "hobby" is supposed to be, well, enjoyable, the community, the awesome new steels & materials.... but when I try, several "release days" in a row, to order a knife the picosecond it's available, and I get snubbed over and over, it makes something that's supposed to be a fun hobby, something that is stressful and frustrating, that I'm paying (or trying to) for.... that seems to defeat the purpose of what I think allot of us are "here" for....

A hobby is supposed to be enjoyable. :)

Not stressful or frustrating.


There is more than enough stressful and frustrating things in life already for a hobby to be one of them.

A big Amen to that one.

[Liquid Cobra]

It’s funny to me that so many of you are supporting the idea of serial numbers on your knives. Serial numbers lead to registration. Registration leads to confiscation. :D

Honestly, what will a serial number do? Show that someone bought a sprint from a specific dealer and then it ended up on eBay at an inflated price? So what? What would anyone then do about such a thing? Would you expect Spyderco to go after that dealer for not vetting the customer they sold the knife to? It’s utter nonsense.

If Spyderco makes a sprint, it’s typically using materials of an existing knife that’s they don’t feel is in their best interest to mass produce. it also gives us an opportunity to get an afi version (bonus!). If Spyderco makes a knife for a dealer exclusive (there is a difference), they make as many as the dealer is willing to purchase. If the dealer wants more, they can order another batch. Spyderco can’t make them order more batches...

People miss out. That’s a fact of life. I’m very tired of seeing the world bending over for the complaining masses. If you want a sprint or exclusive so bad, make it a priority. If you miss out, buy it on the second market. If you can’t do either of those things, wait for the next cool release.

Bah!

[The Meat man]

It’s funny to me that so many of you are supporting the idea of serial numbers on your knives. Serial numbers lead to registration. Registration leads to confiscation. :D

Honestly, what will a serial number do? Show that someone bought a sprint from a specific dealer and then it ended up on eBay at an inflated price? So what? What would anyone then do about such a thing? Would you expect Spyderco to go after that dealer for not vetting the customer they sold the knife to? It’s utter nonsense...

I'm also confused why people think a serial number would help the problem of not enough supply for the demand. Unless the idea is that extra engraving on the blade would put some people off from buying it, thereby leaving more for others; but that doesn't make much sense either.

[SSD_777]

The idea of sprints being sold exclusively through SFO sounds good in theory, but there’s a lot of details that make that not sound as appealing once you stop and think about it. Again, I like the concept, but then Spyderco has to deal with the massive increase in processing orders and shipping stuff if they took on ALL sprint traffic. You’d also have the big dealers that get all the buzz from sprints and any collateral sales that result that are now mad that you took that from them (though they’d still obviously have exclusives). It’d probably start making the whole sprint run concept less financially sound for Spyderco.

They could do serial numbers instead...

They would know were they all went step by step...

In the end we would see a lot more in the customers hands at normal prices before the flippers etc got them....

At least they would have a much better chance going were they are supposed to go with the people in the supply chain knowing they are being tracked.

So you're proposing that Spyderco sell all Sprint runs through their store. That would mean these knives sell at full MSRP for the majority of customers. Is Spyderco then supposed to police the knife world by wasting time tracking, investigating serial numbers, and then enforcing some Spyderco law that is supposed to prevent somebody from selling their knives on the secondary market. Hmm, I'll take my chances with the retailers.

[JonLeBlanc]

Yeah, there's quite a bit of "there oughtta be a law"-ism in this thread lol.

[ChrisinHove]

For sprints and exclusives to have a premium market or collectible status there has to be scarcity, otherwise it doesn’t work.

Sprints and exclusives incur higher production costs, and have to sell out both to recoup costs and maintain exclusivity. We can all see the models that linger, and are for ever tainted by that, in reputation.

Too much scarcity, however, and the gains clearly begin to be outweighed by customer frustration and loss of loyalty.

It’s just a balance.

Personally, I would like to see unannounced sprints and flash batches appearing in dealerships, with random release dates and times, just to keep everyone on their toes!

[Evil D]

I think a possible solution here is to make a system like the collector's club for forum members where pre-orders are literally pre-sales where sprints are paid for up front and then production is based on the total number of pre-sales plus maybe a bit more to cover any possible warranty/replacement issues. Make the pre-sale open for X amount of time so everyone who wants one can get in on it.

Personally I'm not into the idea of serial numbers and I wouldn't even want a collector's club number. It's also up for debate whether this sort of random number production will work for Spyderco and their makers, there likely needs to be some kind of limit on sprint production numbers due to steel availability and such.

This wouldn't prevent people from selling their knives at inflated prices after the pre-sale ends, but I think we'd all feel more comfortable knowing that people had a fair and open chance to sign up to get one if they wanted to, as opposed to everyone jumping on a website all at once rushing to get one only to miss out. If a pre-sale was announced and open for say one week and then closed then whoever missed out just wasn't staying in the loop and needs to participate in the forum more often.

The potential issue with this is that there are a lot more forum members than the typical 1200 piece sprint run. There are 25866 registered members on the forum, even though most of those probably aren't regular members there is definitely potential for sprint runs turning into much larger batches of knives.

[Ankerson]

I think a possible solution here is to make a system like the collector's club for forum members where pre-orders are literally pre-sales where sprints are paid for up front and then production is based on the total number of pre-sales plus maybe a bit more to cover any possible warranty/replacement issues. Make the pre-sale open for X amount of time so everyone who wants one can get in on it.

Personally I'm not into the idea of serial numbers and I wouldn't even want a collector's club number. It's also up for debate whether this sort of random number production will work for Spyderco and their makers, there likely needs to be some kind of limit on sprint production numbers due to steel availability and such.

This wouldn't prevent people from selling their knives at inflated prices after the pre-sale ends, but I think we'd all feel more comfortable knowing that people had a fair and open chance to sign up to get one if they wanted to, as opposed to everyone jumping on a website all at once rushing to get one only to miss out. If a pre-sale was announced and open for say one week and then closed then whoever missed out just wasn't staying in the loop and needs to participate in the forum more often.

The potential issue with this is that there are a lot more forum members than the typical 1200 piece sprint run. There are 25866 registered members on the forum, even though most of those probably aren't regular members there is definitely potential for sprint runs turning into much larger batches of knives.

Like Busse does, they keep the window open on preorders for a certain amount of time.

Then they make the knives to fill those orders.

[The Deacon]

That's why the serial number idea is best. :)

Only in the sense that at least some of the folks who object to extraneous writing on their knives would stop buying Sprints.

You do know that any dishonest activity over the internet is illegal right?

It's all fraud....

Then once they mail it that's mail fraud etc....

Yes, you can actually put these people in jail and they can do real time...

The min they buy it under false pretenses it becomes illegal merchandise and anything that happens after that is also illegal. So anyone involved can all be charged... They could actually tack on weapons charges too if they got really picky and really wanted to nail them to the wall..

Then there is also income tax evasion on both the State and Federal level while they are adding the charges up.

That's the reason why I have been screaming about it....

Having a hard time figuring how you make that jump in logic. I'm not understanding where"fraud" of any kind is involved. Seems to me that you're confusing behaviors that might be morally or unethically questionable with behaviors that are criminal.

Once a person, or a business, buys something, they own it and it's theirs to do with pretty much as they please. Spyderco can set, and enforce, MAP pricing for its dealers, but cannot legally prevent a dealer from selling at MSRP or higher, selling on eBay at a premium under a different name, or selling all their stock of an item to one person who offers to pay a premium for them and then sells them on eBay and/or the forums at an even higher premium.

You also seem to be assuming that those who sell knives on eBay do not report the profits from those sales as income. I have no way of knowing if the do, but suspect that you have no way of knowing they don't.

[AwayFromMySpydieHole]

That's why the serial number idea is best. :)

Only in the sense that at least some of the folks who object to extraneous writing on their knives would stop buying Sprints.

You do know that any dishonest activity over the internet is illegal right?

It's all fraud....

Then once they mail it that's mail fraud etc....

Yes, you can actually put these people in jail and they can do real time...

The min they buy it under false pretenses it becomes illegal merchandise and anything that happens after that is also illegal. So anyone involved can all be charged... They could actually tack on weapons charges too if they got really picky and really wanted to nail them to the wall..

Then there is also income tax evasion on both the State and Federal level while they are adding the charges up.

That's the reason why I have been screaming about it....

Having a hard time figuring how you make that jump in logic. I'm not understanding where"fraud" of any kind is involved. Seems to me that you're confusing behaviors that might be morally or unethically questionable with behaviors that are criminal.

Once a person, or a business, buys something, they own it and it's theirs to do with pretty much as they please. Spyderco can set, and enforce, MAP pricing for its dealers, but cannot legally prevent a dealer from selling at MSRP or higher, selling on eBay at a premium under a different name, or selling all their stock of an item to one person who offers to pay a premium for them and then sells them on eBay and/or the forums at an even higher premium.

You also seem to be assuming that those who sell knives on eBay do not report the profits from those sales as income. I have no way of knowing if the do, but suspect that you have no way of knowing they don't.

Exactly. This is absolutely not "fraud" or even illegal in any way. A crappy thing to do? Sure. Immoral? Sure. Unethical? Absolutely.


Illegal? Not hardly. That is quite the logical leap it takes to get to that conclusion.

[Ankerson]

That's why the serial number idea is best. :)

Only in the sense that at least some of the folks who object to extraneous writing on their knives would stop buying Sprints.

You do know that any dishonest activity over the internet is illegal right?

It's all fraud....

Then once they mail it that's mail fraud etc....

Yes, you can actually put these people in jail and they can do real time...

The min they buy it under false pretenses it becomes illegal merchandise and anything that happens after that is also illegal. So anyone involved can all be charged... They could actually tack on weapons charges too if they got really picky and really wanted to nail them to the wall..

Then there is also income tax evasion on both the State and Federal level while they are adding the charges up.

That's the reason why I have been screaming about it....

Having a hard time figuring how you make that jump in logic. I'm not understanding where"fraud" of any kind is involved. Seems to me that you're confusing behaviors that might be morally or unethically questionable with behaviors that are criminal.

Once a person, or a business, buys something, they own it and it's theirs to do with pretty much as they please. Spyderco can set, and enforce, MAP pricing for its dealers, but cannot legally prevent a dealer from selling at MSRP or higher, selling on eBay at a premium under a different name, or selling all their stock of an item to one person who offers to pay a premium for them and then sells them on eBay and/or the forums at an even higher premium.

You also seem to be assuming that those who sell knives on eBay do not report the profits from those sales as income. I have no way of knowing if the do, but suspect that you have no way of knowing they don't.

You are missing the relevant detail.

Illegal activity is illegal activity.

Anything that is acquired in a fraudulent matter is automatically illegal merchandise.

Therefore anything that happens to that merchandise after and following is also illegal.

What people don't seem to understand is once the high bandwidth internet was made mandatory across the US it became a Utility as it runs on the same lines (Fiber) as the phone system does.

That makes it Federal.

There is a fine line between morally or unethically questionable and illegal, it all depends on how it was done and what was used to do it.

People get busted for internet crimes quite often, and that's not just hacking either.

And they are all Federal..

[Ankerson]

That's why the serial number idea is best. :)

Only in the sense that at least some of the folks who object to extraneous writing on their knives would stop buying Sprints.

You do know that any dishonest activity over the internet is illegal right?

It's all fraud....

Then once they mail it that's mail fraud etc....

Yes, you can actually put these people in jail and they can do real time...

The min they buy it under false pretenses it becomes illegal merchandise and anything that happens after that is also illegal. So anyone involved can all be charged... They could actually tack on weapons charges too if they got really picky and really wanted to nail them to the wall..

Then there is also income tax evasion on both the State and Federal level while they are adding the charges up.

That's the reason why I have been screaming about it....

Having a hard time figuring how you make that jump in logic. I'm not understanding where"fraud" of any kind is involved. Seems to me that you're confusing behaviors that might be morally or unethically questionable with behaviors that are criminal.

Once a person, or a business, buys something, they own it and it's theirs to do with pretty much as they please. Spyderco can set, and enforce, MAP pricing for its dealers, but cannot legally prevent a dealer from selling at MSRP or higher, selling on eBay at a premium under a different name, or selling all their stock of an item to one person who offers to pay a premium for them and then sells them on eBay and/or the forums at an even higher premium.

You also seem to be assuming that those who sell knives on eBay do not report the profits from those sales as income. I have no way of knowing if the do, but suspect that you have no way of knowing they don't.

Exactly. This is absolutely not "fraud" or even illegal in any way. A crappy thing to do? Sure. Immoral? Sure. Unethical? Absolutely.


Illegal? Not hardly. That is quite the logical leap it takes to get to that conclusion.

Actually it is illegal.

[jdw]

I personally feel that there is far too much monitoring, marketing and both corporate and government meddling in my life already. I would rather miss out on a few knives than add one more layer of someone tracking my purchases.