Production LC200N
Production LC200N
This may have already been discussed. But I dont have time to look through all the posts so here we go.
For many years spyderco made different models in the SALT series of knives. For people who needed a rust proof knife. We all know this. Unfortunately for many years steels were usually a trade between corrosion resistance, toughness, and edge retention. You could buy a salt knife in H1 and never have to worry about it rusting but it wouldnt hold an edge very well at all.
Now that LC200N has been discovered and made into stock sizes perfect for producing knife blades where should spyderco go with this? Considering LC200N basically solves the decades long problem of the holy trinity of steel properties should spyderco simply get rid of the salt line of knives and move to make lc200n the new standard production steel for all their higher end models. I cant really see a valid reason not to do this. If the availability of the steel is there and the cost is similar than why not just start making everything in it?
What does everyone think of replacing s30v with lc200n?
For many years spyderco made different models in the SALT series of knives. For people who needed a rust proof knife. We all know this. Unfortunately for many years steels were usually a trade between corrosion resistance, toughness, and edge retention. You could buy a salt knife in H1 and never have to worry about it rusting but it wouldnt hold an edge very well at all.
Now that LC200N has been discovered and made into stock sizes perfect for producing knife blades where should spyderco go with this? Considering LC200N basically solves the decades long problem of the holy trinity of steel properties should spyderco simply get rid of the salt line of knives and move to make lc200n the new standard production steel for all their higher end models. I cant really see a valid reason not to do this. If the availability of the steel is there and the cost is similar than why not just start making everything in it?
What does everyone think of replacing s30v with lc200n?
Re: Production LC200N
There is still quite a lot of support for H1, particularly in serrated form. Toughness between the two still seems to be debated too. I have mentioned in other threads that I would be completely ok with LC replacing S30V as the standard production steel even if the rest of the knife wasn't a full Salt model.
I have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.
Anyway back to your question, they're already making more and more models in LC but it doesn't seem like it'll be totally replacing H1 just yet. Apparently the upcoming Pacific Salt 2 will still be in H1, though there is a lot of interest in a FFG/LC version so if nothing else maybe we can hope for a sprint or variant in LC.
I have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.
Anyway back to your question, they're already making more and more models in LC but it doesn't seem like it'll be totally replacing H1 just yet. Apparently the upcoming Pacific Salt 2 will still be in H1, though there is a lot of interest in a FFG/LC version so if nothing else maybe we can hope for a sprint or variant in LC.
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~David
~David
Re: Production LC200N
I’d be fine with that, but the salt line is more than just the blade. They would have to rustproof the hardware on all the models, because someone would think they can use it like a true salt. This would in the end drive up the cost of all S30V models. Again, I don’t mind paying the up charge, but I feel many wouldn’t. There would also be a large group of people outside of this knife community that really wouldn’t understand what they have or what they are paying for.
Dane
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Re: Production LC200N
To be clear: I have no personal experience with either LC200N or plain edge in H1.
But in the rather short time I have had it till now, I have used my serrated Pac Salt a lot and really did beat on it like on maybe no other folder so far.
And in my experience serrated H1 is all that great as they always said (and I initially was prepared to NOT fully believe that!) - concerning toughness, edge holding and sharpenability... it should never be replaced as far as I am concerned! (Though, as said: I can´t speak for LC200N - serrated or not - from personal experience)
But in the rather short time I have had it till now, I have used my serrated Pac Salt a lot and really did beat on it like on maybe no other folder so far.
And in my experience serrated H1 is all that great as they always said (and I initially was prepared to NOT fully believe that!) - concerning toughness, edge holding and sharpenability... it should never be replaced as far as I am concerned! (Though, as said: I can´t speak for LC200N - serrated or not - from personal experience)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Production LC200N
Despite living in a State mostly surrounded by salt water and fully submerged in humidity, I have never found rust on my s30v blades. So, based on that I would not need or want LC200n on every blade. I’d rather have better edge retention over extreme rust resistance. If there were a steel change, I’d rather it be to s35vn or the newest S**v steel Sal mention a while back. Just my two cents.
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Re: Production LC200N
I must be odd man out. My 4 H1 SE blades have disappointed me with lack luster edge holding. Closer to Aus6 performance-wise in my use, except for rust resistance, of course.Wartstein wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:14 amTo be clear: I have no personal experience with either LC200N or plain edge in H1.
But in the rather short time I have had it till now, I have used my serrated Pac Salt a lot and really did beat on it like on maybe no other folder so far.
And in my experience serrated H1 is all that great as they always said (and I initially was prepared to NOT fully believe that!) - concerning toughness, edge holding and sharpenability... it should never be replaced as far as I am concerned! (Though, as said: I can´t speak for LC200N - serrated or not - from personal experience)
"...it costs nothing to be polite." - Winston Churchill
“Maybe the cheese in the mousetrap is an artificially created cheaper price?” -Sal
Friends call me Jim. As do my foes.
M.N.O.S.D. 0001
Re: Production LC200N
JRinFL wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:20 amI must be odd man out. My 4 H1 SE blades have disappointed me with lack luster edge holding. Closer to Aus6 performance-wise in my use, except for rust resistance, of course.Wartstein wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:14 amTo be clear: I have no personal experience with either LC200N or plain edge in H1.
But in the rather short time I have had it till now, I have used my serrated Pac Salt a lot and really did beat on it like on maybe no other folder so far.
And in my experience serrated H1 is all that great as they always said (and I initially was prepared to NOT fully believe that!) - concerning toughness, edge holding and sharpenability... it should never be replaced as far as I am concerned! (Though, as said: I can´t speak for LC200N - serrated or not - from personal experience)
That´s weird... As said, BEFORE I had a Salt SE myself, I could not really comprehend how a genuinly soft steel should get good at edge holding by just that "work hardening thing". I was totally prepared to be disappointed.. But then totally convinced otherwise, solely through practical experience...
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Production LC200N
The salt series is what got me into spyderco and once I realised that these salt knives really could hold up to what really no other knives could I was hooked. I live and work on the beach. But even I dont jump on the salt everything train. There is a hardware issue. There is also a more general discussion that some knives based on there design wont translate well into salt series use.
I have most of the salt series knives. I stick to a pretty simple rule, get h1 in serrated. Lc200n is fine in se or pe but I get my lc200n in plain edge just because I already have so much se h1 laying around. Also when comparing specs on lc200n and h1 people overlook price. H1 consistently runs cheaper than lc200n offerings for folders. Although there are alot of reasons for that.
Part of why I dont support the lets just switch to lc200n argument is I dont think its quite the godsend others say it is. Ive been using it since the mules. (Never could justify a tusk). Its pretty amazing in every aspect but edge holding is still vg10 level in my experience, but at a higher price than vg10 offerings. I dont agree with some hinting its almost on s30v level, maybe thay have magic sharpening equipment. There can be contamination corrosion issues. It pops up every once in a while. Its still essentially rustproof but it can happen.
Se h1 also isnt magic. But it is pretty darn good. If you are terrible like me, then se blades are something you let get dull anyway and just ignore because its still a working saw. I dont care if the scallop doesnt push cut paper, it will still rip through anything.
I have most of the salt series knives. I stick to a pretty simple rule, get h1 in serrated. Lc200n is fine in se or pe but I get my lc200n in plain edge just because I already have so much se h1 laying around. Also when comparing specs on lc200n and h1 people overlook price. H1 consistently runs cheaper than lc200n offerings for folders. Although there are alot of reasons for that.
Part of why I dont support the lets just switch to lc200n argument is I dont think its quite the godsend others say it is. Ive been using it since the mules. (Never could justify a tusk). Its pretty amazing in every aspect but edge holding is still vg10 level in my experience, but at a higher price than vg10 offerings. I dont agree with some hinting its almost on s30v level, maybe thay have magic sharpening equipment. There can be contamination corrosion issues. It pops up every once in a while. Its still essentially rustproof but it can happen.
Se h1 also isnt magic. But it is pretty darn good. If you are terrible like me, then se blades are something you let get dull anyway and just ignore because its still a working saw. I dont care if the scallop doesnt push cut paper, it will still rip through anything.
"Rome's greatest contribution to mathematics was the killing of Archimedes."
Re: Production LC200N
I remember that thread, and felt impressed by what you posted. Yet I've still seen others post that between H1 and LC200N, H1 is superior in SE, and LC is only better in PE. My impression from your thread was that SE LC was at least comparable to SE H1. I could be wrong, but those were the impressions I took away from that.Evil D wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:55 amI have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.
The only LC blade I have is my PE Caribbean, and I like it a lot. At this point, I could even call it the closest to the ideal blade steel (for me) that I've ever experienced. I would definitely like to see LC on more Spyderco knives.
Jim
- curlyhairedboy
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Re: Production LC200N
I'd say there's still a clear difference in edge retention between s30v and Lc200n.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Damasteel Urban, Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, Sage 5 LW, Serrated Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, XHP Shaman, M4/Micarta Shaman, 15v Shaman
Fixed Blades: Proficient, Magnacut Mule
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Ti Native, Calendar Watu, Tanto PM2
Would like to own again: CQI Caribbean Sheepsfoot PE, Watu
Wishlist: Magnacut, Shaman Sprints!
Fixed Blades: Proficient, Magnacut Mule
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Ti Native, Calendar Watu, Tanto PM2
Would like to own again: CQI Caribbean Sheepsfoot PE, Watu
Wishlist: Magnacut, Shaman Sprints!
- Haunted House
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Re: Production LC200N
I actually logged in this morning to ask if there’s any plans to make a Salt 2 in LC200N, or if one already exists.
The only LC200N Salt I can find is the Native 5 salt. It’ll probably be the next knife I buy, but I really want the Salt 2 Wharncliffe SE In LC200N.
The only LC200N Salt I can find is the Native 5 salt. It’ll probably be the next knife I buy, but I really want the Salt 2 Wharncliffe SE In LC200N.
Last edited by Haunted House on Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Production LC200N
In a favour for which one? Not trolling, just asking. I have knives in both steels, but can't really compare them, because I sharpen often.curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:27 pmI'd say there's still a clear difference in edge retention between s30v and Lc200n.
In the pocket: Chaparral FRN, Native Chief, Police 4 K390, Pacific Salt SE, Manix 2 G10 REX45
Re: Production LC200N
Hi CtriKard,
Actually LC200N came first. It is/was called Cronidur 30. There's a story behind that as well. I believe it was about 1998.
lC, being martinsitic is more prone to galvanic corrosion. We're doing a lot of experimenting with the material. We'll probably add LC to some of the Salt models in the future.
sal
Actually LC200N came first. It is/was called Cronidur 30. There's a story behind that as well. I believe it was about 1998.
lC, being martinsitic is more prone to galvanic corrosion. We're doing a lot of experimenting with the material. We'll probably add LC to some of the Salt models in the future.
sal
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Re: Production LC200N
I don't have a bunch of use to compare, but I seem to remember Lance saying that plain edge s30v still holds an edge longer than plain edge Lc200n.Pancake wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:43 pmIn a favour for which one? Not trolling, just asking. I have knives in both steels, but can't really compare them, because I sharpen often.curlyhairedboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:27 pmI'd say there's still a clear difference in edge retention between s30v and Lc200n.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Damasteel Urban, Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, Sage 5 LW, Serrated Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, XHP Shaman, M4/Micarta Shaman, 15v Shaman
Fixed Blades: Proficient, Magnacut Mule
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Ti Native, Calendar Watu, Tanto PM2
Would like to own again: CQI Caribbean Sheepsfoot PE, Watu
Wishlist: Magnacut, Shaman Sprints!
Fixed Blades: Proficient, Magnacut Mule
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Ti Native, Calendar Watu, Tanto PM2
Would like to own again: CQI Caribbean Sheepsfoot PE, Watu
Wishlist: Magnacut, Shaman Sprints!
- Haunted House
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Re: Production LC200N
Could you please share a link to where people have tested SE LC200N vs SE H1?James Y wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:22 pmI remember that thread, and felt impressed by what you posted. Yet I've still seen others post that between H1 and LC200N, H1 is superior in SE, and LC is only better in PE. My impression from your thread was that SE LC was at least comparable to SE H1. I could be wrong, but those were the impressions I took away from that.Evil D wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:55 amI have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.
Jim
I can’t find any testing with the serrated versions being tested head to head.
I’ve found multiple posts & threads asking the question, but no one who’s actually tested them.
Re: Production LC200N
LC200N PM2
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Re: Production LC200N
Not so much a head to head since I don't have an H1 knife that's close enough to compare it to but it does have at least one hard cutting task that was done with both steels and the damage was comparable.Haunted House wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pmCould you please share a link to where people have tested SE LC200N vs SE H1?
I can’t find any testing with the serrated versions being tested head to head.
I’ve found multiple posts & threads asking the question, but no one who’s actually tested them.
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Re: Production LC200N
One of the tricky bits with testing serrated knives is controlling for geometry. There is a broad range of geometry among SE grinds.
The chisel grind of SE, often gives them a narrower edge grind than a similar PE with V grind. Of course the scallops themselves and blade shape/ geometry etc are huge variables. IIRC Sal has shared something about most steels have a 2:1 ratio SE:PE in the CATRA testing, but H1 has about 4:1.
I still don't have any H1 (yet), thought love my LC200N in the Native and Chef and aim to get an SE Native Salt sooner than later. It holds up great for all my wetter uses and it sharpens brilliantly. It isn't as strong as Cruwear, but that's why i have those knives.
Thanks Sal (and family and Co.) for all the great steels! I am getting antsy for a K390 Stretch 2 with a drop point! :spyder: :cool:
The chisel grind of SE, often gives them a narrower edge grind than a similar PE with V grind. Of course the scallops themselves and blade shape/ geometry etc are huge variables. IIRC Sal has shared something about most steels have a 2:1 ratio SE:PE in the CATRA testing, but H1 has about 4:1.
I still don't have any H1 (yet), thought love my LC200N in the Native and Chef and aim to get an SE Native Salt sooner than later. It holds up great for all my wetter uses and it sharpens brilliantly. It isn't as strong as Cruwear, but that's why i have those knives.
Thanks Sal (and family and Co.) for all the great steels! I am getting antsy for a K390 Stretch 2 with a drop point! :spyder: :cool:
- The Deacon
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Re: Production LC200N
To me, the biggest advantage LC200N has over H-1 is that it can be full flat ground in a production knife. I'm really enjoying my Autonomy 2 and I'd love to see a PE FFG Autonomy 1. :) It may never happen, but LC200N at least makes it possible.
Paul
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WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!