Production LC200N

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Haunted House
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Haunted House » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:09 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:48 pm
Haunted House wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pm
Could you please share a link to where people have tested SE LC200N vs SE H1?
I can’t find any testing with the serrated versions being tested head to head.
I’ve found multiple posts & threads asking the question, but no one who’s actually tested them.
Top
jalcon
Not so much a head to head since I don't have an H1 knife that's close enough to compare it to but it does have at least one hard cutting task that was done with both steels and the damage was comparable.

viewtopic.php?t=85045#p1366199
Holy sh*t dude, that thread is magnificent! You really are evil!
My next Spyderco is definitely going to be a SE Native Salt now.
Thank you for sharing that!
Team Wharncliffe

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Evil D
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Evil D » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:36 pm

Haunted House wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:09 pm
Evil D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:48 pm
Haunted House wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pm
Could you please share a link to where people have tested SE LC200N vs SE H1?
I can’t find any testing with the serrated versions being tested head to head.
I’ve found multiple posts & threads asking the question, but no one who’s actually tested them.
Top
jalcon
Not so much a head to head since I don't have an H1 knife that's close enough to compare it to but it does have at least one hard cutting task that was done with both steels and the damage was comparable.

viewtopic.php?t=85045#p1366199
Holy sh*t dude, that thread is magnificent! You really are evil!
My next Spyderco is definitely going to be a SE Native Salt now.
Thank you for sharing that!


It seems impossible to avoid the LC/H1 comparisons, it'll probably go on forever but for me the fact that LC can be full flat ground, and the slicing advantages of FFG vs the low saber hollow grinds that H1 come in far outweigh whatever ultra high end toughness advantage H1 has over LC. The tests I've done are far harder use than I typically use a knife for and prove to me that LC is plenty tough enough and the edge retention has been amazing so I don't feel I'm losing anything vs H1 there either. Sharpening wise both these steels are super easy to get super sharp, but for whatever reason I get better results from LC. Working just with my Goldenstone, I'm able to get much better edges on my LC knives than my H1 knives using the same technique. This could just be me and how I sharpen and one steel responding better than the other? Ultimately though for me the debate between toughness and edge retention of these two steels (at least as far as SE is concerned) is at the very least an even enough fight that FFG vs hollow saber grind is where I see the biggest gains, not to mention LC being more easily accessible for Golden made knives (I know the Autonomy is Golden made H1 but isn't it also the ONLY one to date?).

Realistically as far as SE goes you can't go wrong with either of these steels, and my opinion here seems to go against some others but I think LC has a slight advantage over H1 in edge retention. I haven't done those exact same hard use tests with my Autonomy, but I have definitely had to touch up the edge more often than I am on either of my Caribbeans.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Sumdumguy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:52 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:55 am
I would be completely ok with LC replacing S30V as the standard production steel even if the rest of the knife wasn't a full Salt model.

I have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.
I couldn't have said it better.

I mean, really, I've ran my Caribbean through the ringer and it just laughs and keeps going. If you NEED more toughness in your folder, what you NEED is a fixed blade.

Personally, I'll take LC200N>H1 in either edge, because I prefer how LC200N performs in my use, versus how H1 performed under the same demands.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby James Y » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:01 pm

I also find that LC seems to take a sharper edge easier, even though both LC and H1 are very easy to sharpen. For me, LC is almost a 'dream steel'.

Jim

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:10 pm

i agree with many of you here that would replace s30v with lc2000n. i’d even agree with evild about the rest of the knife not needing to be full salt. i would say, however, that we know other metals don’t alway play nice with lc200n, so that could cause some serious issues.
i’m hoping to see more golden models come out in salt versions in the near future, but i fear that they will only be released as lightweight models. there’s already a para3 lw and talk of a lil native lw. i imaging these will be the knives to get the salt treatment like the native did. personally, i’d prefer a lil native salt with lined g10 and a compression lock. i’d love a manix with this treatment as well, but im not sure the cbbl can be made salt-worthy (even though the tusk has all the components necessary to make a manix salt).
anyway, i’m all for more production salts. at one point there was at least some talk of it happening, but it’s been a while since i’ve seen anything from spyderco on that front.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Sumdumguy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:27 pm

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:10 pm
i agree with many of you here that would replace s30v with lc2000n. i’d even agree with evild about the rest of the knife not needing to be full salt. i would say, however, that we know other metals don’t alway play nice with lc200n, so that could cause some serious issues.
I can't imagine that it's that big of an issue to saltify the liners. It's just a matter of using LC200N rather than the usual steel. The standoffs were the only thing that had a bit of corrosion after a year of almost no maintenance.

Moar Salt!

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby ugaarguy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:48 pm

Haunted House wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:09 pm
Evil D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:48 pm
Haunted House wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pm
Could you please share a link to where people have tested SE LC200N vs SE H1?
I can’t find any testing with the serrated versions being tested head to head.
I’ve found multiple posts & threads asking the question, but no one who’s actually tested them.
Top
jalcon
Not so much a head to head since I don't have an H1 knife that's close enough to compare it to but it does have at least one hard cutting task that was done with both steels and the damage was comparable.

viewtopic.php?t=85045#p1366199
Holy sh*t dude, that thread is magnificent! You really are evil!
My next Spyderco is definitely going to be a SE Native Salt now.
Thank you for sharing that!
A PE Native 5 Salt has been at or near the top of my list as the next knife I want to buy. I've long preferred PE to SE, but after reading that thread, I'm also now very close to pulling the trigger on a SE Native 5 Salt.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby ctrikard » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:03 am

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone. Especially you Sal. I didnt know it had actually been around longer.

For me personally I would not mind the switch. But I also wouldn't mind not switching and just seeing more lc200n options in the game. Especially with golden models which seems to be the path were headed anyway.

I agree with you as well evil d. I wouldnt mind just lc200n blades and not full salt versions. It would be great to see a manix lw and a para 3 lw and even some g10 models with lc200n in the future. Although if it can be fully salt proof like a para 3 could be then yea of course just go ahead and go all the way with it. The only reason not to imo would be for something like the manix where the spring or rivets couldn't feasibly be made of rust proof steel.

S30v is a fantastic steel imo. I'm not one of these guys who thinks it's old and outdated or what have you. Its reasonably tough. It takes a wicked edge and holds it a commendable amount of time and it's usually plenty stainless enough for my personal needs. Although I have experienced some spotting cutting different foods. All that to say I think it has a place in the knife world for many years to come. Unless something can match all of its qualities and then exceed some and come in at or below the same cost. Then why not?

I'm very curious about the pe retention of lc200n now though. After reading all your comments I'm not as confident that it does hold up as well as s30v even though all of the testing I've seen claims that it does. There are many factors though when it comes to edge retention and not just the steel. Love to see an extensive test of knives pe and se with the same geometry sharpened at the same angle etc etc ran against one another with different mediums and see how s30v holds up against LC and how se lc does against se h1.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Cambertree » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:36 am

Yes I'd also like to see a comparison between SE H1 and SE LC200N.

PE LC200N is not on the same level as S30V in my experience. I value Lance/Surfingringo's assessments and opinions, however I think fine edge dulling from being in a coastal environment my have been a factor in his rating of PE LC200N as being almost as wear resistant as S30V. (And he did mention this in his reviews.)

In my uses it feels more similar to my AEB-L Urban or 8Cr13MoV. It seems a bit less wear resistant than VG10. However I am running it at quite a low edge angle and behind the edge thinness, so micro rolling of the apex may be a factor.

I'd be interested to see LC200N run into the low 60s. However Spyderco are pretty good at finding that sweet spot in their R&D, so perhaps chipping may be a factor when run harder than around 59HRC.

It does take a superb sticky sharp fine edge with minimal effort.

I'm looking forward to trying out SE LC200N, which IIRC Sal said CATRA tested at around 3.8 times the edge retention of PE LC200N.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby ctrikard » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:28 am

That's interesting. I just can't bring myself to buy a serrated blade for some reason.

But the reason I always thought lc200n was about the same as s30v in regards to edge retention is because of all the testers on YouTube. Steve and Pete both got very good results with lc200n cutting cardboard and rope as well as some other testers and they claimed the edge retention was close to s30v. So it seems like there is a disconnect between their testing and personal experiences in real world use situations. Although personal feelings about how a steel performs in everyday use can be very subjective in a lot of cases and subject to inherent biases for or against a particular steel.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby James Y » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:57 am

As far as edge retention goes, my PE Caribbean is about the same as or even a little below PE VG-10, and not as high as PE S30V.

Of course, SE blades, by their very nature and in any steel tend to have better edge-holding than PE. Although I don’t have any SE LC, I can’t see any reason why it couldn’t be comparable to SE H1, since LC already holds an edge in PE better. LC certainly feels harder than H1. Or perhaps I’m way off-base.

Jim

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Wartstein
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Wartstein » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:03 pm

ctrikard wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:28 am
That's interesting. I just can't bring myself to buy a serrated blade for some reason.

....

I was once like you... and now glad, that I gave SE (SPYDERCOS SE!) a fair try finally.

Prefer it over PE actually, just some KNIVES I prefer do not come in SE (or, like the Endura, just in sabre grind and SE)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Surfingringo » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:48 pm

Regarding the OP, I would not advocate replacing everything with LC200n and doing away with the Salt line. Mainly because variety is the spice of life but specifically because (in the case of say s30v and lc200n) you would be giving up edge retention for a level of corrosion resistance that the average user doesn’t need. LC200n has good edge performance compared to H1 but there are still plenty of high carbide stainless steels that will outperform it in wear resistance. Also it should be noted that there is far more to making a “Salt” knife than just changing the steel.

I WOULD however be happy to see LC200n used in more standard production “non salt” knives. (Like Millie and PM2 for example). I think knives like that would sell extremely well. I think maybe the reason that hasn’t happened is because they are reserving lc200n steel for their full blown salt knives only. Why? I’m not sure but it might be because people associate that steel with being a Salt knife so if they just dropped an lc200n blade in a standard pm2 people might assume and expect it was a Salt knife when it actually wasn’t, resulting in rusty knives and warranty complaints? That’s just a guess. Personally, I believe you can get around that with clear marketing including name changes, blade markings and “Salt” logos, etc. I mean, nobody is mistaking an Endurance for a Pacific Salt are they? But once you start using the same steel I guess the chance for confusion could increase. I don’t know.

What I do know is that I hate seeing lc200n being relegated to use only in Salt knives and I also hate seeing Salt designs being relegated to only being rustproof offerings. What I mean by the latter is I would eventually like to see some designs in the Salt line offered in non salt higher wear resistance offerings. I mean, if there is room for a Salt 2 AND a Delica then surely there is room for a Siren and non salt Siren in s110v or Maxamet. ;) :p

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby sal » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:24 am

Hi Lance,

That's a good guess. We can only make so many variations. Also, explanations become very complicated.

sal

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Xplorer » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:10 am

Cambertree wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:36 am
Yes I'd also like to see a comparison between SE H1 and SE LC200N.

PE LC200N is not on the same level as S30V in my experience. I value Lance/Surfingringo's assessments and opinions, however I think fine edge dulling from being in a coastal environment my have been a factor in his rating of PE LC200N as being almost as wear resistant as S30V. (And he did mention this in his reviews.)

In my uses it feels more similar to my AEB-L Urban or 8Cr13MoV. It seems a bit less wear resistant than VG10. However I am running it at quite a low edge angle and behind the edge thinness, so micro rolling of the apex may be a factor.

I'd be interested to see LC200N run into the low 60s. However Spyderco are pretty good at finding that sweet spot in their R&D, so perhaps chipping may be a factor when run harder than around 59HRC.

It does take a superb sticky sharp fine edge with minimal effort.

I'm looking forward to trying out SE LC200N, which IIRC Sal said CATRA tested at around 3.8 times the edge retention of PE LC200N.
Hi Cambertree,

I've spent quite a lot of time working with LC200N (both for Lance's Siren project, as well as my own projects).

The hardness of LC200N seems to be capped at about 61. The production LC200N we see is generally HRC58/59. As we've all seen it performs quite well at 58/59. I've done a lot of work specifically to create a custom heat treat protocol that achieves a higher hardness and I can tell you that the extra time, cost and effort to get LC above 59 is simply more than we can ever expect a production company to do.

I have tested a bunch of LC200N blades at HRC 60.5 and just a couple of weeks ago my friend Shawn (deadboxhero) achieved 61. All of my testing has shown that LC200N performs noticeably better at that slightly higher hardness. It demonstrated better edge holding in the form of increased wear resistance. There is no chipping or any other adverse effects and edge retention is improved.

So, while it can get a little better than we currently see in production..only a little better...it's not likely to happen in production because of time and cost.

Best regards,
CK
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker and So. Cal native.
@Xplorer42 on Instagram.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby ladybug93 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:06 am

Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:48 pm
Regarding the OP, I would not advocate replacing everything with LC200n and doing away with the Salt line. Mainly because variety is the spice of life but specifically because (in the case of say s30v and lc200n) you would be giving up edge retention for a level of corrosion resistance that the average user doesn’t need. LC200n has good edge performance compared to H1 but there are still plenty of high carbide stainless steels that will outperform it in wear resistance. Also it should be noted that there is far more to making a “Salt” knife than just changing the steel.

I WOULD however be happy to see LC200n used in more standard production “non salt” knives. (Like Millie and PM2 for example). I think knives like that would sell extremely well. I think maybe the reason that hasn’t happened is because they are reserving lc200n steel for their full blown salt knives only. Why? I’m not sure but it might be because people associate that steel with being a Salt knife so if they just dropped an lc200n blade in a standard pm2 people might assume and expect it was a Salt knife when it actually wasn’t, resulting in rusty knives and warranty complaints? That’s just a guess. Personally, I believe you can get around that with clear marketing including name changes, blade markings and “Salt” logos, etc. I mean, nobody is mistaking an Endurance for a Pacific Salt are they? But once you start using the same steel I guess the chance for confusion could increase. I don’t know.

What I do know is that I hate seeing lc200n being relegated to use only in Salt knives and I also hate seeing Salt designs being relegated to only being rustproof offerings. What I mean by the latter is I would eventually like to see some designs in the Salt line offered in non salt higher wear resistance offerings. I mean, if there is room for a Salt 2 AND a Delica then surely there is room for a Siren and non salt Siren in s110v or Maxamet. ;) :p
the average user doesn’t need s30v edge retention either. there are probably more people walking around just fine with knives in aus8, 8cr13mov, etc. than s30v or other steels with higher edge retention.
i would assume the average user would be better suited with a blade that could be used for any task without worry of corrosion while requiring less maintenance and that sharpened easily than they would with a blade that didn’t need to be sharpened as often. maybe the average user isn’t going to rust s30v, but a lot of people do. i’ve cleaned up rusty s30v and it was surprisingly resilient, but the person i did that for didn’t even have a torx bit set to take care of it himself and he’s a handy guy with tons of tools. my point is the average user probably doesn’t maintain their knives, doesn’t have the equipment to do so, and is probably less adept at sharpening.
on the other hand, the average user looking to upgrade to a higher end steel might have trouble justifying the extra cost for slightly decreased performance that people report with lc200n vs s30v in threads like this. i don’t think the difference is really drastic enough for most people to notice. i guess it just depends on what you prioritize based on your needs.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby pantagana23 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:28 am

ctrikard wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:47 am
This may have already been discussed. But I dont have time to look through all the posts so here we go.

For many years spyderco made different models in the SALT series of knives. For people who needed a rust proof knife. We all know this. Unfortunately for many years steels were usually a trade between corrosion resistance, toughness, and edge retention. You could buy a salt knife in H1 and never have to worry about it rusting but it wouldnt hold an edge very well at all.

Now that LC200N has been discovered and made into stock sizes perfect for producing knife blades where should spyderco go with this? Considering LC200N basically solves the decades long problem of the holy trinity of steel properties should spyderco simply get rid of the salt line of knives and move to make lc200n the new standard production steel for all their higher end models. I cant really see a valid reason not to do this. If the availability of the steel is there and the cost is similar than why not just start making everything in it?

What does everyone think of replacing s30v with lc200n?
I took the liberty of checking prices of steels on AKS and Admiral steel, and have the following info on pricing (took your wish, and a couple of steels I would like to see more).
All prices are per cubic inch (could not compare otherwise, as they are sold in different dimensions).

Prices from least to most expensive:

S35VN 10.33 $/in3
S30V 10.64 $/in3
LC200N 16.03 $/in3
M390 25.74 $/in3
Vanax 36.30 $/in3

IMO there's more financial logic to switch to S35VN, which is an upgraded S30V, and is cheaper than S30V (not sure how is this possible though).

And now look at Vanax :D

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby VooDooChild » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:41 am

ladybug93 wrote:
Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:48 pm
Regarding the OP, I would not advocate replacing everything with LC200n and doing away with the Salt line. Mainly because variety is the spice of life but specifically because (in the case of say s30v and lc200n) you would be giving up edge retention for a level of corrosion resistance that the average user doesn’t need. LC200n has good edge performance compared to H1 but there are still plenty of high carbide stainless steels that will outperform it in wear resistance. Also it should be noted that there is far more to making a “Salt” knife than just changing the steel.

I WOULD however be happy to see LC200n used in more standard production “non salt” knives. (Like Millie and PM2 for example). I think knives like that would sell extremely well. I think maybe the reason that hasn’t happened is because they are reserving lc200n steel for their full blown salt knives only. Why? I’m not sure but it might be because people associate that steel with being a Salt knife so if they just dropped an lc200n blade in a standard pm2 people might assume and expect it was a Salt knife when it actually wasn’t, resulting in rusty knives and warranty complaints? That’s just a guess. Personally, I believe you can get around that with clear marketing including name changes, blade markings and “Salt” logos, etc. I mean, nobody is mistaking an Endurance for a Pacific Salt are they? But once you start using the same steel I guess the chance for confusion could increase. I don’t know.

What I do know is that I hate seeing lc200n being relegated to use only in Salt knives and I also hate seeing Salt designs being relegated to only being rustproof offerings. What I mean by the latter is I would eventually like to see some designs in the Salt line offered in non salt higher wear resistance offerings. I mean, if there is room for a Salt 2 AND a Delica then surely there is room for a Siren and non salt Siren in s110v or Maxamet. ;) :p
the average user doesn’t need s30v edge retention either. there are probably more people walking around just fine with knives in aus8, 8cr13mov, etc. than s30v or other steels with higher edge retention.
i would assume the average user would be better suited with a blade that could be used for any task without worry of corrosion while requiring less maintenance and that sharpened easily than they would with a blade that didn’t need to be sharpened as often. maybe the average user isn’t going to rust s30v, but a lot of people do. i’ve cleaned up rusty s30v and it was surprisingly resilient, but the person i did that for didn’t even have a torx bit set to take care of it himself and he’s a handy guy with tons of tools. my point is the average user probably doesn’t maintain their knives, doesn’t have the equipment to do so, and is probably less adept at sharpening.
on the other hand, the average user looking to upgrade to a higher end steel might have trouble justifying the extra cost for slightly decreased performance that people report with lc200n vs s30v in threads like this. i don’t think the difference is really drastic enough for most people to notice. i guess it just depends on what you prioritize based on your needs.
I understand alot of points being made but I have to argue the other side. Lc200n and h1 should be for full blown salt knives because the only people gaining an advantage are folks who are actually getting thier knives wet in the saltwater. I work on the beach and I really wonder how exagerated some stories might be, Ive seen plenty of regular stainless be just fine even with regular beach or boat use.

Also I cant help but think of the old timers I work with. (People not knives) Anyway, they know theres carbon steel and they know theres stainless. They dont care about technical specs or what the name is. They wouldnt care or bother to listen about there being a difference between stainless and rust proof. They know how to prevent rust, which they are going to keep doing, even on a rustproof knife, because like I said they are just going to assume that means good stainless. They also know how to sharpen and are pretty good at getting a free hand working edge. About the only thing they judge a working knife off of is edge holding and price. BUT... they are also not going to pay alot of money for a pocket knife or work knife, and as I said they are not going to take the time to learn about steels or pay the difference for super steels. Basically Im saying even though maxamet might blow thier mind they are never going to try it. Not unless I bought it for them and I dont like my coworkers that much. Point is I think alot of regular knife users are like this. The kind who would never jump on a forum and talk about this stuff. They want edge holding at an affordable price point. They know carbon steel rust, they might be able to sharpen, and they dont care about anything else.

Its good that companies like spyderco and a couple others give options to people like us who do care about such things.

Edit. I dont personally have any issue with lances suggestion for lc200n in non salt knives, and salt designs also having non salt designs, but like I said alot of us dont represent regular users.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby yablanowitz » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:14 pm

LC200N did not impress me in the Mules, certainly not enough to justify making it a primary production steel. But then, 1095 is corrosion resistant enough for me.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Wartstein » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:38 pm

Xplorer wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:10 am
Cambertree wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:36 am
Hi Cambertree,

I've spent quite a lot of time working with LC200N (both for Lance's Siren project, as well as my own projects).

The hardness of LC200N seems to be capped at about 61. The production LC200N we see is generally HRC58/59. As we've all seen it performs quite well at 58/59. I've done a lot of work specifically to create a custom heat treat protocol that achieves a higher hardness and I can tell you that the extra time, cost and effort to get LC above 59 is simply more than we can ever expect a production company to do.

I have tested a bunch of LC200N blades at HRC 60.5 and just a couple of weeks ago my friend Shawn (deadboxhero) achieved 61. All of my testing has shown that LC200N performs noticeably better at that slightly higher hardness. It demonstrated better edge holding in the form of increased wear resistance. There is no chipping or any other adverse effects and edge retention is improved.

So, while it can get a little better than we currently see in production..only a little better...it's not likely to happen in production because of time and cost.

Best regards,
CK

I am not Cambertree, but still:
Very interesting, thanx!!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40


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