Production LC200N

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ctrikard
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Production LC200N

Postby ctrikard » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:47 am

This may have already been discussed. But I dont have time to look through all the posts so here we go.

For many years spyderco made different models in the SALT series of knives. For people who needed a rust proof knife. We all know this. Unfortunately for many years steels were usually a trade between corrosion resistance, toughness, and edge retention. You could buy a salt knife in H1 and never have to worry about it rusting but it wouldnt hold an edge very well at all.

Now that LC200N has been discovered and made into stock sizes perfect for producing knife blades where should spyderco go with this? Considering LC200N basically solves the decades long problem of the holy trinity of steel properties should spyderco simply get rid of the salt line of knives and move to make lc200n the new standard production steel for all their higher end models. I cant really see a valid reason not to do this. If the availability of the steel is there and the cost is similar than why not just start making everything in it?

What does everyone think of replacing s30v with lc200n?

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Evil D
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Evil D » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:55 am

There is still quite a lot of support for H1, particularly in serrated form. Toughness between the two still seems to be debated too. I have mentioned in other threads that I would be completely ok with LC replacing S30V as the standard production steel even if the rest of the knife wasn't a full Salt model.

I have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.

Anyway back to your question, they're already making more and more models in LC but it doesn't seem like it'll be totally replacing H1 just yet. Apparently the upcoming Pacific Salt 2 will still be in H1, though there is a lot of interest in a FFG/LC version so if nothing else maybe we can hope for a sprint or variant in LC.
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Dazen
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Dazen » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:56 am

I’d be fine with that, but the salt line is more than just the blade. They would have to rustproof the hardware on all the models, because someone would think they can use it like a true salt. This would in the end drive up the cost of all S30V models. Again, I don’t mind paying the up charge, but I feel many wouldn’t. There would also be a large group of people outside of this knife community that really wouldn’t understand what they have or what they are paying for.

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Wartstein
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Wartstein » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:14 am

To be clear: I have no personal experience with either LC200N or plain edge in H1.

But in the rather short time I have had it till now, I have used my serrated Pac Salt a lot and really did beat on it like on maybe no other folder so far.

And in my experience serrated H1 is all that great as they always said (and I initially was prepared to NOT fully believe that!) - concerning toughness, edge holding and sharpenability... it should never be replaced as far as I am concerned! (Though, as said: I can´t speak for LC200N - serrated or not - from personal experience)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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JRinFL
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby JRinFL » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:16 am

Despite living in a State mostly surrounded by salt water and fully submerged in humidity, I have never found rust on my s30v blades. So, based on that I would not need or want LC200n on every blade. I’d rather have better edge retention over extreme rust resistance. If there were a steel change, I’d rather it be to s35vn or the newest S**v steel Sal mention a while back. Just my two cents.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder:

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JRinFL
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby JRinFL » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:20 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:14 am
To be clear: I have no personal experience with either LC200N or plain edge in H1.

But in the rather short time I have had it till now, I have used my serrated Pac Salt a lot and really did beat on it like on maybe no other folder so far.

And in my experience serrated H1 is all that great as they always said (and I initially was prepared to NOT fully believe that!) - concerning toughness, edge holding and sharpenability... it should never be replaced as far as I am concerned! (Though, as said: I can´t speak for LC200N - serrated or not - from personal experience)
I must be odd man out. My 4 H1 SE blades have disappointed me with lack luster edge holding. Closer to Aus6 performance-wise in my use, except for rust resistance, of course.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder:

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Wartstein
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Wartstein » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:24 am

JRinFL wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:20 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:14 am
To be clear: I have no personal experience with either LC200N or plain edge in H1.

But in the rather short time I have had it till now, I have used my serrated Pac Salt a lot and really did beat on it like on maybe no other folder so far.

And in my experience serrated H1 is all that great as they always said (and I initially was prepared to NOT fully believe that!) - concerning toughness, edge holding and sharpenability... it should never be replaced as far as I am concerned! (Though, as said: I can´t speak for LC200N - serrated or not - from personal experience)
I must be odd man out. My 4 H1 SE blades have disappointed me with lack luster edge holding. Closer to Aus6 performance-wise in my use, except for rust resistance, of course.

That´s weird... As said, BEFORE I had a Salt SE myself, I could not really comprehend how a genuinly soft steel should get good at edge holding by just that "work hardening thing". I was totally prepared to be disappointed.. But then totally convinced otherwise, solely through practical experience...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby VooDooChild » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:15 pm

The salt series is what got me into spyderco and once I realised that these salt knives really could hold up to what really no other knives could I was hooked. I live and work on the beach. But even I dont jump on the salt everything train. There is a hardware issue. There is also a more general discussion that some knives based on there design wont translate well into salt series use.

I have most of the salt series knives. I stick to a pretty simple rule, get h1 in serrated. Lc200n is fine in se or pe but I get my lc200n in plain edge just because I already have so much se h1 laying around. Also when comparing specs on lc200n and h1 people overlook price. H1 consistently runs cheaper than lc200n offerings for folders. Although there are alot of reasons for that.

Part of why I dont support the lets just switch to lc200n argument is I dont think its quite the godsend others say it is. Ive been using it since the mules. (Never could justify a tusk). Its pretty amazing in every aspect but edge holding is still vg10 level in my experience, but at a higher price than vg10 offerings. I dont agree with some hinting its almost on s30v level, maybe thay have magic sharpening equipment. There can be contamination corrosion issues. It pops up every once in a while. Its still essentially rustproof but it can happen.

Se h1 also isnt magic. But it is pretty darn good. If you are terrible like me, then se blades are something you let get dull anyway and just ignore because its still a working saw. I dont care if the scallop doesnt push cut paper, it will still rip through anything.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby James Y » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:22 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:55 am
I have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.
I remember that thread, and felt impressed by what you posted. Yet I've still seen others post that between H1 and LC200N, H1 is superior in SE, and LC is only better in PE. My impression from your thread was that SE LC was at least comparable to SE H1. I could be wrong, but those were the impressions I took away from that.

The only LC blade I have is my PE Caribbean, and I like it a lot. At this point, I could even call it the closest to the ideal blade steel (for me) that I've ever experienced. I would definitely like to see LC on more Spyderco knives.

Jim

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curlyhairedboy
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby curlyhairedboy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:27 pm

I'd say there's still a clear difference in edge retention between s30v and Lc200n.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, Ouroboros, 4V Shaman, Watu
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native
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Haunted House
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Haunted House » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:43 pm

I actually logged in this morning to ask if there’s any plans to make a Salt 2 in LC200N, or if one already exists.

The only LC200N Salt I can find is the Native 5 salt. It’ll probably be the next knife I buy, but I really want the Salt 2 Wharncliffe SE In LC200N.
Last edited by Haunted House on Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pancake
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Pancake » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:43 pm

curlyhairedboy wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:27 pm
I'd say there's still a clear difference in edge retention between s30v and Lc200n.
In a favour for which one? Not trolling, just asking. I have knives in both steels, but can't really compare them, because I sharpen often.
In the pocket: Chaparral FRN, Native Chief, Police 4 K390, Pacific Salt SE, Manix 2 G10 REX45
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sal
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby sal » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:58 pm

Hi CtriKard,

Actually LC200N came first. It is/was called Cronidur 30. There's a story behind that as well. I believe it was about 1998.

lC, being martinsitic is more prone to galvanic corrosion. We're doing a lot of experimenting with the material. We'll probably add LC to some of the Salt models in the future.

sal

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curlyhairedboy
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby curlyhairedboy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:02 pm

Pancake wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:43 pm
curlyhairedboy wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:27 pm
I'd say there's still a clear difference in edge retention between s30v and Lc200n.
In a favour for which one? Not trolling, just asking. I have knives in both steels, but can't really compare them, because I sharpen often.
I don't have a bunch of use to compare, but I seem to remember Lance saying that plain edge s30v still holds an edge longer than plain edge Lc200n.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, Ouroboros, 4V Shaman, Watu
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native
Would like to own again: Sheepsfoot Caribbean
Wishlist: CQI Kapara, Tanto PM2, Shaman Sprints!

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Haunted House
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Haunted House » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pm

James Y wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:22 pm
Evil D wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:55 am
I have an ongoing thread about some hard use testing on a SE Caribbean that has shown me enough to trust LC's toughness to a point where I feel that debating it against H1 is a moot point because it's plenty tough enough for folder use. There is likely a point where H1 is tougher but to reach that point you're doing stupid things with your knife.
I remember that thread, and felt impressed by what you posted. Yet I've still seen others post that between H1 and LC200N, H1 is superior in SE, and LC is only better in PE. My impression from your thread was that SE LC was at least comparable to SE H1. I could be wrong, but those were the impressions I took away from that.

Jim
Could you please share a link to where people have tested SE LC200N vs SE H1?
I can’t find any testing with the serrated versions being tested head to head.
I’ve found multiple posts & threads asking the question, but no one who’s actually tested them.
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby jalcon » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:22 pm

LC200N PM2


Pleeeeeease

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Evil D
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Evil D » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:48 pm

Haunted House wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pm
Could you please share a link to where people have tested SE LC200N vs SE H1?
I can’t find any testing with the serrated versions being tested head to head.
I’ve found multiple posts & threads asking the question, but no one who’s actually tested them.
Top
jalcon
Not so much a head to head since I don't have an H1 knife that's close enough to compare it to but it does have at least one hard cutting task that was done with both steels and the damage was comparable.

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Enactive
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Re: Production LC200N

Postby Enactive » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:52 pm

One of the tricky bits with testing serrated knives is controlling for geometry. There is a broad range of geometry among SE grinds.

The chisel grind of SE, often gives them a narrower edge grind than a similar PE with V grind. Of course the scallops themselves and blade shape/ geometry etc are huge variables. IIRC Sal has shared something about most steels have a 2:1 ratio SE:PE in the CATRA testing, but H1 has about 4:1.

I still don't have any H1 (yet), thought love my LC200N in the Native and Chef and aim to get an SE Native Salt sooner than later. It holds up great for all my wetter uses and it sharpens brilliantly. It isn't as strong as Cruwear, but that's why i have those knives.

Thanks Sal (and family and Co.) for all the great steels! I am getting antsy for a K390 Stretch 2 with a drop point! :spyder: :cool:

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby TomAiello » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:59 pm

ctrikard wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:47 am
What does everyone think of replacing s30v with lc200n?
Definitely against that. s30v and lc200n fill different niches for me. I prefer s30v for EDC, as it holds an edge better than s30v for me.

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Re: Production LC200N

Postby The Deacon » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:03 pm

To me, the biggest advantage LC200N has over H-1 is that it can be full flat ground in a production knife. I'm really enjoying my Autonomy 2 and I'd love to see a PE FFG Autonomy 1. :) It may never happen, but LC200N at least makes it possible.
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