Philosophy of locks

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.

How important is lock strength to YOU?

Somewhat important
46
59%
Not at all
5
6%
Very
21
27%
Wait, you guys use locking knives?!
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78

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Ankerson
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#61

Post by Ankerson »

For me as long as the lock works properly and is reliable it's fine.

For really hard use, lets say for things a folder really shouldn't be used for in the 1st place don't use a folder, use the proper tool for the job or a fixed blade. That's just my opinion.

That said I don't see the issue with frame locks, I have seen some that I have tried to get to fail (Strider SmF) and never could even under the most extreme abuse possible that I could muster by hand. Yeah, I beat the crap out of a $600 folder for days to prove a point in testing...

I would never do that in real life however and I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for about 10 years now. I found out what I needed to know...

A properly designed frame lock is more than strong and reliable enough for any use that a folder should be used for.
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#62

Post by James Y »

Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:19 am
For me as long as the lock works properly and is reliable it's fine.

For really hard use, lets say for things a folder really shouldn't be used for in the 1st place don't use a folder, use the proper tool for the job or a fixed blade. That's just my opinion.

That said I don't see the issue with frame locks, I have seen some that I have tried to get to fail (Strider SmF) and never could even under the most extreme abuse possible that I could muster by hand. Yeah, I beat the crap out of a $600 folder for days to prove a point in testing...

I would never do that in real life however and I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for about 10 years now. I found out what I needed to know...

A properly designed frame lock is more than strong and reliable enough for any use that a folder should be used for.
I’ve never even come close to having one of my CRK framelocks closing on me, in spite of what the CS lock strength tests would have people believe. In fact, my oldest one bought new 18 years ago has gotten a lot of not-so-nice use over the years, and except for the obvious “snail trails” on the titanium scales, and the blade having been sharpened down some, its frame lock still locks up tightly and securely at the same spot on the mating surface that it did when new. It has never slipped nor ever started to unlock during use.

Jim
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#63

Post by Ankerson »

James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:57 am
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:19 am
For me as long as the lock works properly and is reliable it's fine.

For really hard use, lets say for things a folder really shouldn't be used for in the 1st place don't use a folder, use the proper tool for the job or a fixed blade. That's just my opinion.

That said I don't see the issue with frame locks, I have seen some that I have tried to get to fail (Strider SmF) and never could even under the most extreme abuse possible that I could muster by hand. Yeah, I beat the crap out of a $600 folder for days to prove a point in testing...

I would never do that in real life however and I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for about 10 years now. I found out what I needed to know...

A properly designed frame lock is more than strong and reliable enough for any use that a folder should be used for.
I’ve never even come close to having one of my CRK framelocks closing on me, in spite of what the CS lock strength tests would have people believe. In fact, my oldest one bought new 18 years ago has gotten a lot of not-so-nice use over the years, and except for the obvious “snail trails” on the titanium scales, and the blade having been sharpened down some, its frame lock still locks up tightly and securely at the same spot on the mating surface that it did when new. It’s never even started to unlock during use.

Jim

Jim,

I like my CRK's too. :cool:

Never had one fail etc on me either. :)

I carry a CRK LRG INKOSI as my EDC normally.

Jim
James Y
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#64

Post by James Y »

Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:01 am
James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:57 am
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:19 am
For me as long as the lock works properly and is reliable it's fine.

For really hard use, lets say for things a folder really shouldn't be used for in the 1st place don't use a folder, use the proper tool for the job or a fixed blade. That's just my opinion.

That said I don't see the issue with frame locks, I have seen some that I have tried to get to fail (Strider SmF) and never could even under the most extreme abuse possible that I could muster by hand. Yeah, I beat the crap out of a $600 folder for days to prove a point in testing...

I would never do that in real life however and I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for about 10 years now. I found out what I needed to know...

A properly designed frame lock is more than strong and reliable enough for any use that a folder should be used for.
I’ve never even come close to having one of my CRK framelocks closing on me, in spite of what the CS lock strength tests would have people believe. In fact, my oldest one bought new 18 years ago has gotten a lot of not-so-nice use over the years, and except for the obvious “snail trails” on the titanium scales, and the blade having been sharpened down some, its frame lock still locks up tightly and securely at the same spot on the mating surface that it did when new. It’s never even started to unlock during use.

Jim

Jim,

I like my CRK's too. :cool:

Never had one fail etc on me either. :)

I carry a CRK LRG INKOSI as my EDC normally.

Jim
Hi, Jim. IIRC, I recall seeing a cool video of you many years ago test-cutting with an Insingo.

Jim
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#65

Post by Ankerson »

James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:13 am
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:01 am
James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:57 am
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:19 am
For me as long as the lock works properly and is reliable it's fine.

For really hard use, lets say for things a folder really shouldn't be used for in the 1st place don't use a folder, use the proper tool for the job or a fixed blade. That's just my opinion.

That said I don't see the issue with frame locks, I have seen some that I have tried to get to fail (Strider SmF) and never could even under the most extreme abuse possible that I could muster by hand. Yeah, I beat the crap out of a $600 folder for days to prove a point in testing...

I would never do that in real life however and I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for about 10 years now. I found out what I needed to know...

A properly designed frame lock is more than strong and reliable enough for any use that a folder should be used for.
I’ve never even come close to having one of my CRK framelocks closing on me, in spite of what the CS lock strength tests would have people believe. In fact, my oldest one bought new 18 years ago has gotten a lot of not-so-nice use over the years, and except for the obvious “snail trails” on the titanium scales, and the blade having been sharpened down some, its frame lock still locks up tightly and securely at the same spot on the mating surface that it did when new. It’s never even started to unlock during use.

Jim

Jim,

I like my CRK's too. :cool:

Never had one fail etc on me either. :)

I carry a CRK LRG INKOSI as my EDC normally.

Jim
Hi, Jim. IIRC, I recall seeing a cool video of you many years ago test-cutting with an Insingo.

Jim
Jim

ZAAN maybe?

Tested the ZAAN and the 25.... Sold the 25 and got the INKOSI to replace it. Pretty much the same knife, but with small changes.

I normally keep one CRK around that I EDC.

Jim
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#66

Post by James Y »

Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:22 am
James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:13 am
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:01 am
James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:57 am


I’ve never even come close to having one of my CRK framelocks closing on me, in spite of what the CS lock strength tests would have people believe. In fact, my oldest one bought new 18 years ago has gotten a lot of not-so-nice use over the years, and except for the obvious “snail trails” on the titanium scales, and the blade having been sharpened down some, its frame lock still locks up tightly and securely at the same spot on the mating surface that it did when new. It’s never even started to unlock during use.

Jim

Jim,

I like my CRK's too. :cool:

Never had one fail etc on me either. :)

I carry a CRK LRG INKOSI as my EDC normally.

Jim
Hi, Jim. IIRC, I recall seeing a cool video of you many years ago test-cutting with an Insingo.

Jim
Jim

ZAAN maybe?

Tested the ZAAN and the 25.... Sold the 25 and got the INKOSI to replace it. Pretty much the same knife, but with small changes.

I normally keep one CRK around that I EDC.

Jim
That could have been it. Been thinking of saving up for a large Inkosi for years now, but you know how that goes. ;)

And just to show that we aren’t totally hijacking this thread...so far, I’ve never owned nor handled a Spyderco framelock, so I can’t make a comparison there.

Jim
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Ankerson
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#67

Post by Ankerson »

James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:33 am
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:22 am
James Y wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:13 am
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:01 am



Jim,

I like my CRK's too. :cool:

Never had one fail etc on me either. :)

I carry a CRK LRG INKOSI as my EDC normally.

Jim
Hi, Jim. IIRC, I recall seeing a cool video of you many years ago test-cutting with an Insingo.

Jim
Jim

ZAAN maybe?

Tested the ZAAN and the 25.... Sold the 25 and got the INKOSI to replace it. Pretty much the same knife, but with small changes.

I normally keep one CRK around that I EDC.

Jim
That could have been it. Been thinking of saving up for a large Inkosi for years now, but you know how that goes. ;)

And just to show that we aren’t totally hijacking this thread...so far, I’ve never owned nor handled a Spyderco framelock.

Jim

Jim,

Had a few and they seemed fine to me. :spyder:

Never did get my hands on the Military though, the fancy Ti Frame lock. :(

Jim
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Tucson Tom
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#68

Post by Tucson Tom »

Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:19 am
For me as long as the lock works properly and is reliable it's fine.

For really hard use, lets say for things a folder really shouldn't be used for in the 1st place don't use a folder, use the proper tool for the job or a fixed blade. That's just my opinion.

That said I don't see the issue with frame locks, I have seen some that I have tried to get to fail (Strider SmF) and never could even under the most extreme abuse possible that I could muster by hand. Yeah, I beat the crap out of a $600 folder for days to prove a point in testing...

I would never do that in real life however and I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for about 10 years now. I found out what I needed to know...

A properly designed frame lock is more than strong and reliable enough for any use that a folder should be used for.
This certainly sums up my point of view. Any lock made by a decent company (take Spyderco for an example) is more than adequate for anything I will ever do. I have no worries whatsoever about a Spyderco liner lock (such as my military for example), despite all the fuss and noise that people make about liner locks. Frame locks are just a variant of liner locks. People that have had a gas station liner lock fail on them shouldn't blame the lock type.

As for batoning -- no I never have ever done any batoning of wood for fire starting. If I lived or was hiking someplace wet and anticipated a need to do batoning I would carry a fixed blade. I have any number of choices that would be reasonable to carry backpacking with the addition of only a few ounces. My Spyderco Junction is the first thing that comes to mind for some reason.
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#69

Post by Ankerson »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:58 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:19 am
For me as long as the lock works properly and is reliable it's fine.

For really hard use, lets say for things a folder really shouldn't be used for in the 1st place don't use a folder, use the proper tool for the job or a fixed blade. That's just my opinion.

That said I don't see the issue with frame locks, I have seen some that I have tried to get to fail (Strider SmF) and never could even under the most extreme abuse possible that I could muster by hand. Yeah, I beat the crap out of a $600 folder for days to prove a point in testing...

I would never do that in real life however and I don't do that type of testing anymore and haven't for about 10 years now. I found out what I needed to know...

A properly designed frame lock is more than strong and reliable enough for any use that a folder should be used for.
This certainly sums up my point of view. Any lock made by a decent company (take Spyderco for an example) is more than adequate for anything I will ever do. I have no worries whatsoever about a Spyderco liner lock (such as my military for example), despite all the fuss and noise that people make about liner locks. Frame locks are just a variant of liner locks. People that have had a gas station liner lock fail on them shouldn't blame the lock type.

As for batoning -- no I never have ever done any batoning of wood for fire starting. If I lived or was hiking someplace wet and anticipated a need to do batoning I would carry a fixed blade. I have any number of choices that would be reasonable to carry backpacking with the addition of only a few ounces. My Spyderco Junction is the first thing that comes to mind for some reason.


Yeah, if one was going into the field the only folder I might take would be an SAK, but I would have a fixed blade as the primary knife/tool.

I don't remember ever taking a folder into the field other than an SAK, not even once.

An SAK for the other type tools, not so much as a knife.
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#70

Post by Tucson Tom »

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:30 am

Tom, just courious and with all respect: You never saw any advantage in batoning in order to produce material for firestarting or making firewood generally?
Here is deal with me and fires. I just don't have fires often when I am backpacking. My favorite place is Sequoia - Kings Canyon (SEKI) in Callifornia. In over 100 days backpacking there I have only had fires once or twice. There are two reasons. One is that I don't find fires all that useful. They make my pots black, my gear smell like smoke, throw sparks that burn holes in stuff. So I carry a stove. Fast, simple and effective. The other is that regulations in the park prohibit fires above 10,000 feet and I am virtually always camping above 10,000 feet.

In Arizona, you are right, there is rarely a problem finding dry wood, and even then I don't often have a fire due to reasons cited above. But sometimes a fire seems to be just the thing mostly for social reasons. I am not rigid about avoiding fires, and they could be invaluable in an emergency, but experience, proper equipment, and good planning can avoid most so called emergencies.

So, batoning has really never been something I think about when selecting a knife to carry. My usual backpacking knife is my S90V Native 5.
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#71

Post by Wartstein »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:32 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:30 am

Tom, just courious and with all respect: You never saw any advantage in batoning in order to produce material for firestarting or making firewood generally?
Here is deal with me and fires. I just don't have fires often when I am backpacking. My favorite place is Sequoia - Kings Canyon (SEKI) in Callifornia. In over 100 days backpacking there I have only had fires once or twice. There are two reasons. One is that I don't find fires all that useful. They make my pots black, my gear smell like smoke, throw sparks that burn holes in stuff. So I carry a stove. Fast, simple and effective. The other is that regulations in the park prohibit fires above 10,000 feet and I am virtually always camping above 10,000 feet.

In Arizona, you are right, there is rarely a problem finding dry wood, and even then I don't often have a fire due to reasons cited above. But sometimes a fire seems to be just the thing mostly for social reasons. I am not rigid about avoiding fires, and they could be invaluable in an emergency, but experience, proper equipment, and good planning can avoid most so called emergencies.

So, batoning has really never been something I think about when selecting a knife to carry. My usual backpacking knife is my S90V Native 5.

Thanks, Tom, I understand! :)

Don´t want to derail this thread, so just briefly:
- Where I live, fire is not only for cooking, but often times even more so for warmth (and if established already, functions as a "cooking device" either)
- Additionally, in many remote, very primitive mountain (winter!) shelters there ARE already also very primitive wood stoves, but just often times wet and damp pieces of wood - batoning is a must
- Sometimes I carry a very, very small folding kind of "Hobo" (wood-) stove instead of a gas stove - just enough for heating water, but for doing so I absolutely need to produce small kindling

PS: I think I´d really like to visit the places you talk about in your reply! Must be great backpacking there.
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#72

Post by Tucson Tom »

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:44 pm

- Sometimes I carry a very, very small folding kind of "Hobo" (wood-) stove instead of a gas stove - just enough for heating water, but for doing so I absolutely need to produce small kindling

PS: I think I´d really like to visit the places you talk about in your reply! Must be great backpacking there.
I hope you get a chance to!! It is fantastic. And despite continuing to derail the thread, I'll mention that I have a "hobo stove" myself
and have had fun with it. It is called a "Bush Buddy" and is/was made by a guy in remote Alaska. But I would typically still be fooling
with it while my buddies with gas stoves were eating their dinner and watching me. More fun than function, but plenty of both.

As for knife locks -- this thread has me thinking of two things. One is to dig my Junction out of the drawer and carry and enjoy it in the
near future. The other is to purchase a nice slip joint knife of some kind and carry it, just to "round myself out" so to speak.
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#73

Post by Joshua J. »

I don't know if culture has shifted but last I checked a few years ago people couldn't get enough of aesthetically overbuilt locks that didn't particularly work very well (mostly framelocks).

The Tuff is what I consider the ultimate example of how misunderstood the subject usually is.
First we were going to get a Compression Lock, then the next prototype had a very short and stiff Framelock, still very strong but maybe better wearing than the often sticky Compression Lock. Then the final product had a normal framelock and was quickly tested to failure and my impression is given the knife only lasted about a year on the market people didn't like it because of the mismatch of the name and real world lock strength, while at the same time people complain bitterly any time the lock is too stiff (IIRC the Sebenza recently went through a stiff lock phase after some infamous user testing, CRK made the lock stronger in response, and the collectors started complaining and seeking out older and less secure models).
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#74

Post by curlyhairedboy »

oh my goodness, i had no idea the Tuff was proposed with a comp lock. That definitely would have put it more on my radar....
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#75

Post by Woodpuppy »

Joshua J. wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:13 am
I don't know if culture has shifted but last I checked a few years ago people couldn't get enough of aesthetically overbuilt locks that didn't particularly work very well (mostly framelocks).

The Tuff is what I consider the ultimate example of how misunderstood the subject usually is.
First we were going to get a Compression Lock, then the next prototype had a very short and stiff Framelock, still very strong but maybe better wearing than the often sticky Compression Lock. Then the final product had a normal framelock and was quickly tested to failure and my impression is given the knife only lasted about a year on the market people didn't like it because of the mismatch of the name and real world lock strength, while at the same time people complain bitterly any time the lock is too stiff (IIRC the Sebenza recently went through a stiff lock phase after some infamous user testing, CRK made the lock stronger in response, and the collectors started complaining and seeking out older and less secure models).
You can please some of the people some of the time...
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Re: Philosophy of locks

#76

Post by Naperville »

I buy mostly fixed blades. I do not buy a lot of folders, but when I do, I consider lock type as one of the main attributes. I prefer back lock or compression lock, but will also buy a frame lock. The frame lock is the weakest lock type that I buy, in my opinion. I do not buy other lock types if at all possible. I think that I have one liner lock, a Spyderco Military, and I do not like that lock. If the Military comes out in a back lock with excellent blade steel, I'll buy a second.

I had a frame lock fail on me once. It was a Zero Tolerance 0450FCZDP with a ZDP 189 blade. It's a really fantastic little knife, but it bit me. On Blade Forums they were talking about ZT lock failures, and then I ordered the sprint run (pretty rare for me)...and I applied the most insignificant amount of pressure on the back of the knife and it folded as if there was nothing holding it in a locked position. I sent it back to ZT to be fixed and they did not do that great of a job on the lock issue, but I decided to hang on to it for a week and see if I could break it in. THAT WORKED! I still have the knife, and the lock has never failed on me again. All that I did was really slam the opening hard on the flipper tab. That was all that it needed.

I've got a lot of knives here and that was the only time that a lock failed.
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