Newbie steel question.

[JuPaul]

It has been known by metallurgists for several decades that 1095 and O1 have average-at-best toughness. It is not due to carbides but rather poor "matrix toughness," presumably due to high carbon in solution and plate martensite. I haven't seen much explanation on that one, probably not considered interesting enough to evaluate. The old tool steels books from Gill and Roberts, for example, rate O1 a "3" for toughness, which is above D2 at a "2", but equal to steels like M2 and T1 which are also given a 3, and lower than A2 which gets a "4."

As to how much chromium is required to reduce toughness, chromium itself does not inherently reduce toughness. The 13% Cr AEB-L is evidence of that. With enough carbon and chromium together, large carbides form which are deleterious to toughness.

Larrin,

Knowing doesn't matter and they don't care who you are or what you are.

1095 is THE STEEL...

Just ask 100 people, 99 of them will say so. :rolleyes:

It's pretty much impossible to undo urban legends, you could stand right next to them and show them. The main issue is the knives in 1095 are cheap, combine that with all the hype and BS over the decades.

Anything cheap is better, never say anything against anything that is cheap, they will never believe you. They will viscously defend their cheap knives no matter what.

Jim

It's definitely obvious that 1095 is cheap and readily available, and widely in use for fixed blades. So, are there better preforming steels (higher toughness and strength at a higher hardness) that are equally cheap and available that could fill the same fixed blade niche? Honest question - just curious.

[Ankerson]

It has been known by metallurgists for several decades that 1095 and O1 have average-at-best toughness. It is not due to carbides but rather poor "matrix toughness," presumably due to high carbon in solution and plate martensite. I haven't seen much explanation on that one, probably not considered interesting enough to evaluate. The old tool steels books from Gill and Roberts, for example, rate O1 a "3" for toughness, which is above D2 at a "2", but equal to steels like M2 and T1 which are also given a 3, and lower than A2 which gets a "4."

As to how much chromium is required to reduce toughness, chromium itself does not inherently reduce toughness. The 13% Cr AEB-L is evidence of that. With enough carbon and chromium together, large carbides form which are deleterious to toughness.

Larrin,

Knowing doesn't matter and they don't care who you are or what you are.

1095 is THE STEEL...

Just ask 100 people, 99 of them will say so. :rolleyes:

It's pretty much impossible to undo urban legends, you could stand right next to them and show them. The main issue is the knives in 1095 are cheap, combine that with all the hype and BS over the decades.

Anything cheap is better, never say anything against anything that is cheap, they will never believe you. They will viscously defend their cheap knives no matter what.

Jim

It's definitely obvious that 1095 is cheap and readily available, and widely in use for fixed blades. So, are there better preforming steels (higher toughness and strength at a higher hardness) that are equally cheap and available that could fill the same fixed blade niche? Honest question - just curious.

Take away cheap and I could name a list of them.

Price non withstanding I would take A2, still not all that expensive and makes an excellent knife blade.

I remember an excellent well known knife maker telling me years ago that all you need really is A2 and CPM 154. They cover the whole spectrum of needs for knife blades.

It's all kind of like what I see all the time on the Photography groups. Someone spends $3000 on a camera body then in the same post is going to put some cheap entry level kit lens on it. Might as well just take the camera and throw it in the trash if that's what they are going to do or used that $3,000 for something else. They are thinking backwards, the lenses are the most important thing, not the camera body.

Or putting $3,000 worth of stereo equipment in a $200 car.

Or Putting $2,000 wheels on that same $200 car.

Or putting $20 tires on a Ferrari...

[Enactive]

That's why they can sell all of those lawnmower blades with prybar geometry and European gas station knives like crazy.

Jim

I've heard you disparaging 1095 as "lawnmower blade steel" and have heard of and seen "gas station knives."

Never heard of your "European gas station knives" but they sound like a possible upgrade on the regular ones. :p

[Ankerson]

That's why they can sell all of those lawnmower blades with prybar geometry and European gas station knives like crazy.

Jim

I've heard you disparaging 1095 as "lawnmower blade steel" and have heard of and seen "gas station knives."

Never heard of your "European gas station knives" but they sound like a possible upgrade on the regular ones. :p

Yeah.. LOL :D

I despise 1095 and always have now for about 40 years. But as I said I owned a lot of knives in 1095, buy the knife for the design, not the steel. Would those knives have been even better in another steel? Yes they would have, but they still worked as they should have due to the design so.

Some things in the knife world just really don't make a lot of since.

But people will do what they want as they always have. :)

I have never been one to tell people what they want to hear.

I will either tell them the truth or won't say anything depending.

[JuPaul]

It has been known by metallurgists for several decades that 1095 and O1 have average-at-best toughness. It is not due to carbides but rather poor "matrix toughness," presumably due to high carbon in solution and plate martensite. I haven't seen much explanation on that one, probably not considered interesting enough to evaluate. The old tool steels books from Gill and Roberts, for example, rate O1 a "3" for toughness, which is above D2 at a "2", but equal to steels like M2 and T1 which are also given a 3, and lower than A2 which gets a "4."

As to how much chromium is required to reduce toughness, chromium itself does not inherently reduce toughness. The 13% Cr AEB-L is evidence of that. With enough carbon and chromium together, large carbides form which are deleterious to toughness.

Larrin,

Knowing doesn't matter and they don't care who you are or what you are.

1095 is THE STEEL...

Just ask 100 people, 99 of them will say so. :rolleyes:

It's pretty much impossible to undo urban legends, you could stand right next to them and show them. The main issue is the knives in 1095 are cheap, combine that with all the hype and BS over the decades.

Anything cheap is better, never say anything against anything that is cheap, they will never believe you. They will viscously defend their cheap knives no matter what.

Jim

It's definitely obvious that 1095 is cheap and readily available, and widely in use for fixed blades. So, are there better preforming steels (higher toughness and strength at a higher hardness) that are equally cheap and available that could fill the same fixed blade niche? Honest question - just curious.

Take away cheap and I could name a list of them.

Price non withstanding I would take A2, still not all that expensive and makes an excellent knife blade.

I remember an excellent well known knife maker telling me years ago that all you need really is A2 and CPM 154. They cover the whole spectrum of needs for knife blades.

It's all kind of like what I see all the time on the Photography groups. Someone spends $3000 on a camera body then in the same post is going to put some cheap entry level kit lens on it. Might as well just take the camera and throw it in the trash if that's what they are going to do or used that $3,000 for something else. They are thinking backwards, the lenses are the most important thing, not the camera body.

Or putting $3,000 worth of stereo equipment in a $200 car.

Or Putting $2,000 wheels on that same $200 car.

Or putting $20 tires on a Ferrari...

So, on Larrin's charts it lookslike A2 has about a 13 ft-lbs toughness rating at 61hrc, vs about 8 ft-lbs for 1095 at the same hardness. Not a drastic improvement. Does A2 offer other advantages in terms of strength, etc? Again, not trying to be argumentative, I just want to learn. Why A2 rather than something like CPM cruwear, or 52100, which are significantly tougher at equal or higher hardness? Is A2 much cheaper or more available?

[Ankerson]

Larrin,

Knowing doesn't matter and they don't care who you are or what you are.

1095 is THE STEEL...

Just ask 100 people, 99 of them will say so. :rolleyes:

It's pretty much impossible to undo urban legends, you could stand right next to them and show them. The main issue is the knives in 1095 are cheap, combine that with all the hype and BS over the decades.

Anything cheap is better, never say anything against anything that is cheap, they will never believe you. They will viscously defend their cheap knives no matter what.

Jim

It's definitely obvious that 1095 is cheap and readily available, and widely in use for fixed blades. So, are there better preforming steels (higher toughness and strength at a higher hardness) that are equally cheap and available that could fill the same fixed blade niche? Honest question - just curious.

Take away cheap and I could name a list of them.

Price non withstanding I would take A2, still not all that expensive and makes an excellent knife blade.

I remember an excellent well known knife maker telling me years ago that all you need really is A2 and CPM 154. They cover the whole spectrum of needs for knife blades.

It's all kind of like what I see all the time on the Photography groups. Someone spends $3000 on a camera body then in the same post is going to put some cheap entry level kit lens on it. Might as well just take the camera and throw it in the trash if that's what they are going to do or used that $3,000 for something else. They are thinking backwards, the lenses are the most important thing, not the camera body.

Or putting $3,000 worth of stereo equipment in a $200 car.

Or Putting $2,000 wheels on that same $200 car.

Or putting $20 tires on a Ferrari...

So, on Larrin's charts it lookslike A2 has about a 13 ft-lbs toughness rating at 61hrc, vs about 8 ft-lbs for 1095 at the same hardness. Not a drastic improvement. Does A2 offer other advantages in terms of strength, etc? Again, not trying to be argumentative, I just want to learn. Why A2 rather than something like CPM cruwear, or 52100, which are significantly tougher at equal or higher hardness? Is A2 much cheaper or more available?

A2 is better balanced for knife blades than say 52100 is, better edge retention along with the other attributes. It's all give and take, to get one thing you have to give up something else. 52100 is a great blade steel though especially for very large blades. Although 1080 and L6 are better for swords however.

Cruwear would be better yet.

Reason for A2 is that it's doesn't cost all that much so you have a solid blade steel to cater to people who don't have a lot of money to spend. While CPM 154 would be for the higher end blades, a lot of people just don't know how good CPM 154 really is unless they have custom knives in it.

The beauty of the PM steels is that they turned the knife steel market upside down when compared to the older IGNOT steels.

Larrin could explain that one better than I ever could.

[JuPaul]

It's definitely obvious that 1095 is cheap and readily available, and widely in use for fixed blades. So, are there better preforming steels (higher toughness and strength at a higher hardness) that are equally cheap and available that could fill the same fixed blade niche? Honest question - just curious.

Take away cheap and I could name a list of them.

Price non withstanding I would take A2, still not all that expensive and makes an excellent knife blade.

I remember an excellent well known knife maker telling me years ago that all you need really is A2 and CPM 154. They cover the whole spectrum of needs for knife blades.

It's all kind of like what I see all the time on the Photography groups. Someone spends $3000 on a camera body then in the same post is going to put some cheap entry level kit lens on it. Might as well just take the camera and throw it in the trash if that's what they are going to do or used that $3,000 for something else. They are thinking backwards, the lenses are the most important thing, not the camera body.

Or putting $3,000 worth of stereo equipment in a $200 car.

Or Putting $2,000 wheels on that same $200 car.

Or putting $20 tires on a Ferrari...

So, on Larrin's charts it lookslike A2 has about a 13 ft-lbs toughness rating at 61hrc, vs about 8 ft-lbs for 1095 at the same hardness. Not a drastic improvement. Does A2 offer other advantages in terms of strength, etc? Again, not trying to be argumentative, I just want to learn. Why A2 rather than something like CPM cruwear, or 52100, which are significantly tougher at equal or higher hardness? Is A2 much cheaper or more available?

A2 is better balanced for knife blades than say 52100 is, better edge retention along with the other attributes. It's all give and take, to get one thing you have to give up something else. 52100 is a great blade steel though especially for very large blades. Although 1080 and L6 are better for swords however.

Cruwear would be better yet.

Reason for A2 is that it's doesn't cost all that much so you have a solid blade steel to cater to people who don't have a lot of money to spend. While CPM 154 would be for the higher end blades, a lot of people just don't know how good CPM 154 really is unless they have custom knives in it.

The beauty of the PM steels is that they turned the knife steel market upside down when compared to the older IGNOT steels.

Larrin could explain that one better than I ever could.

Thanks for the explanations! I have fixed blades in 1095 because that's what's readily available in the price range I'm comfortable spending on a beater fixed blade...perhaps it's time to look deeper before any new purchases!

[Ankerson]

Take away cheap and I could name a list of them.

Price non withstanding I would take A2, still not all that expensive and makes an excellent knife blade.

I remember an excellent well known knife maker telling me years ago that all you need really is A2 and CPM 154. They cover the whole spectrum of needs for knife blades.

It's all kind of like what I see all the time on the Photography groups. Someone spends $3000 on a camera body then in the same post is going to put some cheap entry level kit lens on it. Might as well just take the camera and throw it in the trash if that's what they are going to do or used that $3,000 for something else. They are thinking backwards, the lenses are the most important thing, not the camera body.

Or putting $3,000 worth of stereo equipment in a $200 car.

Or Putting $2,000 wheels on that same $200 car.

Or putting $20 tires on a Ferrari...

So, on Larrin's charts it lookslike A2 has about a 13 ft-lbs toughness rating at 61hrc, vs about 8 ft-lbs for 1095 at the same hardness. Not a drastic improvement. Does A2 offer other advantages in terms of strength, etc? Again, not trying to be argumentative, I just want to learn. Why A2 rather than something like CPM cruwear, or 52100, which are significantly tougher at equal or higher hardness? Is A2 much cheaper or more available?

A2 is better balanced for knife blades than say 52100 is, better edge retention along with the other attributes. It's all give and take, to get one thing you have to give up something else. 52100 is a great blade steel though especially for very large blades. Although 1080 and L6 are better for swords however.

Cruwear would be better yet.

Reason for A2 is that it's doesn't cost all that much so you have a solid blade steel to cater to people who don't have a lot of money to spend. While CPM 154 would be for the higher end blades, a lot of people just don't know how good CPM 154 really is unless they have custom knives in it.

The beauty of the PM steels is that they turned the knife steel market upside down when compared to the older IGNOT steels.

Larrin could explain that one better than I ever could.

Thanks for the explanations! I have fixed blades in 1095 because that's what's readily available in the price range I'm comfortable spending on a beater fixed blade...perhaps it's time to look deeper before any new purchases!

I doubt that anyone is going to tell you how to spend your money, nor should they ever.

Get what you like and at the rate you are comfortable with, nobody can fault you for that. :)

Knives are really a personal thing and everyone is different.

Not everyone has $400 or more to spend on a knife, they are just knives in the end. :)

[JacksonKnives]

I'm not going to say that 1095 is my favorite steel to work with or that I seek out knives made with it, but it's a good steel in the right application.

If you ask kitchen knife enthusiasts what the difference is between 1095 and #1 #2 White from Hitachi, they'll tell you that the Japanese steel is cleaner and more refined and thus can hold an amazing edge for a very long time, while "1095 will bend and buckle because it is softer." (That's a direct quote from someone who should know better.) Some people are easily fooled by "magic" knives.
[Edit: forgot to double-check the Hitachi number, #1 is higher carbon, closer to W2.]

The source of the steel matters, too. Reliable knives come from a maker who can get a reliable source. If your L6 bainite katana is actually made from a 15n20 saw blade, or worse if you don't have a way to verify the result of your heat treat sword dance one way or the other, then it's all just a gimmick.

It's all on a sliding scale. You can make excellent knives out of old leaf springs, but if you're going to invest in setting up a shop you need better control of your materials. I don't turn up my nose at hobbyist chef knives made out of farriers' rasps, but I do ask a lot of questions if you're making them by the dozen and selling for $800 a piece.

[Ankerson]

I'm not going to say that 1095 is my favorite steel to work with or that I seek out knives made with it, but it's a good steel in the right application.

If you ask kitchen knife enthusiasts what the difference is between 1095 and #1 White from Hitachi, they'll tell you that the Japanese steel is cleaner and more refined and thus can hold an amazing edge for a very long time, while "1095 will bend and buckle because it is softer." (That's a direct quote from someone who should know better.) Some people are easily fooled by "magic" knives.

The source of the steel matters, too. Reliable knives come from a maker who can get a reliable source. If your L6 bainite katana is actually made from a 15n20 saw blade, or worse if you don't have a way to verify the result of your heat treat sword dance one way or the other, then it's all just a gimmick.

It's all on a sliding scale. You can make excellent knives out of old leaf springs, but if you're going to invest in setting up a shop you need better control of your materials. I don't turn up my nose at hobbyist chef knives made out of farriers' rasps, but I do ask a lot of questions if you're making them by the dozen and selling for $800 a piece.

I stay very far away from any kitchen knife forum for those very reasons. There is just no way I could hold back for very long on one. :D :eek:

There are a lot of gimmicks in the knife industry, or a better word would be marketing.

Most of it is nothing more than snake oil feed off of urban legends in the end. Those urban legends are the reason why I started testing knives in the 1st place. I already knew most of them were boloney from my own uses before I even started and was nothing more than a dumb 17 YO Jarhead using knives in the field.

There are no magic heat treatments that will turn pot metal into something else Soto speak.

The heat treatments are supposed to be done correctly in the 1st place for the steel and the knife.

No gimmick there.

[JacksonKnives]

There are no magic heat treatments that will turn pot metal into something else Soto speak.

For sure, but I think that's the kind of statement that gets us into trouble. We (not unlike the kitchen knife guys ) are chasing iterative process improvements that lead to slightly better performance over what we had ten years ago. It shouldn't ever lead us to compare steel to pot metal. An old French kitchen knife may be exceptionally soft compared to what we're used to in the Glesser kingdom, but that doesn't make them terrible knives. We should be able to educate people about real differences without insulting anyone.

[Ankerson]

There are no magic heat treatments that will turn pot metal into something else Soto speak.

For sure, but I think that's the kind of statement that gets us into trouble. We (not unlike the kitchen knife guys ) are chasing iterative process improvements that lead to slightly better performance over what we had ten years ago. It shouldn't ever lead us to compare steel to pot metal. An old French kitchen knife may be exceptionally soft compared to what we're used to in the Glesser kingdom, but that doesn't make them terrible knives. We should be able to educate people about real differences without insulting anyone.

Pot metal was just more of a general statement to make a point, wasn't about any steel.

YOU guys are supposed to be chasing performance trying to get the best out of the steels and the knives that you make. :)

It's never really just good enough, there is always better or a way you can make it better. Either by design, geometry or tweaking the HT a little to get that slight edge in performance that wasn't there before. :spyder:

It's the custom makers that really are the backbone of the knife industry and were all of the real work is done with the steels etc.

It all starts with the custom makers.

[emanuel]

Take a poll and ask the entire knife community which knives (folders only) have been the most chippy for you, s30v, or 1095?? I guarantee they will ask you what the point is of the question, and that OF COURSE S30V more prone to chipping. Most likely 100% of bladeforums (except for newcomers that have only looked at charts) will agree to this. How is a tough steel chippy? How can one say "it's more likely to fracture, but trust the chart, it's tougher"? This is what I dont understand.

I'll say just this: Pretty much all mass produced 1095 knives are hardened to 56-58HRC, folder or fixed blade, while S30V is usually in the 60-62 range. What does that mean? That for the user, in this case the average bladeforum guy, they'll see that their 1095 is 2-3 times as tough than S30V, and it is. But it's because of the hardness difference, not because of the material. Get 1095 to 60-62 and it will be just as edge chippy as S30V with identical hardness

[Ankerson]

Take a poll and ask the entire knife community which knives (folders only) have been the most chippy for you, s30v, or 1095?? I guarantee they will ask you what the point is of the question, and that OF COURSE S30V more prone to chipping. Most likely 100% of bladeforums (except for newcomers that have only looked at charts) will agree to this. How is a tough steel chippy? How can one say "it's more likely to fracture, but trust the chart, it's tougher"? This is what I dont understand.

I'll say just this: Pretty much all mass produced 1095 knives are hardened to 56-58HRC, folder or fixed blade, while S30V is usually in the 60-62 range. What does that mean? That for the user, in this case the average bladeforum guy, they'll see that their 1095 is 2-3 times as tough than S30V, and it is. But it's because of the hardness difference, not because of the material. Get 1095 to 60-62 and it will be just as edge chippy as S30V with identical hardness

Most of those 1095 Fixed blades are like .035" to .055" behind the edge and 3/16" to 5/16" blade stock with 20 DPS to 25 DPS edge geometry.

That combined with the lower hardness it doesn't matter what steel is used as long as the HT is done reasonably well as in the grain not completely blown so the blade shatters on impact.

[vivi]

Take a poll and ask the entire knife community which knives (folders only) have been the most chippy for you, s30v, or 1095?? I guarantee they will ask you what the point is of the question, and that OF COURSE S30V more prone to chipping. Most likely 100% of bladeforums (except for newcomers that have only looked at charts) will agree to this. How is a tough steel chippy? How can one say "it's more likely to fracture, but trust the chart, it's tougher"? This is what I dont understand.

I'll say just this: Pretty much all mass produced 1095 knives are hardened to 56-58HRC, folder or fixed blade, while S30V is usually in the 60-62 range. What does that mean? That for the user, in this case the average bladeforum guy, they'll see that their 1095 is 2-3 times as tough than S30V, and it is. But it's because of the hardness difference, not because of the material. Get 1095 to 60-62 and it will be just as edge chippy as S30V with identical hardness

I have some knives in a2 and 1095 at 61rc and they're very tough. Reprofiled them thin like all my other knives and they baton through wood etc.

I'm not convinced 1095 and s30v have equal toughness based on my experience with them.

I've pushed both steels to failure in multiple ways. Grinding S30V thin enough it chips out carving wood. Rolling 1095 sparking a ferro rod with the edge since the spine of that knife was rounded. Hammering 1095 through braided steel cable.

I haven't found either steel to be particularly chippy, but I found their behavior different when it comes to toughness in ways I don't think is explained away by RC # alone.

[Ankerson]

Take a poll and ask the entire knife community which knives (folders only) have been the most chippy for you, s30v, or 1095?? I guarantee they will ask you what the point is of the question, and that OF COURSE S30V more prone to chipping. Most likely 100% of bladeforums (except for newcomers that have only looked at charts) will agree to this. How is a tough steel chippy? How can one say "it's more likely to fracture, but trust the chart, it's tougher"? This is what I dont understand.

I'll say just this: Pretty much all mass produced 1095 knives are hardened to 56-58HRC, folder or fixed blade, while S30V is usually in the 60-62 range. What does that mean? That for the user, in this case the average bladeforum guy, they'll see that their 1095 is 2-3 times as tough than S30V, and it is. But it's because of the hardness difference, not because of the material. Get 1095 to 60-62 and it will be just as edge chippy as S30V with identical hardness

I have some knives in a2 and 1095 at 61rc and they're very tough. Reprofiled them thin like all my other knives and they baton through wood etc.

I'm not convinced 1095 and s30v have equal toughness based on my experience with them.

Batoning puts more stress on the ricasso of the knife, that's the part between the sharpened edge and the handle/Tang than it does the actual edge. That's why when the knives break when batoning they normally break in that area.

Since the blade is thicker than the edge is you get a separation and the edge doesn't normally hit the wood normally after the splitting starts. The sides of the blade take MOST of the friction.

[vivi]

It's a good thing you're here to tell me what a ricasso is. :rolleyes:

[Ankerson]

If a knife is to be used for a lot of batoning it really has to be designed with that purpose in mind from the start without any stress points in the ricasso/tang area and ideally full tang.

Redundant I know, but it is noteworthy anyway and needed to be pointed out.

Hidden, stick and partial tangs are not the best for this.

I have read about and seen some pretty expensive knives that have been broken or damaged batoning.

[Larrin]

A knife edge rolling does not necessarily mean the steel has high toughness. It means the steel is too soft for the applied stress.

[Ankerson]

A knife edge rolling does not necessarily mean the steel has high toughness. It means the steel is too soft for the applied stress.

Larrin,

Don't some blade smiths still make the tangs softer than the blade when they are forging to give them extra strength, toughness would be the better term I think?

I know some used to, not sure if they still do or not.

Something I was thinking about the other day, figured I would ask.


Jim