Newbie steel question.

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Bloke
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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Bloke » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:30 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:08 pm
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Second from the top looks a nice knife. ;)
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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:32 pm

Bloke wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:30 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:08 pm
Image
Second from the top looks a nice knife. ;)


Thanks man. :D :spyder:

It was just an example that fits into the discussion at hand here.

The main point is that the knives will already be in a steel for the knives intended design and use.

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:36 pm

Why is prying and strength being brought up when the question is specifically about toughness?
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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:42 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:36 pm
Why is prying and strength being brought up when the question is specifically about toughness?

They fall into the general types of knives that people generally think of when toughness is brought up.

Toughness is VASTLY overrated when taken into context on it's own.

Everything matters, strength, toughness, geometry, design etc.

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:42 pm

Larrin wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:55 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:46 pm
Funny, every 1095 knife over ever owned has more resistance to fracture than every s30v I've ever owned by a significant margin. I use my old hickory butcher's knife as a machete on hardwood. I chop trees down hitting the trunk as hard as I can. Keep in mind, this is a butcher's knife, with geometry akin to a kitchen knife. It has never even thought of chipping. I guarantee you I could chop a brick or a cinder block in half with it and the edge would not chip. I'll NEVER believe s30v could do that unless it is raw stock that hasn't been heat treated.
That’s why it is important to do specific tests and not rely on our intuition.
What were the specifics of the testing?

Are you saying s30v would make just as good of a chopper as one in 1095? All other variables the same(ish)?
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:43 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:42 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:36 pm
Why is prying and strength being brought up when the question is specifically about toughness?

They fall into the general types of knives that people generally think of when toughness is brought up.

Toughness is VASTLY overrated when taken into context on it's own.

Everything matters, strength, toughness, geometry, design etc.
I agree, but when a question is asked about toughness, I figured the answer should pertain to toughness.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:49 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:43 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:42 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:36 pm
Why is prying and strength being brought up when the question is specifically about toughness?

They fall into the general types of knives that people generally think of when toughness is brought up.

Toughness is VASTLY overrated when taken into context on it's own.

Everything matters, strength, toughness, geometry, design etc.
I agree, but when a question is asked about toughness, I figured the answer should pertain to toughness.

Too narrow really as you lose too much of everything else if you narrow in on that only.

Why Larrin was talking about S30V and 1095, they ARE actually very comparable as far as harder use blades go.

You could make a chopper out of both and they BOTH would perform about the same given all the variables were comparable.

There have been and are choppers (Large Knives) made in S30V and they do indeed perform very well.

They just cost one heck of a lot more than knives in 1095 do... The ones I am thinking about anyway...

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:04 pm

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. The general consensus on bladeforums, the knives steel composition app, and various sources online is apparently wrong. If adding 14% chromium to a steel doesn't lower the toughness (enough that a few other additives to the steel can't make up for), at what point does it? Why not 20%? Does m390 have the same toughness as 1095 also?
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
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Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:14 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:04 pm
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. The general consensus on bladeforums, the knives steel composition app, and various sources online is apparently wrong. If adding 14% chromium to a steel doesn't lower the toughness (enough that a few other additives to the steel can't make up for), at what point does it? Why not 20%? Does m390 have the same toughness as 1095 also?

Yes, a lot of it is BS and marketing and always has been. That's not going to be a popular answer, but it is what it is. ;)

I have never been a fan of 1095 as most know, I have had and used a lot of knives in it over the decades however. I carried a K-Bar for 4 years in the Marines for the most part. The knife was fine design wise for what it was, but I hated the steel with a passion. The whole time I always thought there has to be something better than this. I used other knives too in different steels and found that they were better.

It is vastly overrated and over marketed IMO.

There are just too many other choices in steels to consider that are basically better one way or another than 1095 is.

Yes it is functional as a knife steel obviously.

To make it short, yes the alloy content matters as does the difference in IGNOT and PM steels.

S30V was designed as a knife steel from the beginning so it does have all of what is really needed for a good knife blade. It is a very well balanced steel for knives.

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:21 pm

It has to be the PM process then. I knew the difference was significant but not enough to make up for that much chromium (regarding toughness). I'm still curious as to where the general maximum is for chromium in a chopper though. I'm not saying 1095 is a great steel, but I know it makes a great chopper.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:23 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:21 pm
It has to be the PM process then. I knew the difference was significant but not enough to make up for that much chromium (regarding toughness). I'm still curious as to where the general maximum is for chromium in a chopper though. I'm not saying 1095 is a great steel, but I know it makes a great chopper.

With the PM process they can add in alloys to balance out the steels better to get what they need.

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:41 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:23 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:21 pm
It has to be the PM process then. I knew the difference was significant but not enough to make up for that much chromium (regarding toughness). I'm still curious as to where the general maximum is for chromium in a chopper though. I'm not saying 1095 is a great steel, but I know it makes a great chopper.

With the PM process they can add in alloys to balance out the steels better to get what they need.
I'm aware, lol. I appreciate the posts but I was asking a specific question.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Ankerson » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:00 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:41 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:23 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:21 pm
It has to be the PM process then. I knew the difference was significant but not enough to make up for that much chromium (regarding toughness). I'm still curious as to where the general maximum is for chromium in a chopper though. I'm not saying 1095 is a great steel, but I know it makes a great chopper.

With the PM process they can add in alloys to balance out the steels better to get what they need.
I'm aware, lol. I appreciate the posts but I was asking a specific question.

There is no answer to your question. ;)

No concrete one answer fits all resolution.

There have been larger knives in M390 made also and they also perform well.

The BEST steels for choppers all around are going to be CPM M4 and CPM 4V in general.

You can for the most part go by what the Blade Sports guys use, the top guys.

If there was something better they would be using it.

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:09 am

Obviously I know 1095 isn't optimal for bladesports. This is getting to be a useless exchange.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby JacksonKnives » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:28 am

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:04 pm
If adding 14% chromium to a steel doesn't lower the toughness (enough that a few other additives to the steel can't make up for), at what point does it? Why not 20%? Does m390 have the same toughness as 1095 also?
You're begging the question. Is 1095 tough enough for a good knife? Sure. So is S30V. But that's not where you should start you scale of toughness.

Look at 52100 and L6. Then take a journey over to the stainless alloys, carbide-land, and circle back through lower-carbon simple steels. Ask manufacturing questions about what processes you can use, and how much time you can spend on them. Ask about availability (not just price, but what size and shape the stock comes in.)

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Deadboxhero » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:46 am

Larrin wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:17 pm
1095 and O1 do not have particularly high toughness. In the same range as S30V.
Image
Image
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Those Charts are looking nice and filled.

So cool to be living in a time when we have access to all this data.
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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Pelagic » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:26 am

JacksonKnives wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:28 am
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:04 pm
If adding 14% chromium to a steel doesn't lower the toughness (enough that a few other additives to the steel can't make up for), at what point does it? Why not 20%? Does m390 have the same toughness as 1095 also?
You're begging the question. Is 1095 tough enough for a good knife? Sure. So is S30V. But that's not where you should start you scale of toughness.

Look at 52100 and L6. Then take a journey over to the stainless alloys, carbide-land, and circle back through lower-carbon simple steels. Ask manufacturing questions about what processes you can use, and how much time you can spend on them. Ask about availability (not just price, but what size and shape the stock comes in.)
How am I begging that question? "tough enough for a knife" is not what the OP asked. I am talking about impact toughness only, between 1-2 steels, in regard to resistance to fracture, because this is what the OP asked about. There are many other people bringing up irrelevant points but despite possibly accidentally doing so myself, I have tried not to.

Take a poll and ask the entire knife community which knives (folders only) have been the most chippy for you, s30v, or 1095?? I guarantee they will ask you what the point is of the question, and that OF COURSE S30V more prone to chipping. Most likely 100% of bladeforums (except for newcomers that have only looked at charts) will agree to this. How is a tough steel chippy? How can one say "it's more likely to fracture, but trust the chart, it's tougher"? This is what I dont understand.

Disclaimer (anyone): Please, I don't need another post saying s30v is a good all around knife steel, or that I must love 1095 and/or think 1095 is an excellent steel for a folder. That is a complete waste of everyone's time.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Larrin » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:32 am

It has been known by metallurgists for several decades that 1095 and O1 have average-at-best toughness. It is not due to carbides but rather poor "matrix toughness," presumably due to high carbon in solution and plate martensite. I haven't seen much explanation on that one, probably not considered interesting enough to evaluate. The old tool steels books from Gill and Roberts, for example, rate O1 a "3" for toughness, which is above D2 at a "2", but equal to steels like M2 and T1 which are also given a 3, and lower than A2 which gets a "4."

As to how much chromium is required to reduce toughness, chromium itself does not inherently reduce toughness. The 13% Cr AEB-L is evidence of that. With enough carbon and chromium together, large carbides form which are deleterious to toughness.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Larrin » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:33 am

Pelagic wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:26 am
How am I begging that question? "tough enough for a knife" is not what the OP asked. I am talking about impact toughness only, between 1-2 steels, in regard to resistance to fracture, because this is what the OP asked about. There are many other people bringing up irrelevant points but despite possibly accidentally doing so myself, I have tried not to.

Take a poll and ask the entire knife community which knives (folders only) have been the most chippy for you, s30v, or 1095?? I guarantee they will ask you what the point is of the question, and that OF COURSE S30V more prone to chipping. Most likely 100% of bladeforums (except for newcomers that have only looked at charts) will agree to this. How is a tough steel chippy? How can one say "it's more likely to fracture, but trust the chart, it's tougher"? This is what I dont understand.

Disclaimer (anyone): Please, I don't need another post saying s30v is a good all around knife steel, or that I must love 1095 and/or think 1095 is an excellent steel for a folder. That is a complete waste of everyone's time.
A man uses a 1095 knife as a screwdriver, "I shouldn't have used the knife like that." A man uses S30V knife as a screwdriver, "Stainless sucks."
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives

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Re: Newbie steel question.

Postby Ankerson » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:07 am

Larrin wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:32 am
It has been known by metallurgists for several decades that 1095 and O1 have average-at-best toughness. It is not due to carbides but rather poor "matrix toughness," presumably due to high carbon in solution and plate martensite. I haven't seen much explanation on that one, probably not considered interesting enough to evaluate. The old tool steels books from Gill and Roberts, for example, rate O1 a "3" for toughness, which is above D2 at a "2", but equal to steels like M2 and T1 which are also given a 3, and lower than A2 which gets a "4."

As to how much chromium is required to reduce toughness, chromium itself does not inherently reduce toughness. The 13% Cr AEB-L is evidence of that. With enough carbon and chromium together, large carbides form which are deleterious to toughness.

Larrin,

Knowing doesn't matter and they don't care who you are or what you are. ;)

1095 is THE STEEL...

Just ask 100 people, 99 of them will say so. :rolleyes:

It's pretty much impossible to undo urban legends, you could stand right next to them and show them. The main issue is the knives in 1095 are cheap, combine that with all the hype and BS over the decades and you hit a brick wall in most peoples brains.

Anything cheap is better, never say anything against anything that is cheap, they will never believe you. They will viscously defend their cheap knives no matter what.

That's why they can sell all of those lawnmower blades with prybar geometry and European gas station knives like crazy.

Jim


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