Stretched Stretch - continued from Straight spine thread

[Evil D]

This was taken from the Bombshell thread, but thought this is an interesting question.

A 4" straight spine stretch sounds interesting, but wouldn't that be direct competition for the P4 lightweight?

Couple that question with bit of information from Sal on the upcoming Rock Jumper (highlighting is mine):

I went straight to FRN as making a G-10 run in Seki gets very expensive and the high cost hurts sales which hinders my research on a new design concept.

So we have two knives with a lot of similarities (and some important differences to be sure) and there is a mentality that newly produced knives are a form of research. Total conjecture on my part, but it could be that the model with the better sales will remain in the long-term lineup. If I had to guess, I'd say the 4" SS Stretch wins out over the P4 LW. The Stretch (especially in the SS configuration) has a lot of fans. Which is too bad because the P4 LW is an amazing knife. Or maybe I am seeing something that just isn't there. Sal has already confirmed that a K390 version of the P4 LW is in the works (I've also heard a ZDP version mentioned here and there, but I don't recall anything concrete). If there is some concern about the viability of the P4 LW in the long-term, then why commit to a sprint run? I guess that's why I browse and post here; it's fun to try and read the tea leaves of our favorite knife company.

The part you highlighted was in reference to bringing out new models in G10 from Seki as opposed to FRN. The issue is that FRN molds are quite expensive initially but cheaper in the long run, vs the more expensive (and continuing to be expensive) initial cost of G10 which for whatever reason is very expensive coming out of Japan. The knife in question (Rock Jumper) seems to me that Sal has quite a lot of confidence in the model if he's gone straight to FRN molds, as that initial cost of making the molds would be a lot to swallow if the knife gets discontinued in a year. What often happens with G10 models (made in Japan) is they're so expensive people don't buy them and so they never get feedback on what could be better (development). What's interesting to me is, if you consider what a FRN mold is, it would seem that the development is essentially already done if they've committed to making the molds, otherwise there would need to be a completely new mold made for any change to the handles, so at least the handle shape and design seem to be set in stone on this knife.

As for the 4 inch Stretch vs Police 4 thing, I'm expecting the P4 to still be a good bit larger, because that 4 inches of Stretch blade will also have ~.5 inch of finger choil in it, whereas the Police 4's blade is nearly 4.5 inches and the edge length itself is almost exactly 4 inches. I don't think there's as much competition there as it seems. If anything I would expect the Stretch XL to compete with the Endura/Endela.

[The Deacon]

What's interesting to me is, if you consider what a FRN mold is, it would seem that the development is essentially already done if they've committed to making the molds, otherwise there would need to be a completely new mold made for any change to the handles, so at least the handle shape and design seem to be set in stone on this knife.

I could be wrong, but I've inferred from comments Sal has made over the years that FRN molds can be "tweaked" to some extent. Just as it's easier to shorten the legs of a table than to make them longer, I'd imagine it's more feasible to make changes that require removal of mold material than changes that require adding material.

[Evil D]

What's interesting to me is, if you consider what a FRN mold is, it would seem that the development is essentially already done if they've committed to making the molds, otherwise there would need to be a completely new mold made for any change to the handles, so at least the handle shape and design seem to be set in stone on this knife.

I could be wrong, but I've inferred from comments Sal has made over the years that FRN molds can be "tweaked" to some extent. Just as it's easier to shorten the legs of a table than to make them longer, I'd imagine it's more feasible to make changes that require removal of mold material than changes that require adding material.

So... potentially they could make an Endura without the points on the handle without a major investment in molds. Very interesting. I wonder if changes like this could be done temporarily? Maybe someday we could see a smoothed out grip Endura sprint.

[The Deacon]

So... potentially they could make an Endura without the points on the handle without a major investment in molds. Very interesting. I wonder if changes like this could be done temporarily? Maybe someday we could see a smoothed out grip Endura sprint.

Keep in mind that, with a mold, your working with negative space. Removing material from the mold makes the mold cavity larger. So the "points" could probably be removed, but only by "filling in" the concave area between them, maybe even making it convex (like the Stretch handle) rather that by turning the handle into one large concave curve.

As for reversing the process, once again, David, think of the table legs. Making them shorter is relatively easy, but once you've done that, it's not as easy to make them longer again.

[Evil D]

So... potentially they could make an Endura without the points on the handle without a major investment in molds. Very interesting. I wonder if changes like this could be done temporarily? Maybe someday we could see a smoothed out grip Endura sprint.

Keep in mind that, with a mold, your working with negative space. Removing material from the mold makes the mold cavity larger. So the "points" could probably be removed, but only by "filling in" the concave area between them, maybe even making it convex (like the Stretch handle) rather that by turning the handle into one large concave curve.

As for reversing the process, once again, David, think of the table legs. Making them shorter is relatively easy, but once you've done that, it's not as easy to make them longer again.

Ah so he's talking more about removing material from the mold, not adding to it. To remove the points you'd either have to add material to the mold (if that's even possible) or remove material from the finger grooves to level them out with the points, making the whole grip thicker/taller. Seems unlikely to happen to an Endura but it's interesting to think about the Rock Jumper and what changes they may want to make.

[Wartstein]

This was taken from the Bombshell thread, but thought this is an interesting question.

......
As for the 4 inch Stretch vs Police 4 thing, I'm expecting the P4 to still be a good bit larger, because that 4 inches of Stretch blade will also have ~.5 inch of finger choil in it, whereas the Police 4's blade is nearly 4.5 inches and the edge length itself is almost exactly 4 inches. I don't think there's as much competition there as it seems. If anything I would expect the Stretch XL to compete with the Endura/Endela.

Perhaps the Stretch XL would compete in size with the Endura, but certainly not the Endela. The current Stretch 2 and the Endela already have almost the exact same dimensions (handle-, blade-, edge-length)...

[Wartstein]

So we have two knives with a lot of similarities (and some important differences to be sure) and there is a mentality that newly produced knives are a form of research. Total conjecture on my part, but it could be that the model with the better sales will remain in the long-term lineup. If I had to guess, I'd say the 4" SS Stretch wins out over the P4 LW. The Stretch (especially in the SS configuration) has a lot of fans. Which is too bad because the P4 LW is an amazing knife. Or maybe I am seeing something that just isn't there. Sal has already confirmed that a K390 version of the P4 LW is in the works (I've also heard a ZDP version mentioned here and there, but I don't recall anything concrete). If there is some concern about the viability of the P4 LW in the long-term, then why commit to a sprint run? I guess that's why I browse and post here; it's fun to try and read the tea leaves of our favorite knife company.

I think the XL Stretch will be quite different to the Police:

Closed a still shorter, but wider package

And when it comes to blade-/ edge profile (as said in my earlier post already):
Police blade will be less tall, have a continous curve in the edge (Stretch: Long, totally straight section), and a lot less belly right towards the tip than the Stretch blade

[The Deacon]

Ah so he's talking more about removing material from the mold, not adding to it. To remove the points you'd either have to add material to the mold (if that's even possible) or remove material from the finger grooves to level them out with the points, making the whole grip thicker/taller. Seems unlikely to happen to an Endura but it's interesting to think about the Rock Jumper and what changes they may want to make.

Exactly, and it pays to keep in mind that everything I've said is just conjecture. It's could also be that the molds for multi-piece FRN handles are a lot cheaper to make than the molds for the older one piece FRN handles. Or that the technology for mold making has changed in some way that lowers the cost considerably. Either of those things would lower the investment cost, and thus the risk. It could also be that Spyderco's economic situation has reached the point where the risk of investing $40K in a mold is more acceptable. Or it could be something else altogether.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Different strokes for different folks. That's why we make so many models and that's why we're always testing new deigns. The P4 really is a different kind of design than any of the Stretch's. It's longer, thinner and generally carried by people for a different purpose.

FYI, I have finished the first Stretched Stretch design (straight spine, 4.0" blade) and we'll be prototyping soon.

sal

Happy dance! Our boy Sal doing the heavy lifting!

[sal]

Hi Dave, Paul,

Most of what you say is correct, though molds are still an expensive investment. Usually in the $20K to $30K range. Less Expensive in China. The reason for going to the less expensive long term solution is the short term solution ( G-10 ) doesn't answer the questions I need to learn. And yes, the design that is the one best accepted by the market is the one that survives. In some cases, I'll keep a design in the options because it serves a Police or Military need, even if sales are not big.

CQI on a model is often done at Spyderco but CQI also includes creating new models that we perceive as "better" than earlier versions. Sometimes, like in the situation of the Stretch designs, I'm trying to learn about market preference. The Stretch 1 & 2, The Endela, The Harrier 2, are aiming at that 3.5" blade length that many municipalities have created as the limit for carry. Unfortunately for me, the answer to market reaction sometimes takes a long time. Also, I must admit that I like to design.

sal

[Pancake]

I have been reconsidering my knife purchasing habits lately and I am pretty sure that I am not going to buy more then 3 knives this year (still a lot). Stretched Stretch is going to be one of them.....if it comes out this year. But I can hapilly wait a bit.

I imagine it in some ranger green G10 with some nice steel, Cru-Wear? Hap-40?

[kennethsime]

There has been some discussion of a shorter stretch. Hmmm costly proposition for Spyderco. Going from the PM2 to the Para3 was easier following on the heels of a wildly successful predecessor.

I totally agree, the wild success of the PM2 made the Para 3 a natural fit.

But man, just think of a delica-sized frn with a swell, a choil, and a straight spine. I get that I'm basically describing the Para 3, but I want both. Bring on the Lil' Stretch!

Can't take a comparison pic at the moment, but the Stretch 1 (discontinued) handle actually is/was already not much longer than the Delicas (length difference closed length 0.13"). Just a lot wider. And a much longer (more handle filling) blade.

While I don't dispute your measurements, I still feel like the Stretch "feels" like a much larger knife. I'd love a 3" Stretch, especially with a Straight Spine.

[kennethsime]

I imagine it in some ranger green G10 with some nice steel, Cru-Wear? Hap-40?

YES PLEASE!!!

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Even though this was not a model I was after I am happy it looks like it took hours to sell out instead of minutes and people got their knife without a fight.

Good on you Spyderco, Good on you Blade H.Q.

Because of this behavior my next Spyderco purchase goes through Blade H.Q.

I like this!

I Support this!

Out of curiosity how many were made? Surely more than 400 to 1200.

[Wartstein]

There has been some discussion of a shorter stretch. Hmmm costly proposition for Spyderco. Going from the PM2 to the Para3 was easier following on the heels of a wildly successful predecessor.

I totally agree, the wild success of the PM2 made the Para 3 a natural fit.

But man, just think of a delica-sized frn with a swell, a choil, and a straight spine. I get that I'm basically describing the Para 3, but I want both. Bring on the Lil' Stretch!

Can't take a comparison pic at the moment, but the Stretch 1 (discontinued) handle actually is/was already not much longer than the Delicas (length difference closed length 0.13"). Just a lot wider. And a much longer (more handle filling) blade.

While I don't dispute your measurements, I still feel like the Stretch "feels" like a much larger knife. I'd love a 3" Stretch, especially with a Straight Spine.

You are right, it certainly does!! I just thought that a shorter version of the Stretch will always feel larger than a Delica, cause in order to be still a Stretch and feel like one, the handle HAS to be wider.

And again, the Stretch 1 (discontinued) handle does already NOT really differ in length to the Delica, but a lot in width - it just packs an over 3.5" blade inside that handle!

Now, if you made a Stretch any shorter than the Stretch 1 (disc.) already is/was, it imho would not be a Stretch anymore, cause you could not get that comfortable 4 finger grip behind the choil any more.
You´d basically have a locking UKPK drop point then (pic below)... (not a bad option, don´t get me wrong, but for me no longer a Stretch though it looks very much like a shrunken one)

[z4vdBt]

The Pacific Salt straight spine mod made it to EDC status. Nice and light ( 86g ).

[kennethsime]

Now, if you made a Stretch any shorter than the Stretch 1 (disc.) already is/was, it imho would not be a Stretch anymore, cause you could not get that comfortable 4 finger grip behind the choil any more.
You´d basically have a locking UKPK drop point then (pic below)... (not a bad option, don´t get me wrong, but for me no longer a Stretch though it looks very much like a shrunken one)

If Sal & Eric make me a 3" straight spine stretch with a back lock, I'm totally ok with you calling it a locking UKPK. :-)

[Wartstein]

Now, if you made a Stretch any shorter than the Stretch 1 (disc.) already is/was, it imho would not be a Stretch anymore, cause you could not get that comfortable 4 finger grip behind the choil any more.
You´d basically have a locking UKPK drop point then (pic below)... (not a bad option, don´t get me wrong, but for me no longer a Stretch though it looks very much like a shrunken one)

If Sal & Eric make me a 3" straight spine stretch with a back lock, I'm totally ok with you calling it a locking UKPK. :-)

I really hope they'll make one. For you and others! :)
Tbh, I'd perhaps like it too, despite it being- for me- not a "real Stretch" anymore

[Pancake]

Bump.

I want this knife, 4 inch stretched Stretch, you are gonna be mine

[Pancake]

Any thoughts for a name?