Let's discuss cheaper base models

[vivi]

Something I think could be beneficial to certain Spyderco models would be a less expensive base model.

The UKPK and Para 3 are two examples that come to mind.

Both models offer a very low price base configuration, that, as far as I'm aware, sell very well.

Both are available in more expensive steels likely to appeal to AFI's more than the general public.

I think this is the way to go with models that are bound to receive sprints. The popular general purpose in house designs like the Delica, Military and Para 2 come to mind.

I think the average knife buyer does not want to deal with sharpening S110V or maintaining 4V in the elements. These are really cool steels, but sometimes people want something that "just works."

I think steels like 440C, VG10, BD1, BD1N, AEB-L and 12C27 do a good job of providing the "just works" qualities these folks will appreciate. They're about as stainless as you'll get outside of specialty steels like LC200N, they are dead simple for a novice with an arkansas stone to sharpen, they're pretty tough and with a good heat treat paired with Spyderco geometry their edge holding will still be a step above what most people are used to.

With the proliferation of high end sprint models, I think this approach makes a lot of sense for popular models.

The approach of the Police lightweight is a great example. There is a base model that you can get for about $100 shipped. This will appeal to a wider market than K390. Down the road, if the model is popular enough, AFI's will get stuff like ZDP189 and K390. But introducing the cheaper base model first was a wise move in my eyes. Even as an AFI myself, the corrosion resistance of VG10 makes it a better EDC steel than K390, though I appreciate the qualities both steels offer.

What are your thoughts?

[SG89]

I agree with everything you just wrote.

[prndltech]

I think the average knife buyer does not want to deal with sharpening S110V or maintaining 4V in the elements. These are really cool steels, but sometimes people want something that "just works."

I think steels like 440C, VG10, BD1, BD1N, AEB-L and 12C27 do a good job of providing the "just works" qualities these folks will appreciate. They're about as stainless as you'll get outside of specialty steels like LC200N....

What are your thoughts?

You forgot H1 :p

I don’t want to deal with sharpening s110v or maintaining 4v

Maybe it’s cuz of my profession, but I want to buy tools that are well made and “just work” as you put it. I love knives, I love tools, I love well made knives and tools. I use both everyday, the majority of the day. I pass on most sprints, sure there’s some the AFI in me would love to have... but in reality a well made tool is all I want. And the “base versions” do just that. I have no problem with a VG-10 endura or Delica. They’re fantastic as they are... a little vanilla for us weirdos but they WORK. I’ve had a brown FRN vg-10 plain Jane vanilla Delica on my tool box that’s been abused for years and I love it!

All goes to say that for me, I’d take a BD1N manix 2 LW over a maxamet any day of the week... (throw in whatever base comparison you want here).

This is why I love SE H1 knives and why the pacific salt was me go to favorite knife for many years. Also, this is why I’m really enjoying experimenting with only carrying hawkbills till the new year. SE H1 (or any salt) knives just plain work. They’re tough, and require virtually no maintenance. This is why I love them.

The “base model” Spyderco’s still trip my trigger... for the most part. They definitely serve my needs just fine.

I don’t even carry any other brands nowadays. except a lil SAK classic or something of the like that’s on my keys.

edit* Basically, I’ve gone full circle after spending a bunch of money. But I learned a lot.

Edit#2 the salt series, as well as some of the base models, or regular production “lower end” or “ common folk” steel spydies are like snap on’s blue point brand or matco tools silver eagle brand for me. They work well, are well made, tough steel (maybe at the cost of edge retention), solid tools that get the job done.

[benben]

I think S30 / S35 / & VG10 are great baseline, high quality blade steels. I know my opinion here is not important but I despise Walmart, hate walking in the place! I’d love to see Sal work out a deal with say....Home Depot and pick a model or two, say a Delica & Endura at a special set price.

I started to say a “special” run of something like a PM2 but I think it’d be hard to get it to a price point that would be attractive to the majority of the clientele at Home Depot.

I’ve said recently here I’m late to the party on my Pacific Salt....I absolutely love that knife more everyday! What about a special run FRN model with S30V in the same shape and dimensions as the Pac Salt with a price point around $59 / $69? It’s late, just thinking out loud. Sorry Vivi, probably took this in a much different direction!

[steelcity16]

I don't have anything against BD1 or BD1N, and I just found out they are stainless! Lol. I always thought they were semi-stainless tools steels along the lines of a slightly cheaper and less tough Cruwear. I have the Manix LW in BD1 and had a Para 3 LW in BD1N but sold it for non-steel related reasons.

AEB-L is another that is on my mind a lot. I would buy the new Comp Lock Military in AEB-L to try it out. CPM-154 is another. I don't know where either of these fall on the cost scale vs. BD1 or BD1N though.

I like your line of thinking, but I think in the end it applies more to the lightweight models. The G10 flagship models are probably better marketed with a "supersteel" to help justify their expense.

[Mushroom]

Very well said, Vivi. I like the idea of getting more base models into the hands of those who would have otherwise missed out because of a higher price point. If anything, I think it could help to gauge interest for certain models to determine if a sprint run is worth the investment.

Overall, I don't know how much the steel choice will really effect the price though. Using the Police 4 for example, a lot had to happen to cut the price from $190 to $100. The switch from K390 to VG10 certainly effected the price, but I think most of the cost savings comes from the switch to FRN scales over machined g10 scales.

[Ankerson]

Spyderco already has different tiers of models to attract didn't types of buyers.

As in different price ranges.

And changing the steel just isn't going to drop the price much on some of the models as we have already seen before.

Especially with the G10 models made here in the US.

Prime example was the Military in 52100...

Now the FRN models seem to be cheaper.... So if people like FRN...

I think the stand by S30V and VG-10 are fine as their base steels on the main models.

And we already have the lower cost FRN models in BD-1.

And the BYRD line is still there.

[Ankerson]

Very well said, Vivi. I like the idea of getting more base models into the hands of those who would have otherwise missed out because of a higher price point. If anything, I think it could help to gauge interest for certain models to determine if a sprint run is worth the investment.

Overall, I don't know how much the steel choice will really effect the price though. Using the Police 4 for example, a lot had to happen to cut the price from $190 to $100. The switch from K390 to VG10 certainly effected the price, but I think most of the cost savings comes from the switch to FRN scales over machined g10 scales.

Really none of the models, at least the main ones are exactly expensive street price wise.

Comparing to what else is out there, comparable models that is. Some of those cost a lot more than Spydercos do, a heck of a lot more.

Just the steel alone really doesn't effect the price as much as some think it does.

It just won't drop it to the levels they think it will.

I have a feeling that is what this is really all about in the 1st place.

We had this same thread already more than once before. They got what they wanted, a 52100 Military, and it cost just as much as the S30V model does just like we said it would. Most of us did anyway...

Now we have the same thread again..

I seriously doubt anything will change, if they just change the steel the cost will be basically the same or very close.

The S30V Military is $174 and the S110V Military is $198 as an example (Street Prices).... Not much difference in price here. Exact same knife just different steels.

I think Spyderco's pricing is really pretty low for what we are getting.

Especially these days of $1,000 Smart Phones.

[JacksonKnives]

Vivi is on to something, but IMO that's a description of the policy Spyderco is already running with.
E.g.: we haven't got a new Military design despite a prototype with an exciting new lock kicking around for years, but we do have lightweight versions of the best-selling knives.

[ladybug93]

i would agree, but i think spyderco overpriced base models as it is. vg10 and bd1 models especially. it was worth buying my manix lw in xhp because it was only $5 more than a bd1 version. that doesn’t make sense to me. why even use bd1 at all if a steel that’s better is almost the same price? and why buy a delica in vg10 when it costs almost as much as a knife with s30v? i’d rather have the current “base” steels at lower prices than they are and stop raising them annually like the new year brings a magical financial barrier.

[Pelagic]

What steel is the "poor man's Vanax"?

Which budget stainless has the finest grain structure and good strength?

[Larry_Mott]

Vivi is on to something, but IMO that's a description of the policy Spyderco is already running with.
E.g.: we haven't got a new Military design despite a prototype with an exciting new lock kicking around for years, but we do have lightweight versions of the best-selling knives.

I too find the original post an accurate description of how Spyderco works, and has worked for as long as i have been into them..
Also don't forget the fact that people don't buy "baseline" new models, waiting for a sprint - that won't happen because the base model didn't sell well..
(Yes Manix 2 backlock, i'm talking about you, among others)
Also, i'd imagine black G10/FRN/FRCP are the cheapest options, paired with VG10, BD1 and S30V but for every new knife introduced with those specs the interwebs are full of boo-hoo's over the boring choices..

[The Deacon]

As others have noted, I think Spyderco has done a pretty darn good job of giving us models at a variety of price points. Bottom line, when producing a brand new model they have to build what they think will sell. Starting out with an inexpensive FRN base version sounds great, but the molds are expensive and require a large sales volume to make that low price feasible. Although it sounds counter intuitive, it's much safer for them to start out with a G-10 or CF base version and only consider offering an FRN version if sales volume of that base model indicates they stand an excellent chance of recouping their investment in the molds.

[vivi]

I think the average knife buyer does not want to deal with sharpening S110V or maintaining 4V in the elements. These are really cool steels, but sometimes people want something that "just works."

I think steels like 440C, VG10, BD1, BD1N, AEB-L and 12C27 do a good job of providing the "just works" qualities these folks will appreciate. They're about as stainless as you'll get outside of specialty steels like LC200N....

What are your thoughts?

You forgot H1 :p

I don’t want to deal with sharpening s110v or maintaining 4v

Maybe it’s cuz of my profession, but I want to buy tools that are well made and “just work” as you put it. I love knives, I love tools, I love well made knives and tools. I use both everyday, the majority of the day. I pass on most sprints, sure there’s some the AFI in me would love to have... but in reality a well made tool is all I want. And the “base versions” do just that. I have no problem with a VG-10 endura or Delica. They’re fantastic as they are... a little vanilla for us weirdos but they WORK. I’ve had a brown FRN vg-10 plain Jane vanilla Delica on my tool box that’s been abused for years and I love it!

All goes to say that for me, I’d take a BD1N manix 2 LW over a maxamet any day of the week... (throw in whatever base comparison you want here).

This is why I love SE H1 knives and why the pacific salt was me go to favorite knife for many years. Also, this is why I’m really enjoying experimenting with only carrying hawkbills till the new year. SE H1 (or any salt) knives just plain work. They’re tough, and require virtually no maintenance. This is why I love them.

The “base model” Spyderco’s still trip my trigger... for the most part. They definitely serve my needs just fine.

I don’t even carry any other brands nowadays. except a lil SAK classic or something of the like that’s on my keys.

edit* Basically, I’ve gone full circle after spending a bunch of money. But I learned a lot.

Edit#2 the salt series, as well as some of the base models, or regular production “lower end” or “ common folk” steel spydies are like snap on’s blue point brand or matco tools silver eagle brand for me. They work well, are well made, tough steel (maybe at the cost of edge retention), solid tools that get the job done.

The full circle comment rings true with me as well.

I spent over a decade chasing exotic steels. ZDP189, S7, INFI, S90V, BG42, SR101, 3V, 204P, Maxamet, Cruwear, S110V, Ti, H1, CPMD2 and many more.

The first Spyderco I owned was a VG10/FRN Delica.

The knife going into my pocket today is a VG10/FRN Police.

I've even gone back to carrying Opinels and Swiss Army knives like I did before I found Spyderco. Their edge retention is terrible compared to most the steels on my list above, but their geometry is world class. I find them enjoyable to use for their highly efficient geometry, and do not mind having to touch them up once a week or so.

While some days I want to break out the sharpening stones and play around with edge angles and grit finishes, for a knife going into my pocket every single day I just want a steel that won't rust easily, won't chip out easily, and sharpens fast. VG10 fits the bill.

If I had my choice of VG10, ZDP and K390 on day one of the Police LW launch....I still would have picked VG10 for my first.

[vivi]

What steel is the "poor man's Vanax"?

Which budget stainless has the finest grain structure and good strength?

I can't say which one steel is best here, but I'd imagine 12C27, AEB-L and BD1 fit the critera of being cheap, finely grained with good strength?

i would agree, but i think spyderco overpriced base models as it is. vg10 and bd1 models especially. it was worth buying my manix lw in xhp because it was only $5 more than a bd1 version. that doesn’t make sense to me. why even use bd1 at all if a steel that’s better is almost the same price? and why buy a delica in vg10 when it costs almost as much as a knife with s30v? i’d rather have the current “base” steels at lower prices than they are and stop raising them annually like the new year brings a magical financial barrier.

I've read your comments about the price differences in the Manix 2 and I'm also surprised at how small of a gap there was.

Overall, I don't know how much the steel choice will really effect the price though. Using the Police 4 for example, a lot had to happen to cut the price from $190 to $100. The switch from K390 to VG10 certainly effected the price, but I think most of the cost savings comes from the switch to FRN scales over machined g10 scales.

This is a good point.

When / If the K390 Lightweight Police is made, that will give us a better comparison to determine the price inflation the steel causes.

[Sumdumguy]

What steel is the "poor man's Vanax"?

Which budget stainless has the finest grain structure and good strength?

I can't speak about the grain structure, but
It's going to be LC200N. It has proven itself to be tough as nails and it is super cheap.

[Pelagic]

Is LC200N cheaper than BD1N? I read that BD1N is capable of 63+ HRC, which is intriguing. It would be nice to know what stainless steels reach decent hardness levels without getting chippy.

[Ankerson]

What steel is the "poor man's Vanax"?

Which budget stainless has the finest grain structure and good strength?

I can't say which one steel is best here, but I'd imagine 12C27, AEB-L and BD1 fit the critera of being cheap, finely grained with good strength?

i would agree, but i think spyderco overpriced base models as it is. vg10 and bd1 models especially. it was worth buying my manix lw in xhp because it was only $5 more than a bd1 version. that doesn’t make sense to me. why even use bd1 at all if a steel that’s better is almost the same price? and why buy a delica in vg10 when it costs almost as much as a knife with s30v? i’d rather have the current “base” steels at lower prices than they are and stop raising them annually like the new year brings a magical financial barrier.

I've read your comments about the price differences in the Manix 2 and I'm also surprised at how small of a gap there was.

Overall, I don't know how much the steel choice will really effect the price though. Using the Police 4 for example, a lot had to happen to cut the price from $190 to $100. The switch from K390 to VG10 certainly effected the price, but I think most of the cost savings comes from the switch to FRN scales over machined g10 scales.

This is a good point.

When / If the K390 Lightweight Police is made, that will give us a better comparison to determine the price inflation the steel causes.

This is the current example of the difference.. SMALL difference in price between the two knives. Both current model Militaries, normal production models. I am sure black G10 costs slightly less than the Blue G10...


The S30V Military is $174 and the S110V Military is $198 as an example (Street Prices).... Not much difference in price here. Exact same knife just different steels.

That's about the best example you are going to get....

[vivi]

Is LC200N cheaper than BD1N? I read that BD1N is capable of 63+ HRC, which is intriguing. It would be nice to know what stainless steels reach decent hardness levels without getting chippy.

Not even just stainless. Compare a custom 61-62rc 1095 knife to a 55-57rc ESEE and there's a huge difference in edge holding.

One thing I'm interested in is trying more lower carbide steels at higher hardness. I find these offer an excellent combination of edge retention and ease of sharpening. They don't have the same feel on stones as the high vanadium steels and they form minimal burrs compared to their softer run counterparts.

1095, AEB-L and A2 are three steels that come to mind. I've tried all three above 60rc and well below.

I don't know how I forgot to mention LC in regards to your last question. :rolleyes:

[Ankerson]

Is LC200N cheaper than BD1N? I read that BD1N is capable of 63+ HRC, which is intriguing. It would be nice to know what stainless steels reach decent hardness levels without getting chippy.

Not even just stainless. Compare a custom 61-62rc 1095 knife to a 55-57rc ESEE and there's a huge difference in edge holding.

One thing I'm interested in is trying more lower carbide steels at higher hardness. I find these offer an excellent combination of edge retention and ease of sharpening. They don't have the same feel on stones as the high vanadium steels and they form minimal burrs compared to their softer run counterparts.

1095, AEB-L and A2 are three steels that come to mind. I've tried all three above 60rc and well below.

I don't know how I forgot to mention LC in regards to your last question. :rolleyes:

Have a knife or knives commissioned by a top custom maker.

Then you can get what you want.


The wait time is normally long though, but that gives time to save up.

Or go on Blade Forums and check out what the custom makers have available.

There are makers on there that make folders too, and excellent ones.