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Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:56 pm
by fixall
I saw a deal on the 9.5" Super Blue Gyuto that was MUCH too good to pass up so I now have one on the way (with free two day shipping to boot)!
I'm super excited... It should pair well with my 7" Kramer/Zwilling 52100 Santoku. :D
Anyone have one the Spyderco Murray Carter kitchen knives? I'd love to hear some feedback!
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:23 pm
by Dazen
Are there still all black G10 coming?! I don’t know if I can buy just one!
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:58 pm
by Pelagic
Does Carter deal with any cutting edge steels yet? is he still caught up on San mai being the absolute best way to make blades? Does he still disregard strength as somehow being an unworthy attribute? Does he still utterly overvalue toughness?
When we have people like Phil Wilson, Chad Kelly, BBB, and others posting here, giving Murray Carter any praise seems like a waste.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:47 pm
by Pancake
Well, Carter is not a knifemaker, more like a bladesmith. He learned traditional japanese techniques and because of that he is using primarily simple easy to forge steels (white, blue, superblue....) in a traditional san-mai style.
His opinions are based on those traditions. And like to be honest, I don't think you need CPM 10V for a kitchen knife. You need geometry, but that is something you know Pelagic. Simple steels and kitchen knives are good combination in my eyes.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:59 am
by knivesandbooks
Carter is a legend. He's also a big supporter of getting carbon steel back in the kitchen. I know he uses white a lot and usually san mai. Like Pancake said, he uses forging steels. But I really think if you boight on of his hand forged kitchen knives or fixed blades, his steel would impress you. I'm sure this Spyderco made on is impressive too. I've seen great performance from basic steels that are hand forged. Look at what some people are able to get out of O1 and W2. Even Lon Humphrey's 1095. Idk, seems like a different sort of thing when you get into bladesmith stuff. Then again, I haven't used enough to fully create a database. I'm sure some here have. And I'm sure there's good and bad.
End of the day though, superblue for a kitchen knife is good stuff.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:19 am
by TomAiello
Pelagic wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:58 pm
When we have people like Phil Wilson, Chad Kelly, BBB, and others posting here, giving Murray Carter any praise seems like a waste.
Murray Carter still deserves a lot of praise. I understand that many people don't appreciate the traditional knife making art, but it's super impressive, and Murray Carter is one of the finest practitioners of it.
Sure, I'd rather have a Phil Wilson than a Murray Carter (and I do own multiple Phil Wilson customs and zero Murray Carters) but that doesn't mean he's not worthy of praise.
Plus, aren't the Carter collabs coming in BD1n? That's a fairly new steel choice. The cutting edge doesn't have to be at the top of the market.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:45 am
by Pelagic
I was too harsh on Murray. I'm just not a big fan of his work or his arrogance. Doesn't he claim to have made 25,000 blades? Given he started when he went to Japan at age 18, and he's probably about 30 years older by now, I'd you do the math he's averaged almost 2.5 blades per day for 30 years straight. Lol?
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:13 am
by hmr
Why do you think that it isn't possible for him to make 2.5 blades in an day when he's demonstrated on video that he can make a kitchen knife start to finish in under a thirty minutes? Here's the video to that:
https://youtu.be/5uqhwS54PRs
He makes his knives in batches of 20, 50, 100, etc. which streamlines his work processes and allows for him to produce knives in a quick manner. 25,000 is probably a fair estimate.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:40 am
by Pancake
Pelagic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:45 am
I was too harsh on Murray. I'm just not a big fan of his work or his arrogance. Doesn't he claim to have made 25,000 blades? Given he started when he went to Japan at age 18, and he's probably about 30 years older by now, I'd you do the math he's averaged almost 2.5 blades per day for 30 years straight. Lol?
Yeah, +- 3 blades per day for 30 years......that´s a lot hammering done :D
One thing that we can´t really judge is the whole japanese mindset about their traditional work, like bladesmithing, or sushi or that silly paper making thing (origami?).
All the know-how were passed from one generation to another and they are really bloody proud of their history and traditions......maybe like:
,, We made knives back when USA does not even exist, and you want to tell us something about knife making?“
Carter could pick up similar midset.......and to be honest, if I were ABS master smith and have that much experience, I would be bit arrogant too.
Bottom line is, I really like his work and style he has......If I had that kind of money for some of his design, but maybe not a kitchen knife but something else.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:04 am
by Pelagic
He also ridicules western bladesmith techniques and acts as if strength is an inferior attribute to strive for in heat treatment. He was on that joke show "forged in fire" and his blade bent when the tester tried to wack some bamboo or something. He took the stance that the judges were ignorant to how Japanese blades are made, and that his blade may bend but never break. He even had the audacity to say you could always just bend it back on the battlefield. Lol? He then talked about how western style blades may survive more abuse without bending or chipping, but he doesn't abuse his swords, so that is irrelevant. First of all, a sword isn't supposed to be abused??? What?? And it's like he doesn't understand basic concepts.
Toughness is resistance to fracture.
Hardness is resistance to bending.
Strength is resistance to fracture or bending.
That's a severe oversimplification, admittedly, but the guy acts like toughness is the end all be all when it comes to blade attributes. He deals with and loves a lot of 52100, which is a great steel, but he's so dead set in his ways that he doesn't care to expand his horizons. He tends to look at any of his failures or setbacks and write them off as someone else's fault.
I'm really sorry for hijacking this thread, for all I know these kitchen knives are excellent quality, especially with spyderco involved. Carter's ego is such a turnoff though. We have people here posting regularly that produce work that is objectively superior to his in several ways (and hold more logical opinions on blades), yet they remain humble and do not assert that they are any sort of authority on blades or God's gift to bladesmithing.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:21 am
by Kels73
I have a lot of respect for Murray Carter. In my opinion, he's confident, but I've never experienced him as arrogant. He's committed to the art of traditional Japanese knife forging, so he's not focused on complex alloys. I've never used one of his kitchen knives, but I've owned three of his neck knives. I was impressed to say the least.
And he's not 30.
https://www.cartercutlery.com/our-story ... ay-carter/
Also for what it's worth, Alton Brown likes his knives, lol (tip #3).
https://altonbrown.com/10-knife-buying-tips/
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:27 am
by Larrin
Kels73 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:21 am
I have a lot of respect for Murray Carter. In my opinion, he's confident, but I've never experienced him as arrogant. He's committed to the art of traditional Japanese knife forging, so he's not focused on complex alloys. I've never used one of his kitchen knives, but I've owned three of his neck knives. I was impressed to say the least.
And he's not 30.
https://www.cartercutlery.com/our-story ... ay-carter/
Also for what it's worth, Alton Brown likes his knives, lol (tip #3).
https://altonbrown.com/10-knife-buying-tips/
He said making knives for 30 years, not 30 years old.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:28 am
by Larrin
Pelagic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:45 am
I was too harsh on Murray. I'm just not a big fan of his work or his arrogance. Doesn't he claim to have made 25,000 blades? Given he started when he went to Japan at age 18, and he's probably about 30 years older by now, I'd you do the math he's averaged almost 2.5 blades per day for 30 years straight. Lol?
Murray makes a lot more knives than the average bladesmith.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 am
by Kels73
Larrin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:27 am
He said making knives for 30 years, not 30 years old.
My mistake. Thanks.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:27 am
by Ankerson
Pelagic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:04 am
He also ridicules western bladesmith techniques and acts as if strength is an inferior attribute to strive for in heat treatment. He was on that joke show "forged in fire" and his blade bent when the tester tried to wack some bamboo or something. He took the stance that the judges were ignorant to how Japanese blades are made, and that his blade may bend but never break. He even had the audacity to say you could always just bend it back on the battlefield. Lol? He then talked about how western style blades may survive more abuse without bending or chipping, but he doesn't abuse his swords, so that is irrelevant. First of all, a sword isn't supposed to be abused??? What?? And it's like he doesn't understand basic concepts.
Toughness is resistance to fracture.
Hardness is resistance to bending.
Strength is resistance to fracture or bending.
That's a severe oversimplification, admittedly, but the guy acts like toughness is the end all be all when it comes to blade attributes. He deals with and loves a lot of 52100, which is a great steel, but he's so dead set in his ways that he doesn't care to expand his horizons. He tends to look at any of his failures or setbacks and write them off as someone else's fault.
I'm really sorry for hijacking this thread, for all I know these kitchen knives are excellent quality, especially with spyderco involved. Carter's ego is such a turnoff though. We have people here posting regularly that produce work that is objectively superior to his in several ways (and hold more logical opinions on blades), yet they remain humble and do not assert that they are any sort of authority on blades or God's gift to bladesmithing.
I remember that show, I watched it just to see how he did.
I won't go into it as you already said all that needs to be said on that.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:30 pm
by Deadboxhero
Murray Carter is a Legend.
Love him or hate him that doesn't change.
He has right to be proud, it is very difficult to make a living making knives. Gotta eat a lot of grit and you're by yourself in your own head a lot.
He has been doing this longer than most that is not an easy feat physically, mentally or to make financially stable but he has built it up from two hands and dirt floors.
Making knives at that volume with that quality with forging and old world hand and eye coordination can only be labeled as extraordinary and deserves respect.
I'd argue that some folks here should meet the man at a knife show before coming to conclusions.
There are a lot of contributions Murray has made to the knife Community on a whole.
It's nice to see Spyderco has teamed up with him.
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:33 pm
by sal
Murray and I go back a long ways, almost 20 years. He is exceptional at what he creates. We are honored to be able to work with him.
sal
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:35 pm
by koenigsegg
Incoming video of BBB bending blades in half! :)
I can hope can't I
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:28 pm
by Pelagic
Larrin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:28 am
Pelagic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:45 am
I was too harsh on Murray. I'm just not a big fan of his work or his arrogance. Doesn't he claim to have made 25,000 blades? Given he started when he went to Japan at age 18, and he's probably about 30 years older by now, I'd you do the math he's averaged almost 2.5 blades per day for 30 years straight. Lol?
Murray makes a lot more knives than the average bladesmith.
I'll say! :rolleyes:
Re: Spyderco/Murray Carter Kitchen Knife Collaboration.
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:33 pm
by Doeswhateveraspidercan
I respect Murray Carter and his point of view as a Japanese Lineage holder, which for a Westerner to become at a very young age speaks volumes about the man.
He has walked the walk and has earned the right to talk the talk.
Mr. Carter has provided me a wonderful education via his DVD educational materials on knife sharpening, when even an under-skilled fixed position sharpening system dependent nobody like me can get a sharp blade by free hand sharpening using his methods I am convinced he knows his stuff.
Here is a discussion on Mr.Carters choice in steels and why.
https://youtu.be/zl3uPlxuyjw
Hopefully after tax returns I will be able to purchase one of these collaborations. Hardness toughness and flexibility are all qualities he espouses as well as ease of sharpening, he states these are signs of superior cutlery can't say I have any issues with this.
As for the steels he uses versus the more modern stuff I have to withhold comment until I get some experience with them from his forge. Very recently 440C did two things for me. #1. Give me a greater appreciation for older low carbide steels and #2. Make me appreciate the better edge holding characteristics of S30V.