Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

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ugaarguy
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Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby ugaarguy » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:20 pm

Sal, the Delica and Endura both have trainer variants available. The Native 5 family has had numerous variations, but no trainer. Is there any chance we can get that for this very popular model?

ugaarguy
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:20 pm

Is anyone else interested?

Naperville
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby Naperville » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:37 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:20 pm
Is anyone else interested?
I think the idea has some merit. I am sure that a lot of martial artists and police departments would like a Native 5 trainer. I have a Native 5, and cannot "train" with it. I don't train with live weapons.

I don't know how well trainers sell.
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Lum Tanto, Native Chief(?), Street Beat and Street Bowie(4V at 60+ HRC).

AwayFromMySpydieHole
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby AwayFromMySpydieHole » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:02 pm

Buy a cheap used native. Dull it. Instant trainer, and can even be used as a real knife when you’re done training.

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Spydergirl88
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby Spydergirl88 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:25 pm

AwayFromMySpydieHole wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:02 pm
Buy a cheap used native. Dull it. Instant trainer, and can even be used as a real knife when you’re done training.
Good advice.

ugaarguy
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:33 pm

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:25 pm
AwayFromMySpydieHole wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:02 pm
Buy a cheap used native. Dull it. Instant trainer, and can even be used as a real knife when you’re done training.
Good advice.
That's actually not good advice. Just blunting the edge isn't enough for any real training - the blade is still too thin at the edge just from the primary grind to be safe. Grinding back enough to get to a thicker cross section will shorten the blade too much in length and height for it to be an accurate trainer. There's a reason that dedicated trainers use a full thickness blade that's rounded on all edges, and skeletonized to match the weight of a ground and sharpened blade.

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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:35 pm

I'm probably just going to have to buy a Yojimbo and a Yojimbo trainer and then epoxy the clips to the scales to eliminate the clip wobble I get on every Spydie that mounts the clip screws to the liner.

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Spydergirl88
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby Spydergirl88 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:47 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:33 pm
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:25 pm
AwayFromMySpydieHole wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:02 pm
Buy a cheap used native. Dull it. Instant trainer, and can even be used as a real knife when you’re done training.
Good advice.
That's actually not good advice. Just blunting the edge isn't enough for any real training - the blade is still too thin at the edge just from the primary grind to be safe. Grinding back enough to get to a thicker cross section will shorten the blade too much in length and height for it to be an accurate trainer. There's a reason that dedicated trainers use a full thickness blade that's rounded on all edges, and skeletonized to match the weight of a ground and sharpened blade.
My bad.

ugaarguy
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby ugaarguy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:03 pm

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:47 pm
My bad.
No worries, and sorry if you felt like I was calling you out. It seems like it should work, but it doesn't. I wanted to make sure no one reading it tried that and got hurt.

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Spydergirl88
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby Spydergirl88 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:05 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:03 pm
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:47 pm
My bad.
No worries, and sorry if you felt like I was calling you out. It seems like it should work, but it doesn't. I wanted to make sure no one reading it tried that and got hurt.
Nah man, I learned something today. Hopefully others will too

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zuludelta
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby zuludelta » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:45 am

I'd love a Native 5 trainer, perhaps with a linerless FRN handle and with 3Cr13 for blade steel to keep costs down.

Currently, I use a Delica 4 trainer as a "close enough" Native 5 trainer (the Native 5 & the Delica 4 are my two most-carried folders). The weight of the Delica 4 trainer is almost the same as that of the Native 5 Lightweight, it has the same locking mechanism, the same general clip design, similar overall dimensions, & barring the lack of a dedicated choil & depending on one's preferred grip, the ergonomics are very roughly in the ballpark. Whatever gross motor skills one develops in self-defence training with a Delica 4 trainer should largely be transferrable to Native 5 usage.

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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby AwayFromMySpydieHole » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:56 am

ugaarguy wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:33 pm
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:25 pm
AwayFromMySpydieHole wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:02 pm
Buy a cheap used native. Dull it. Instant trainer, and can even be used as a real knife when you’re done training.
Good advice.
That's actually not good advice. Just blunting the edge isn't enough for any real training - the blade is still too thin at the edge just from the primary grind to be safe. Grinding back enough to get to a thicker cross section will shorten the blade too much in length and height for it to be an accurate trainer. There's a reason that dedicated trainers use a full thickness blade that's rounded on all edges, and skeletonized to match the weight of a ground and sharpened blade.


You absolutely do not have to grind the knife blunt to make it safe.

Take a simple DMT stone and run the edge up and down the stone at 90 degrees. You will completely flatten the edge enough to make it 100% safe, without removing much material at all. I've done it.

I make knives, and I have ground some of them down to .008 behind the edge. If I blunted the edge (without changing the grind at all) there's no way they'd penetrate skin even with a brisk swing. Take a spyderco that is (at the very least) twice as thick at the edge and you're even more safe.

We can agree to disagree. :)

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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby Michael Janich » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:32 am

Decades ago, there were no factory-made folding trainers. Those of us who trained in knife tactics carved, molded, or otherwise crafted non-folding trainers that had edges thick enough to make safe contact with a partner. Then, Eric Remmen started teaching his CLIP-IT self-defense classes, using "droned" Spyderco Delicas. The advantages of having a folding trainer that allows you to draw, open, and make contact with your training knife in one fluid continuum were huge, so Spyderco ultimately introduced dedicated Delica and Endura trainers.

Back in the day, saber grinds were the norm, so there was enough steel behind the edge to create a reasonably thick contact surface. Although not nearly as safe as the full-thickness "edge" of a dedicated trainer, they were OK. I have done this to knives like the Endura Emerson Opener for military students because that knife no longer has a dedicated trainer.

Full-flat-ground knives--like the Native 5--have thinner edge geometry. To achieve adequate thickness to train safely, you'd have to grind very high up on the blade. You'd change the profile of the blade substantially and reduce its weight to the point that it would not replicate the live blade well.

I would never allow one of my students or training partners to use a trainer with a thin contact edge. It may be OK on soft tissue, but if you actually train you'll quickly realize that the edge also impacts poorly padded, bony areas of the body and will break the skin. That's not speculation. I've seen it happen in training and have prohibited people from using makeshift trainers in my classes for that reason.

If you had to make a trainer out of a live blade, my current preferred method is to grind off the edge and point, then slit a piece of thin brass tubing (available at hobby shops) down its entire length with a Dremel cutoff wheel. Use JB Weld to attach the tubing to the edge to create a thick, safe contact area that still folds cleanly into the handle. I did this for Mike Seeklander, my co-host on The Best Defense TV show, for his Tenacious.

Curiously, I also "droned" a Tenacious as a prop for a scenario on The Best Defense. The host of the show, Michael Bane, was also the victim in the scenario. He raised his arm at the wrong time and--even with the blunted, polished, edge and rounded point--ended up donating blood.

Stay safe,

Mike

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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby prndltech » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:31 am

Let’s not forget that even with a blunted edge an FFG blade would still stab well....
- Shannon

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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:39 am

These trainer knives puzzle me, besides ones that open in a odd way, or a ballisong. What are people doing with a Native, if it's not sharp? If a Native needs a trainer, then it seems like any knife in the world needs a trainer model. I wouldn't think of a Native out of all models to need to be a trainer. Not to mention these "fake knives" are pretty expensive. I've never been able to wrap my head around these things. I'm not trying to sound rude or ignornant, I'm just honestly clueless about the purpose other than a ballisong.
19 :spyder:'s in 11 different steels
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VooDooChild
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby VooDooChild » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:57 am

TkoK83Spy wrote: These trainer knives puzzle me, besides ones that open in a odd way, or a ballisong. What are people doing with a Native, if it's not sharp? If a Native needs a trainer, then it seems like any knife in the world needs a trainer model. I wouldn't think of a Native out of all models to need to be a trainer. Not to mention these "fake knives" are pretty expensive. I've never been able to wrap my head around these things. I'm not trying to sound rude or ignornant, I'm just honestly clueless about the purpose other than a ballisong.
A trainer ballisong is to keep you from cutting yourself.

Trainer knives in this sense are for martial arts training. So that you can full contact spar with a partner and not end their life.

But I will say I dont really see what a native 5 trainer would gain over a delica 4 trainer. I feel like theres alot of overlap there. Theres a choil argument, and the native is different than a delica argument, but I still feel they are really close.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

C99c
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby C99c » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:06 pm

Trainers like the ones Spyderco offers are great for getting reps in on quickly accessing, opening and striking/cutting/whatever in a controlled environment. I like using them against old punching bags and such, but have seen a lot of (thankfully minor) injuries when they are used in FOF exercises.
I much prefer using something like a Nok trainer for actual full speed contact training when possible.
https://noktrainingknives.webs.com/apps/webstore/

Other people offer similar products or they can be made out of foam yoga blocks.

Mr. Janich, thank you for the brass tubing and JB Weld tip. I know some guys who will be very excited when I pass that idea on to them.

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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby Naperville » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:53 pm

Thank you for your input Michael Janich!
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Lum Tanto, Native Chief(?), Street Beat and Street Bowie(4V at 60+ HRC).

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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby VashHash » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:20 pm

I usually just make my own out of 1/4" aluminum.
Some of these may look familiar.
Image

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steelcity16
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Re: Sal, Native 5 Trainer?

Postby steelcity16 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:17 pm

VashHash wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:20 pm
I usually just make my own out of 1/4" aluminum.
Some of these may look familiar.
Image

Those are pretty cool! Nice work! Are you training for Zombie Apocalypse with that Schempp Rock trainer or what??? :eek:
:spyder: CRU-CARTA THEM ALL! :spyder:


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