Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
In this thread I´d like to discuss, what certain lock types mean concerning the design and overall construction of a knife.
! So NOT which lock type may be safer, better, faster, whatever IN USE!
I may give some examples, that should make clear what I mean (and please correct me, if I am wrong with some assumptions)
BACKLOCK:
- Probably the best for making the thinnest folder possible
- Limits the possible height of a blade due to the lockbar in the back (for example Sal stated, that the tall Shaman blade would not fit into a similarly shaped backlock model, but sure in a comp.lock model)
- Allows to design relatively solid linerless models, due to the closed back and the steel lockbar
- makes it harder, but not impossible to design a knife with the edge all the way back to the handle
COMP.LOCK:
- Allows for a very tall blade (Shaman...)
- Very easy to design a knife with edge all the way back to the handle
- Trickier to design really linerless models (BUT: Possible, enter Para 3 LW!)
CBBL:
- Requires some kind of choil (so edge all the way to the handle technically almost impossible?)
- Requires a somewhat taller handle probably? ("handle height")
- A very thin knife would not be possible probably
LINER LOCK:
- Pretty much the same regarding the topic as a comp.lock I guess
- Other than: Requires some cutout on the bottom of the handle, so that could make it a bit trickyier concerning ergonomics
Don´t know, but hope that there is more to say about this topic and that some would like to share their thoughts. Of course also concerning locktypes I did NOT list here!
! So NOT which lock type may be safer, better, faster, whatever IN USE!
I may give some examples, that should make clear what I mean (and please correct me, if I am wrong with some assumptions)
BACKLOCK:
- Probably the best for making the thinnest folder possible
- Limits the possible height of a blade due to the lockbar in the back (for example Sal stated, that the tall Shaman blade would not fit into a similarly shaped backlock model, but sure in a comp.lock model)
- Allows to design relatively solid linerless models, due to the closed back and the steel lockbar
- makes it harder, but not impossible to design a knife with the edge all the way back to the handle
COMP.LOCK:
- Allows for a very tall blade (Shaman...)
- Very easy to design a knife with edge all the way back to the handle
- Trickier to design really linerless models (BUT: Possible, enter Para 3 LW!)
CBBL:
- Requires some kind of choil (so edge all the way to the handle technically almost impossible?)
- Requires a somewhat taller handle probably? ("handle height")
- A very thin knife would not be possible probably
LINER LOCK:
- Pretty much the same regarding the topic as a comp.lock I guess
- Other than: Requires some cutout on the bottom of the handle, so that could make it a bit trickyier concerning ergonomics
Don´t know, but hope that there is more to say about this topic and that some would like to share their thoughts. Of course also concerning locktypes I did NOT list here!
Last edited by Wartstein on Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Liner, frame and comp’ lock CONS : Detent ball. Theres a better solution to detents, I just know it.
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Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
I think that will be the next big breakthrough in knife designs. Someone will figure out a new cheap solution and it will sweep through all companies. We'll see it... in due time.
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Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Some people would say the "better solution", at least for liner and frame locks, would be replacing the "Walker style" lock with the old school backspring liner lock style as used on the Victorinox Sentinel. Of course you add weight and give up open back construction and "flickability" if you go that route.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
I think we can have our cake and eat it too. Larger diameter balls and ceramic as standard. I’d happily give away some flickability for better, more robust retention.The Deacon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:30 am
Some people would say the "better solution", at least for liner and frame locks, would be replacing the "Walker style" lock with the old school backspring liner lock style as used on the Victorinox Sentinel. Of course you add weight and give up open back construction and "flickability" if you go that route.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
I don't even know if we can go that far back or not. But when I joined this great Spyderco.com Forum back in September of 2004 there was a thread going at the time which I think it was "Sal" himself that started it. It was entitled "Let's Talk About Locks">> or something similar to that. It's been quite a long time. I actually printed it off and I have a hard copy of it in my storage unit that I've kept over the years.
I truly wish there was a way to pull that old thread about locking systems up to see what might have changed over the years. Because that thread really enticed me like few others have over the years.
Personally I've always been intrigued with the Ball Bearing Lock like the one on the Dodo model. But I've never had any of Spyderco's locking systems ever fail me. The compression lock on the old GUNTING model was one of the most impressive I've ever remembered.
I truly wish there was a way to pull that old thread about locking systems up to see what might have changed over the years. Because that thread really enticed me like few others have over the years.
Personally I've always been intrigued with the Ball Bearing Lock like the one on the Dodo model. But I've never had any of Spyderco's locking systems ever fail me. The compression lock on the old GUNTING model was one of the most impressive I've ever remembered.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Just last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.
It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.
The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.
It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.
The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
I also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.Bill1170 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:49 amJust last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.
It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.
The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.
But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"
I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
JD, you just need to use the search tool. I found it right away. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1603&p=1603&hilit=Lock+types#p1603JD Spydo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:50 amI don't even know if we can go that far back or not. But when I joined this great Spyderco.com Forum back in September of 2004 there was a thread going at the time which I think it was "Sal" himself that started it. It was entitled "Let's Talk About Locks">> or something similar to that. It's been quite a long time. I actually printed it off and I have a hard copy of it in my storage unit that I've kept over the years.
I truly wish there was a way to pull that old thread about locking systems up to see what might have changed over the years. Because that thread really enticed me like few others have over the years.
Personally I've always been intrigued with the Ball Bearing Lock like the one on the Dodo model. But I've never had any of Spyderco's locking systems ever fail me. The compression lock on the old GUNTING model was one of the most impressive I've ever remembered.
Edited to add, you can specify the author and keywords in the advanced search tools.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Seems you beat me on finding the thread...Enactive wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:23 amJD, you just need to use the search tool. I found it right away. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1603&p=1603&hilit=Lock+types#p1603
Edited to add, you can specify the author and keywords in the advanced search tools.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
And the Caribbean is proof that a compression lock folder can be made with edge to the handle.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Great I'm glad you guys found that old 2004 thread on "Locking Systems". I thought it might have even been deleted by now. But do check that thread out because there is a lot of input on that thread that would even still be considered timely for today. It was a most interesting discussion. I think they should consider that old "Lock" thread to be a "sticky". There wasn't a bad post on that entire thread IMO.Wartstein wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:28 amSeems you beat me on finding the thread...Enactive wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:23 amJD, you just need to use the search tool. I found it right away. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1603&p=1603&hilit=Lock+types#p1603
Edited to add, you can specify the author and keywords in the advanced search tools.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Sure, but that this is actually rather easy to design was one of the PROS of the comp locks I listed in my op anyway...
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
The D’Allara is a good find, proof of possibility. There’s always a way! I agree that a CBBL Manix variant (XL!) with edge to the handle would be an insta-buy purchase. I so rarely use the choil and the Manix handle is so great, that this would be a big upgrade for me.Wartstein wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:17 amI also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.Bill1170 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:49 amJust last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.
It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.
The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.
But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"
I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Without a standard finger choil on the P'kal and the D'allara you get that wierd looking gap at the base of the blade when the knife is closed. On the manix, that gap is covered by the choil contouring on the handle. So it's my opinion that from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the cbbl needs a finger choil (or maybe some other handle contouring to cover that up).Wartstein wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:17 amI also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.Bill1170 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:49 amJust last night I was over at a friend’s house and the question came up if the CBBL could be used in a design whose edge goes all the way to the handle.
It appears that the hump at the front of the blade choil on the Manix 2 acts as the stop for a closed blade, so that particular design can’t just remove the blade choil and still work properly.
The whole discussion arose because of us both loving the Manix 2 and the CBBL, and also enjoying edges that go right to the handle.
But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"
I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!
- Julia
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
JuPaul wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 amWithout a standard finger choil on the P'kal and the D'allara you get that wierd looking gap at the base of the blade when the knife is closed. On the manix, that gap is covered by the choil contouring on the handle. So it's my opinion that from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the cbbl needs a finger choil (or maybe some other handle contouring to cover that up).Wartstein wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:17 amI also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.
But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"
I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!
You mean a "gap" like the Endura /Endela /Delica have when closed?
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
Yes, but on those models the gap is so small I hardly notice it. On the P'kal it's huge and above the level of the scales. The d'allara's gap is below the level of the scales, so doesn't stick out and create a protusion, but it's still a fairly noticeable gap. Again, just my opinion, but it isn't as appealing of a design to me aesthetically (and does bug me a tiny bit on my delicas, now that you mention it). And as I said, I haven't held either, so this is just based on looking at pics.Wartstein wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:47 amJuPaul wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:44 amWithout a standard finger choil on the P'kal and the D'allara you get that wierd looking gap at the base of the blade when the knife is closed. On the manix, that gap is covered by the choil contouring on the handle. So it's my opinion that from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the cbbl needs a finger choil (or maybe some other handle contouring to cover that up).Wartstein wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:17 amI also was of the opinopn that the CBBL almost mandatory would require a choil in the blade, cause the mechansim would take up a lot of space in the handle.
But Rangefinder corrected me in the second post of this thread (I may quote him :"... The D'Allara 3 uses the ceramic BBL and the P'Kal uses the caged BBL and neither has a choil"
I post a pic of the D´Allara below: It looks a lot like a Manix with an edge all the way back to the handle (and has rather similar dimensions), so what you´d wish for the Manix (and I´d prefer too): With some tweaks it should be possible!
You mean a "gap" like the Endura /Endela /Delica have when closed?
Edit: anyhow, regardless of whether someone cares about "the gap" or not, it does strike me as a design limitation for the cbbl - which is what we're discussing, right?
Now that I think more about it, this would be a potential design limitation for any lock that doesn't allow the blade to nest deeply inside the handle, right? Having a choil allows the blade to sit more deeply with some of those locks (comp lock, cbbl) and/or creates handle contouring to cover the base of the blade (back lock native, for example). I'm sure a finger choil isn't the only way to address the design issue, but it seems like an easy way.
- Julia
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq.
"Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Re: Pros, cons and limitations of locktypes, solely referring to CONSTRUCTION and DESIGN of a folder
"Rangefinder" was the "D´Allara-finder", not me..Bill1170 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:16 amThe D’Allara is a good find, proof of possibility. There’s always a way! I agree that a CBBL Manix variant (XL!) with edge to the handle would be an insta-buy purchase. I so rarely use the choil and the Manix handle is so great, that this would be a big upgrade for me.
A Manix with edge all the way to the handle would be great!! The main reason why I sold my Manix LW was the rather small amount of edge you get for the package in your pocket (and generally to0 short edge for my likings).
A choil-less Manix would solve that by offering more cutting edge and as you say: The handle behind the choil is great concernings ergos!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)