Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

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Bloke
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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Bloke » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:04 pm

curlyhairedboy wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 am
it's my understanding that even H1 will corrode
Everything corrodes. ;)

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Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:13 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:05 pm
Well, obviously this is new territory and we're all still learning. We know that LC is different from H1. We know that galvanic reaction from steel touching steel has its issues. We've also learned that heat treat affects corrosion resistance. We've earned that hardware close to steel has an effect. So I guess we're all involved in this "learning curve".

Hi Mark, The hardware was stainless and coated but we've not had enough history to know for sure. Our H1 pieces used the same hardware for years without issue. I remember when we changed the clip on the H1 pieces to Titan.

Naturally we're interested in all input, so thanx to all of you for your experience and sharing.

sal
This was my first thought as well. Galvanic reaction to something the knife came in contact with keys in the pocket perhaps. As I recall LC200N will exhibit what is being shown here due to galvanic reactions where as H1 is less susceptible to it.

I live on the East Coast of Florida and grew up in Central Florida ( Orlando & Kissimmee ) so I am very aware of not only the Atlantic and the Gulf salt issues but our well water as well P.U. Stinkaroo...

There is another Florida water thing to consider.

Allot of Florida uses Reverse Osmosis to supply water to the public if they do not add enough Ash back into the water the water you receive out of the tap can not only be heavily chlorinated but acidic as well. RO removes minerals and effects PH.

I learned this from one of my clients who is in control of a large Florida Water Control district. It is also why we get slab leaks from our copper hot water lines in the floors and walls in Florida.

I have had many rust resistant steels pit and rust from tap water like S30V, M390 & Elmax for example but never saw this with LC200N in my second release CQI Spydiechef with the Ceramic detente ball.
I have spoken. :)

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby VooDooChild » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:30 pm

Well car and house keys pretty much wont rust at all. At least not the ones I have had. But just about anything in a tackle box will.
Bloke wrote:
curlyhairedboy wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 am
it's my understanding that even H1 will corrode
Everything corrodes. ;)

Image
After about 5 years of constant use and living on my drybag. Which always goes to the beach, and on the boat, and spends the rest of its time in my truck in the hot florida sun, and never sees fresh water. I noticed trace looking rust colored stuff coming from the pivot area of my atlantic salt. Weird thing is though on disassembly there was no corrosion damage to the pivot, or backlock bar, or spring, or backlock bar pivot. It all wiped away with a quick rub of alchohol. After that disassembly im pretty convinced if youre one of the few who can even get some trace rust on an h1 salt (pivot or hardware), it still cant/wont damage the knife. Atleast not within one lifetime.

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Cambertree » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:43 pm

That’s fascinating information about the reverse osmosis Florida tap water, Doeswhatever. :)

I thought I’d add in some info of Larrin’s here on calculated Pitting Resistance Equivalent Numbers (PREN) of common blade steels.

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Cronidur 30 is an LC200N analogue. Also bear in mind that mid level heat treatments were assumed, which may not be the same as what Spyderco use.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/01/14/ ... esistance/

Nonetheless, considering that true ‘marine grade stainlesses’ intended for continual submersion in seawater apparently have a PREN greater than 40, both LC200N and H1 are a fair way off that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_grade_stainless

Personally, I’m never going to exceed the saltwater use that Surfingringo has put his Spydiechef, Caribbean and Pac Salts through, so for my purposes they’re ‘stainless enough’.

And a more recent article from Knife Steel Nerds, on corrosion resistance of common knife steels, where Larrin has normalised his calculations to a 10 point scale:

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In the table above, a 10 indicates no visible corrosion on a 400 grit finished sample, 48 hours after being sprayed with a 1% saltwater solution. A 1 indicates 80% corrosion coverage in the same conditions.

(Interestingly, the bold line indicates an estimation of stainless/non-stainless response. A couple of 'stainless' steels are actually below the line - CTS-XHP and ZDP189.)

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/ ... e-testing/
Last edited by Cambertree on Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby VooDooChild » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:02 pm

There have been plenty of rustproof marine grade stainless steels over the years. The issue has always been a rustproof stainless good enough to make a knife blade out of. Specifically in terms of having an edge and not being a butterknife.
Good info Cambertree.
My issue on that list is that 154cm has a higher PREN value than n680, vanax, and lc200n so...
I guess thats still just one piece of the puzzle and there are variables (assumed heat treat) we still cant account for.
What were we talking about, a spydiechef.
Has this guy cleaned it yet and reused it? Or sent it back? Just curious to see.

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Cambertree » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:14 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:02 pm
There have been plenty of rustproof marine grade stainless steels over the years. The issue has always been a rustproof stainless good enough to make a knife blade out of. Specifically in terms of having an edge and not being a butterknife.
Good info Cambertree.
My issue on that list is that 154cm has a higher PREN value than n680, vanax, and lc200n so...
I guess thats still just one piece of the puzzle and there are variables (assumed heat treat) we still cant account for.
What were we talking about, a spydiechef.
Has this guy cleaned it yet and reused it? Or sent it back? Just curious to see.
Thanks Voodoo - Larrin’s doing some great work for the knife community.

Yeah I’m curious to hear an update too. Based on my experience with my Waterway, I’m inclined to think that if the OP would just hit the rustspots with some polishing paste or toothpaste even, that the issue might clear up.

Yeah, I’m glad to see you noted that weird figure with 154CM as well. It seems like an outlier. Larrin put it down to the high moly content influencing the calculations. I don’t have enough experience with the steel to know if it’s borne out in actual real world stainlessness.

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Sharkfisher51 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:39 pm

I'll get the UPC/ date code picture tomorrow. The rest of the knife held up beautifully, clip, titanium, hardware... awesome!

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby sal » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:06 pm

The current model has a ceramic ball.

sal

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby ladybug93 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:39 pm

Sumdumguy wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:49 pm
I'm putting my money on surface contamination from manufacturing. Take some sandpaper to the blade and clean it up, then take it out in the brine again and see what happens.

After a year of neglect, my Caribbean had zero rust on the blade and a little on the liners. I have since cleaned it all off and will report back next year when I take it apart again. You could probably give us some insight fairly quickly ;)
i came to say the same thing. i carry my native salt in the pacific all the time and hardly ever rinse it. i have had a couple of spots show up on the edge, but i’m guessing it’s from metal transfer from using the sharpmaker. have you tried rubbing it off?

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby ugaarguy » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:37 pm

phaust wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:34 am
Not meant towards anyone in particular and not aimed at this thread as much as the others on LC200N and models using it, I'm sure why whether it is rustproof has ever even been a discussion point honestly (besides as brought up here, that Spyderco claims so in marketing material). The manufacturer itself says it's not rustproof, but of "superior corrosion resistance". That's from the data sheet. They have a corrosion resistance chart and all (and LC200N doesn't hit infinity :p). If it was rustproof, they'd sell it on that.

It also seemed very strange so much Spyderco material came out contradicting that. Also a bit alarming that it is a surprise to the company that differing hardnesses resulting in differing corrosion resistance, considering the manufacturer makes sure to mention hardness for each corrosion resistance, and it's not a thing unique to just this steel.

Edit, another line from the data sheet: "Compared to standard tool steels like 1.2316, 1.4112, and 1.4125 LC 200 N exhibits higher corrosion resistance". So it's better, not 100% corrosion resistant.
This isn't directed at you, but just an interesting contrast.

The SpydieChef's description on the main Spydrco website states (as of this posting time) "A proud member of Spyderco’s Salt Series™ of ultra-corrosion-resistant knives, the Spydiechef features a gracefully curved blade crafted from LC200N. This state-of-the-art nitrogen-based alloy is extremely corrosion resistant...". My SpydieChef's packing insert states "superior corrosion resistance".

Does a salt series knife have to be totally impervious to rust, or just offer an extremely high level of corrosion resistance, as the SpydieChef has been demonstrated to do?

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby sal » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:01 am

We've been making "extremely corrosion resistant" models for many years and we ares still learning much. Eg: we learned that the Gulf after the oil spill had different effects than other salt water areas. We're learning about Galvanic reactions. We're learning about different heat treat effects. So we're consistently trying to produce models that best serve the needs of those in "Caustic" environments, The learning process continues.

Each time we add a new material, like LC, the game changes.

This particular model seems to have a steel ball bearing. Could be older stock? Sharkfisher can send it to us for a "look-see"?

sal

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Ankerson » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:40 am

Bloke wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:04 pm
curlyhairedboy wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 am
it's my understanding that even H1 will corrode
Everything corrodes. ;)

Image



EXACTLY....

It's Stain-LESS

NOT stainless as in rust proof.....

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby JRinFL » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:47 am

I think some may have confused the casual terms "practically rust proof" and "essentially rust proof" with the absolute term "100% rust proof". For me and my uses both H1 and LC200N are "practically rust proof", FWIW.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder:

Sharkfisher51
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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Sharkfisher51 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:45 pm

Here's the UPC on the box, I'm not sure what to look for? Can someone decode this?
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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby ladybug93 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:43 pm

i cleaned up a manix xl (s30v) for a friend of mine after he accidentally took it in the ocean and let it sit for a couple weeks. it was a mess. every bit of it was far worse than what i'm seeing here and it almost completely wiped off with oil. i didn't need any sandpaper or anything. maybe try to clean it and see if it happens again. as i said before, i carry my native salt into the ocean all the time and have never had anything like this on it.

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Cambertree » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:34 pm

Sharkfisher51 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:45 pm
Here's the UPC on the box, I'm not sure what to look for? Can someone decode this?
Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but that appears to be new stock - 'IS' is September '19 production if I'm not mistaken?

I'm no expert on the Spydiechef, but the most recent run would have a ceramic bearing as Sal said. Your knife has the new black hardware as well.

As a few people have mentioned, it's quite possible that those rust spots are just from surface contamination of minute particles of non stainless steel. The area around the ceramic ball detent may be tooling residue.

Have you tried cleaning it with some polishing paste? If you don't have any, try some toothpaste and an old toothbrush. ;)

If it comes off clean, take it in the sea or immerse it in water again. My Waterway was absolutely fine after cleaning those specks off, as mentioned above.

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:59 am

Sharkfisher51 the letters on the right side of the box are the date code. The first letter is the month and second letter is the year. The S indicates your knife was made in 2019. So you have a cqi version which should have a ceramic detent ball. We sort of assumed you did but just wanted to make sure you didnt get an old one somehow. There are some unlikely possibilities, but its more than likely that what pretty much everyone on here has been saying is whats going on with your knife. And thats that it has contamination from the factory during the assembly process. And the solution remains the same. Clean it and continue to use it. It is very unlikely to have this problem again if completely cleaned. I may even suggest disassembling and cleaning it but that is at your discretion.
As a personal recommendation I would suggest at some point next year you check out the spyderco Siren and the upcoming pacific salt 2. The siren is a US made lc200n salt series based largely around fishing. And the pacific salt with a serrated edge can pretty much do anything. I really think if you got those 2 knives for fishing and beach use, and had the spydiechef as a do everything edc, which is what I find it excels at, you would be set for life. I can also tell you from personal experience its much safer to carry a backlock in boardshort pockets than pretty much all of the other lock types, but that is a different discussion. Good luck and I would like to hear an update some time in the future after the knife has been cleaned and reused to see how its performing.

To speak liberally about some of the things mentioned in this thread. Yes lc200n is more than cut out for salt series use. Im making this claim based off of my native salt. Ive been using it in the saltwater alot since the beginning of the year, neglecting and not cleaning it, and its holding up perfectly fine. The issue is always going to be luck of the draw on contamination from the factory, along with so many other variables. Lets also keep in mind that very recently the salt series has been growing alot. We have different knives with different materials and designs coming out of 3 different factories so theres going to be ALOT of variables here. Frn/g10/titanium, some have liners some dont, some have this lock type vs that lock type, this steel vs that steel, different hardware, different coatings, different factories, etc. Its these variables that we have to keep an eye on going into the future. Obviously linerless frn is going to be pretty trouble free in terms of stuff like galvanic reactions. Someone mentioned what superior level of corrosion resistance the salt series needs to be on. As the salt series grows I think we will see a range of corrosion. Some things at the very top, and some things at perhaps 90 percent. I would say though, with whats come to be expected of the salt series, none of them should have any issues after just a day in saltwater. I think Sharkfisher51 just got unlucky and got a fairly contaminated knife out of the box. From alot of personal experience, even if the salt series isnt perfect, I can tell you theres nothing on the market that can realistically compete with it. So lets all just keep testing in the real world and see how it goes.

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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby araneae » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:22 am

I'm curious about contamination too, cleaning with a metal polish or non-abrasive cleaner should take the rust off and prep it for a second trial. Sending it in to Sal is the best way to get real answers.

I do believe the OP is confusing a blade hq video that tested an H1 Dragonfly Salt model, not LC200N.
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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby Evil D » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:10 am

I live too far from salt water to worry about it but I do work in all weather types and there are days when I'm soaked to the skin and my knife is in my pocket, often on hot summer days where I'm also sweating along with the rain. I've had S90/110V spot rust on days like that but so far LC200N has been totally spotless for me. I don't think I've carried my H1 Dragonfly enough in those kinds of conditions but my Autonomy has been squeaky clean too but it's also DLC on top of H1 so I wouldn't expect anything less.
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Re: Spydiechef Rusted After First Use

Postby StuntZombie » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:59 am

I'm voting for surface contamination on the blade itself, likely from the belt they used to grind the blade. Looking at my Salt 2, there's rust in the "1" of the H1 engraving, and I'm pretty certain it's due to contamination from what ever tool they use to mark the blade.

When we first got some large fiberglass tanks in at work, my boss was surprised to find rust spots popping up all over them after a couple months of use. Then I explained it was likely left over material from whatever grinder they happened to use to finish them.
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