The low grit sharpening thread

[Pelagic]

Strange stuff.

When I sharpen my S30V Manix XL on my diamond sharpmaker rods, I find it difficult to get acleanly shaving edge.

I tried out my BD1 Ronin 2 and managed to get it hair popping sharp off the diamond rods.

Not sure why the Ronin seems to get so much sharper off the same stones but it's a really nice feeling edge. Very toothy but push cuts through things pretty well.

I've been debating what sort of finish I'm going to give my VG10 Police 4. Might try out the diamond edge and see if it responds as well as BD1.

That's semi-typical. S30V varies in sharpening response. Some turn out well and some seem like they have very little apex stability, as if the apex just crumbles once it reaches a certain width/keenness. Any skilled sharpener can make s30v work but it's not what I'd call a "sharpener's steel". BD1 gets extremely sharp easily and so does VG-10. I think whatever edge you like on BD1 you'll also like on VG-10.

[jpm2]

Strange stuff.

When I sharpen my S30V Manix XL on my diamond sharpmaker rods, I find it difficult to get acleanly shaving edge.

I tried out my BD1 Ronin 2 and managed to get it hair popping sharp off the diamond rods.

Not sure why the Ronin seems to get so much sharper off the same stones but it's a really nice feeling edge. Very toothy but push cuts through things pretty well.

I assume the manix xl has been sharpened way past the factory apex, yes?
If so, do you have a coarse diamond plate you can sharpen it on to compare to the sharpmaker rods?

I just sharpened a sage1 on a fairly new eze lap coarse plate, it produced a nice clean shaving edge. I don't have sharpmaker rods to compare.

[vivi]

Strange stuff.

When I sharpen my S30V Manix XL on my diamond sharpmaker rods, I find it difficult to get acleanly shaving edge.

I tried out my BD1 Ronin 2 and managed to get it hair popping sharp off the diamond rods.

Not sure why the Ronin seems to get so much sharper off the same stones but it's a really nice feeling edge. Very toothy but push cuts through things pretty well.

I assume the manix xl has been sharpened way past the factory apex, yes?
If so, do you have a coarse diamond plate you can sharpen it on to compare to the sharpmaker rods?

I just sharpened a sage1 on a fairly new eze lap coarse plate, it produced a nice clean shaving edge. I don't have sharpmaker rods to compare.

This Manix XL easily gets hair popping sharp on my extra coarse dmt.

bd1 sharpens more easily for me, but I've always been able to get the two steels equally sharp using the medium or fine stones from spyderco.

this is the first time I've seen the steels reach noticeably different levels of sharpness off the same grit. It's weird. I can get the Manix XL very sharp on the diamond rods, but the Ronin is on a different level.

By the way I'm ordering a fresh DMT plate today. I'm debating between the 8" and 11" in extra coarse. Continuous surface this time so my tips don't get caught up in those silly holes. Thought about getting an XX Coarse to replace the one I loaned out, but I like the X Coarse for sharpening a lot more than the XX.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Rare opportunity just presented itself, a coworker of mine found a Ken Onion designed Zero Tolerance flipper in S30V. It was laying on the street looks like it was ran over at-least once. Nice Knife has a nice dlc on it's blade, Blade is is chipped and dull someone used this as a worker. Any way what great luck my Atoma 140 and 1200 come in Tuesday night. This should work great for re-profiling the knife and swiftly also. Will take some before and after pics.

[jpm2]

Strange stuff.
When I sharpen my S30V Manix XL on my diamond sharpmaker rods, I find it difficult to get acleanly shaving edge.
I tried out my BD1 Ronin 2 and managed to get it hair popping sharp off the diamond rods.
Not sure why the Ronin seems to get so much sharper off the same stones but it's a really nice feeling edge. Very toothy but push cuts through things pretty well.

I assume the manix xl has been sharpened way past the factory apex, yes?
If so, do you have a coarse diamond plate you can sharpen it on to compare to the sharpmaker rods?
I just sharpened a sage1 on a fairly new eze lap coarse plate, it produced a nice clean shaving edge. I don't have sharpmaker rods to compare.

This Manix XL easily gets hair popping sharp on my extra coarse dmt.
bd1 sharpens more easily for me, but I've always been able to get the two steels equally sharp using the medium or fine stones from spyderco.
this is the first time I've seen the steels reach noticeably different levels of sharpness off the same grit. It's weird. I can get the Manix XL very sharp on the diamond rods, but the Ronin is on a different level.

By the way I'm ordering a fresh DMT plate today. I'm debating between the 8" and 11" in extra coarse. Continuous surface this time so my tips don't get caught up in those silly holes. Thought about getting an XX Coarse to replace the one I loaned out, but I like the X Coarse for sharpening a lot more than the XX.

That's strange indeed. How well broken in are the diamond sharpmaker rods?

All my diamond plates at home are continuous, the largest 6x2. My employer bought me this DMT in C/F, for use at work.
https://www.dmtonlinestore.com/10-DuoSh ... -P7C2.aspx
I like the size, but dislike the interrupted surface. It gets the job done, but awkward compared to my continuous plates.
It seems eze lap coarse is equivalent to dmt x-coarse.

[vivi]

Strange stuff.
When I sharpen my S30V Manix XL on my diamond sharpmaker rods, I find it difficult to get acleanly shaving edge.
I tried out my BD1 Ronin 2 and managed to get it hair popping sharp off the diamond rods.
Not sure why the Ronin seems to get so much sharper off the same stones but it's a really nice feeling edge. Very toothy but push cuts through things pretty well.

I assume the manix xl has been sharpened way past the factory apex, yes?
If so, do you have a coarse diamond plate you can sharpen it on to compare to the sharpmaker rods?
I just sharpened a sage1 on a fairly new eze lap coarse plate, it produced a nice clean shaving edge. I don't have sharpmaker rods to compare.

This Manix XL easily gets hair popping sharp on my extra coarse dmt.
bd1 sharpens more easily for me, but I've always been able to get the two steels equally sharp using the medium or fine stones from spyderco.
this is the first time I've seen the steels reach noticeably different levels of sharpness off the same grit. It's weird. I can get the Manix XL very sharp on the diamond rods, but the Ronin is on a different level.

By the way I'm ordering a fresh DMT plate today. I'm debating between the 8" and 11" in extra coarse. Continuous surface this time so my tips don't get caught up in those silly holes. Thought about getting an XX Coarse to replace the one I loaned out, but I like the X Coarse for sharpening a lot more than the XX.

That's strange indeed. How well broken in are the diamond sharpmaker rods?

All my diamond plates at home are continuous, the largest 6x2. My employer bought me this DMT in C/F, for use at work.
https://www.dmtonlinestore.com/10-DuoSh ... -P7C2.aspx
I like the size, but dislike the interrupted surface. It gets the job done, but awkward compared to my continuous plates.
It seems eze lap coarse is equivalent to dmt x-coarse.

I have a 6" x coarse and fine and they feel a little undersized for larger knives. Definitely getting continuous this time.

[Wartstein]

The following post by Vivi and my reply are actually from the "Thank you Sal" thread (topic: Green Pac Salt ffg viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87966&p=1465351#p1465351),
but I thought they´d fit here better - and, Vivi, should you choose to reply you perhaps want to do that in THIS thread - ?

VIVIS POST (quote)

" I've actually been moving away from SE.

I've found a PE knife sharpened with a very coarse finish (200-400 grit) has most the benefits of SE plus the benefits of PE.

They bite into materials aggressively like a SE knife.

They work better for cutting things on flat surfaces, like a cutting board.

I can repair edge damage more easily.

I can utilize my belt sander.

Reprofiling by hand is easier.

I enjoy sharpening PE more.

Overall I find plain edged knives with a very low grit edge to be a little more versatile than serrated knives or plain edged knives with a polished edge. I can get the aggressive slicing and sticky sharp edge I like from SE knives while still being able to push cut on a flat surface and choose from a wide variety of sharpening mediums."

MY (Wartsteins) reply

"That´s most interesting to me (and I know we´ve discussed it elsewhere already):

I came to like ffg SE over PE really by surprise and practically without having read beforehand how other folks (positively) think about SE, so I think I may say I was not biased much, but just - at first even reluctantly - convinced by the superior performance of my Endela SE (even in tasks like whittling wood, which for me works better with SE than PE due to the chisel grind of the former)

Now your "low grit PE" - approach really has intrigued me, I tried it as good as I could on my VG10 Stretch 1 and it worked out pretty well.
Still, as I´ve said in our previous discussion elsewhere: At this point I am of the opinion that SE can give one the "best of both worlds":
1.) The very aggressive bite into material (think of cutting a plastic bottle without puncturing it with the tip initially) due to the spikes of the serrations (you showed that low grit sharpened PE can do that too)
2.) STILL a very fine, polished, "high grit sharpened", thinnest-paper-slicing edge in the scallops between the spikes.

- In my use SE also works better for food prep (more outdoorsy, not professional of course) than PE (think of cutting a loaf of bread or a tomato)
- Cutting on a board: I can see that and why PE generally works better there, but in order to initiate cuts in stuff that gets cut on a board (like, again, tomatoes) one has to sharpen a PE knife more often I figure, while the spikes of SE will do that puncturing to initiate a cut even if the SE knife is pretty dull
- In my limited experience: While I find touching up SE a bit easier and faster than PE, I am totally with you when it comes to actual reprofiling or edge repair. Harder to do with SE, especially with a sharpmaker where one can additionally wear down the corner of the rod pretty fast (since it is just the corner that can be used for SE)
- AND: It is just a fact that I can´t "low grit" sharpen PE the way you can. Firstly, I don´t have your skills and experience, secondly I don´t have the very low grit stones and especially not the stropping devices you have - so a PE knife "low grip" sharpended "vivi-ish" will most likely be closer to SE performance than anything I could achieve..."

[vivi]

VIVIS POST (quote)

" I've actually been moving away from SE.

I've found a PE knife sharpened with a very coarse finish (200-400 grit) has most the benefits of SE plus the benefits of PE.

They bite into materials aggressively like a SE knife.

They work better for cutting things on flat surfaces, like a cutting board.

I can repair edge damage more easily.

I can utilize my belt sander.

Reprofiling by hand is easier.

I enjoy sharpening PE more.

Overall I find plain edged knives with a very low grit edge to be a little more versatile than serrated knives or plain edged knives with a polished edge. I can get the aggressive slicing and sticky sharp edge I like from SE knives while still being able to push cut on a flat surface and choose from a wide variety of sharpening mediums."

MY (Wartsteins) reply

"That´s most interesting to me (and I know we´ve discussed it elsewhere already):

I came to like ffg SE over PE really by surprise and practically without having read beforehand how other folks (positively) think about SE, so I think I may say I was not biased much, but just - at first even reluctantly - convinced by the superior performance of my Endela SE (even in tasks like whittling wood, which for me works better with SE than PE due to the chisel grind of the former)

Now your "low grit PE" - approach really has intrigued me, I tried it as good as I could on my VG10 Stretch 1 and it worked out pretty well.
Still, as I´ve said in our previous discussion elsewhere: At this point I am of the opinion that SE can give one the "best of both worlds":
1.) The very aggressive bite into material (think of cutting a plastic bottle without puncturing it with the tip initially) due to the spikes of the serrations (you showed that low grit sharpened PE can do that too)
2.) STILL a very fine, polished, "high grit sharpened", thinnest-paper-slicing edge in the scallops between the spikes.

- In my use SE also works better for food prep (more outdoorsy, not professional of course) than PE (think of cutting a loaf of bread or a tomato)
- Cutting on a board: I can see that and why PE generally works better there, but in order to initiate cuts in stuff that gets cut on a board (like, again, tomatoes) one has to sharpen a PE knife more often I figure, while the spikes of SE will do that puncturing to initiate a cut even if the SE knife is pretty dull
- In my limited experience: While I find touching up SE a bit easier and faster than PE, I am totally with you when it comes to actual reprofiling or edge repair. Harder to do with SE, especially with a sharpmaker where one can additionally wear down the corner of the rod pretty fast (since it is just the corner that can be used for SE)
- AND: It is just a fact that I can´t "low grit" sharpen PE the way you can. Firstly, I don´t have your skills and experience, secondly I don´t have the very low grit stones and especially not the stropping devices you have - so a PE knife "low grip" sharpended "vivi-ish" will most likely be closer to SE performance than anything I could achieve..."

Wartstein, good suggestion taking our discussion here.

First of all my SE vs PE preferences have been primarily formed through saber ground Pacific Salts. Off the top of my head the only FFG SE blade I currently own is a Victorinox One Handed Trekker. One day I'll get a FFG LC200N Pacific in SE.

I hated serrations in the past based on my experiences with them. Thinking back, they were dull, and would catch and snag and tear materials more than cut them.

I have had a SE Tasman Salt since they came out, but that was a poorly maintained beater for me. It was also more of a rip and tear knife.

I think it was 2017 when I got my first SE Pacific Salt. I told myself I'd carry it for two weeks and re-evaluate SE Spydercos, then planned to sell it. It lasted a lot more than two weeks in my pockets, that's for sure.

SE does have the advantage that you can have extremely polished finished while still retaining excellent slicing aggression.

However, coarse PE knives can still have good push cutting action. I can get scrape shaving off 200 grit, and clean shaving off 300 & 400 grit. Combining that with diamond loaded strops I can get a 300-400 grit edge sharp enough to pop arm hairs and push cut paper.

SE knives do work well for cutting up food. My PE knives have no issues slicing baguettes (I bake my own at home) or tomatoes (I slice over 200 a week with my PE chef knife run at a higher polish - coarse edges slice them even more easily). I find PE works a little better on cutting boards with certain foods, though with some things like apples it doesn't really matter. If I were carrying a knife solely for food prep though, I'd give the nod to PE - but the difference isn't so great I couldn't use SE.

- Cutting on a board: I can see that and why PE generally works better there, but in order to initiate cuts in stuff that gets cut on a board (like, again, tomatoes) one has to sharpen a PE knife more often I figure, while the spikes of SE will do that puncturing to initiate a cut even if the SE knife is pretty dull

This is the crux of why I like low grit edges. Because this doesn't happen with them.

At work with my polished chef knife, if it gets dulled chances are it would skim across the skin of a ripe tomato.

With one of my pocket knives sharpened to 200-300 grit, I can dull them to where there is zero scrape shaving ability, but they will still effortlessly slice a ripe tomatoe.

The issue I have with polished edges is two fold. They require more time and $$ to apply, and they require more time to maintain at a high level of performance.

Coarse edges can be applied with a single stone, which is faster and cheaper.

They also maintain their usefulness much, much longer than polished edges.

It's just like how everyone knows a dulled SE knife can still be pretty useful.

Coarse edges retain the peaks and valleys edge shape long past shaving sharpness being gone. There is no need to sharpen them as often for that reason.

Additionally there is a massively broader selection of abrasives that work with PE knives VS the very limited number of SE sharpening tools.

edit:



I just compared my two current favorites. My M4 Manix sharpened to 200 or 300 grit then stropped with 40 micron diamond paste, vs a hair popping sharp FFG LC200N Pacific Salt 2 with a polished finish from the factory stropped on 1 micron diamond paste.

If I run my fingernail down the length of the edge of the Manix, it feels rough and gritty. If I do the same on the Pacific, it feels perfectly smooth.

Both showed equal shaving ability, easily popping hairs off my left forearm.

They both cut well, but they cut differently. The Pacific Salt will glide through materials on a push cut more easily, while the Manix will push through material more aggressively during a slicing motion.

[rhaug]

I came across this thread and decided to give it a try.

I’ve been thinking that the best edge would only be achieved from a progression from coarse to fine stones, the finer the better.

In my case, the finest would be a 3000 grit Naniwa pro.

The other day, I stayed on my 400 grit Naniwa pro and focused on light pressure and a consistent edge. I do convex by the way, don’t care for V-edges, and freehand only. Then just stropped the burr off on the leathe with a 1 micron diamond spray.

Still rather inexperienced with sharpening, but I must say the result was wonderful. Got a very nice working edge on my kitchen knifes with a great “bite” that grabs those tomatoes etc. and much faster than going through multiple grit levels. It’s a joy to work with!

So thanks for sharing this approach, it’s saving me time which will make me sharpen more often and save me money buying any finer stones!

[vivi]

Confession time.

M4 Chief
Rex 45 Chief
LC200N Pacific Salt 2
S30V Military
SE H1 Pacific Salt
SE BD1N zcut

What do these knives have in common?

I've touched all of them up with fine and ultrafine rods over the past few weeks.

I find it healthy in life to mix things up and give things another try, and see if ones perspective is any different.

I found in this context, my perspective has not changed.

Fine to Ultrafine edges stropped on 1 micron diamond paste are fun. They send arm hairs into orbit with a feather touch, and push cut through most anything with ease.

For a day or two.

Today I broke down a large double layer cardboard box. About 6' long, 2' wide, 1.5' deep.

The knife popped hairs prior to the task, and struggled to shave after.

My PE LC Pacific Salt has been my work knife lately. The high polish edge worked nice to slice open plastic packages, which is what I use work knives for the most.

Then I broke down a small box and it needed sharpening after the day was over.

I have been incredibly unimpressed with the edge retention of these knives with a polished edge.

Rex 45 fared the best out of them all, but even with the Chief the edge holding was a far cry from my coarser edges.

This weekend I'm knocking them all down in grit. Taking some to 200-300 grit, might use the medium rods on some, but I'm done with the fine rods for now.

I gave polished edges another shot,and the experience reinforced everything I've written in this thread. I can cut my sharpening time in 1/4 by dropping the grits.

[TkoK83Spy]

Nice of you to come to your senses after such a crazy idea haha!

It really is incredible, the difference between the two types of finishes and how they last. I couldn't believe it the first time I left a 300 grit finish on my blade.

A couple years ago I took my BBS M390 Para 3 to a mirror finish. It was crazy sharp, like you mentioned with yours. But after 2 or 3 days working in the warehouse, it seemed to have dulled quickly and certainly wouldn't grab at material and would slide off cuts of pallet strapping, where as a coarse finish would grab and slice even if the apex is no longer shaving sharp.

That's all it took for me! COARSE EDGE FINISHES FOR EVVVVAAA :p

[S-3 ranch]

I am in the coarse mode now as every knife steel has a different type of coarseness it’s designed for!
All my “tool” steel like crew , vasco, 20cv, D2 are designed for cutting dyes and respond to less refined edge so I
1. 600 grit diamond
2. Black formax dry bar loaded strop
3 . White formax loaded strop
4 1 or.5 micron load on bass wood finish

This produces a very long lasting aggressive edge! However I am working on trying a new duel edge that is being scientifically tested and proofed https://youtu.be/FruwVRSmhWA
By science of sharp https://scienceofsharp.com/2021/06/15/d ... harpening/
As I am open minded , as tool steel of high hrc might benefit from “ toothy “ or duel

[vivi]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=s4igtwiBK1o.

Here's a cutting demo with a 200 grit edge on PE H1.

I think it does a good job of showing how these coarse edges continue to show excellent cutting abilities even after being dulled to the point shaving ability is gone.

Here's a video showing how the sharpness can be restored in 90 seconds.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=p1vzDnHZI-M

Eventually I'll repeat this test with a PE LC200N Pacific Salt.

[Brock O Lee]

Nice test Vivi!

Cliff Stamp had similar observations years ago about cutting cardboard with a coarse edge vs polished edge. Something along the line of “different edge finishes and angles have a bigger effect than different blade steels”. It is a generalisation, but it holds true for cutting soft material like cardboard, and typical EDC stuff I cut.

Carving hard wood or bronze rods will probably not end well for that coarse edge, so there is definitely a place for the more polished edges.

I am a big fan of these coarser, grabbier, lower maintenance edges for EDC.

[FK]

Cliff Stamp did quite a bit of research and testing with low grit sharpening and edge retention in 2014,,,, here is his discussion.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/ ... 143,page=3

Very interesting read with nice photographs of actual edge wear.
Draw your own conclusions.

Coarse sharpening on YouTube,, note 2012 publishing dates
https://youtu.be/OPGGo3W15HQ
https://youtu.be/mSt2mCWGFII

Edge retention slicing cardboard DMT X-Coarse (2015)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66520

Regards,
FK

[vivi]

Yep, Cliff championed this idea for years. I could have saved myself a lot of time by paying closer attention.

Back in the day when I read a lot of his reviews, my idea of a coarse edge was the medium sharpmaker rods or my DMT Fine. Compared to ultrafine ceramics they were more coarse, but those two are still a far cry from 200 grit.

This is one reason I made this thread. Go on most knife forums and you see endless mirror polished edges. They were popular 20 years ago too, and I fell into the trap of wasting hours of my life polishing bevels.

Now there are certainly times where a polished edge is more suitable for a given task.Like Brock mentioned, carving wood is one.

But what I've learned is there is basically no reason outside of appearance to polish the full bevel. Keep it coarse and polish just the apex and you can get the same cutting ability in 1/4 the time.

[JRinFL]

I have some low grit triangle stone files from Congress Tools that should fit in the Sharpmaker base. Would these be acceptable for a low grit test, or is the exact orientation of the scratch marks critical to low grit sharpening?

[vivi]

I have some low grit triangle stone files from Congress Tools that should fit in the Sharpmaker base. Would these be acceptable for a low grit test, or is the exact orientation of the scratch marks critical to low grit sharpening?

That would work fine. I have some of their stones between 80 and 600 grit that I used for experimenting with low grit edges on SE knives.

I'm not the most educated on scratch patterns to be honest.

I do know the scratch pattern influences slicing. If you look at this edge, for example:



You'll see the pattern is diagonal, kind of like it's going from the top of the tip to the bottom of the heel.

Now if I take this knife and slice straight down into cardboard, I notice something.

Slicing going from tip to heel is more efficient than slicing from heel to tip, all else being equal.

So if you prefer slicing from heel to tip like most do, my experience tells me you'd have a more effective edge sharpening tip to heel rather than heel to tip.

[kobold]

Nice test Vivi!

Cliff Stamp had similar observations years ago about cutting cardboard with a coarse edge vs polished edge. Something along the line of “different edge finishes and angles have a bigger effect than different blade steels”. It is a generalisation, but it holds true for cutting soft material like cardboard, and typical EDC stuff I cut.

Carving hard wood or bronze rods will probably not end well for that coarse edge, so there is definitely a place for the more polished edges.

I am a big fan of these coarser, grabbier, lower maintenance edges for EDC.

Maybe it is a good strategy to keep the knife at low grit, and carry a doublestuff for when we need to cut hard materials like that?

[vivi]

Nice test Vivi!

Cliff Stamp had similar observations years ago about cutting cardboard with a coarse edge vs polished edge. Something along the line of “different edge finishes and angles have a bigger effect than different blade steels”. It is a generalisation, but it holds true for cutting soft material like cardboard, and typical EDC stuff I cut.

Carving hard wood or bronze rods will probably not end well for that coarse edge, so there is definitely a place for the more polished edges.

I am a big fan of these coarser, grabbier, lower maintenance edges for EDC.

Maybe it is a good strategy to keep the knife at low grit, and carry a doublestuff for when we need to cut hard materials like that?

No need IMO. 200 grit edges aren't ideal for wood carving, but my Pacific Salt will still work fine for making a featherstick or pointing a roasting stick. For a dedicated carver I'd obviously use a higher grit but for a quick job 200 grit will do fine.

https://streamable.com/k622mn