Back lock Lock rock

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crazywednesday
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Back lock Lock rock

Postby crazywednesday » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:33 am

Its almost fun to have your child say three times fast. I have a couple of back lock spyderco's. They all have some lock rock to some degree. I dont have any Golden made ones. I also have never really compared them to other manufactures. What are your issues with "lock rock"? Is it safety, anal retentiveness, fear of the unkown, or something else? please explain. To me, its so minimal I never think about it.
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VooDooChild
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:49 am

Since I just posted this a few minutes ago on another discussion.

"None of my native 5s or the chief have lock rock. I cant recall any review or post of someone having it or being able to detect it. The newer backlocks on the golden made models is a totally different animal than what you would get with the delica/endura series. The tolerances and engineering that went into the new golden made backlocks of the last few years are impressive. Every time I use one I can tell just how well thought out they are, and why they took a long time to get to this level. If someone hasnt tried one I would say give it a shot. If its still not to their liking theres other great options as well."
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"Ok. In the spirit of honesty I just grabbed my chief and really tried to see if I could detect some and it does have a hair of lock rock. Not nearly as bad as my endura 4. I should have checked before posting. I cartainly havent detected it in use. I dont detect any in my native 5s though. There could be other examples though that have it so I cant say ots not possible, I dont really feel like doing a long search right now. The chief is big. Any big back lock can be hard to eliminate lock rock on. I also prefer backlocks over all other lock types so I could have some bias coming in.
Doesnt the chaparral lightweight have an internal stop pin so it cant have lock rock?"
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby crazywednesday » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:58 am

Thanks VooDoo! Your post is what inspired me to create this thread. I love Golden models too, and others. Im actually looking for reasons why lock rock is the worst thing ever. Just trying to understand and expand my mind here.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:17 am

I get you. I also assumed you might have been referencing what I said as the thread popped up right after I posted it. As someone who prefers back locks, or more specifically spydercos mid back locks that still allow for ambidextrous one hand opening and closing due to them being purposely designed that way. I would have to say lock rock is something I dont make any sort of fuss over.
For others it might be a deal breaker. If I had a really bad example it would probably annoy me. But my worst example is my endura 4 and its not nearly bad enough for me to send it up the river.
What about internal stop pins? What about the triad lock? Should these things become a necessary evolution of the backlock design, or is it not worth it to overcomplicate a simple design that works. The native 5s lock is Im sure plenty strong enough, and I would rather not overcomplicate with an internal pin. Others however may totally disagree. But I really feel spyderco nailed it with that one.
There are other aspects of the backlock design that I could bring up, but they dont relate to lock rock, so I wont.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby vivi » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:21 am

Mine have vertical rock.

It's never been an issue. It does not affect the function of the knife. The lock has never failed and the rock isn't typically noticeable in use.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby PeaceInOurTime » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:16 am

I don't worry about it and even expect a small amount of rock with back locks. Is it worth having a stop pin? IMO, yes, but I also appreciate the simplicity of normal back locks (mid-locks). I don't have a hard opinion either way.

My Native 5 lw has no rock whatsoever, my Endura 4 lw has a very small amount, my past Dragonfly lw had slightly more than the Endura, and my Car Cara 2 lw has noticable rock in use. I've never experienced a back lock failure, even with significant rock in a Cara Cara 2 after some hard use testing (abuse).

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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Ez556 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:22 am

My Dragonfly has pretty bad rock after around a year of work duty, and if it’s stabbed into cardboard I can flex it up and down probably 5 degrees with my index finger against the choil and my thumb on the butt applying not a great deal of force. I haven’t tried, but if I put a tiny bit more force I feel like the lock or handle is gonna fail. I still use it, but a Native LW is on deck to replace it. I’m not a fan to say the least. I’m glad to hear the Golden backlock don’t exhibit this, that was what I was betting on. I like the design of the Chaparral with the stop pin integral to the blade that runs in the track in the liners.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Sharp Guy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:42 am

I have a whole bunch of Spyderco back/mid locks. Only about a 1/3 of them have any movement and I really have to pull up hard on most of those to notice. Even then it's only a tiny wiggle and nothing I've felt while using them. This is on a couple of my Dragonflys, a couple Delicas, and a Caly 3.5. None of my Native 5s, Chaparrals, Caly 3, or Stretch do it. Not even the slightest wiggle from those.

I've read that flicking open back locks is hard on the lock face and a good way to induce lock rock. I've never really tried to flick open a back lock due to the spring but possibly inducing lock rock is another reason I don't try.

EDIT: I just checked a few knives I have temporarily stashed away. My Lil' Matriarch is rock solid but my Dragonfly HB Salt, Baby Jess Horn, Calypso Jr have a little rock. Again, nothing that I'd really notice while actually cutting. So out of about 30 back locks I have maybe 10 that have a little wiggle.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby The Mastiff » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:25 am

I've carried Spyderco backlocks since 92. In that time I've never had one break, fail or wear out. Can I find some movement if I deliberately look for it? Maybe, maybe not. I dunno. They don't need to change the design of the older ones like my Enduras because there is no problem with them in use. The newer designs are different enough to where traditional "lock rock" isn't there. I'm happy with both.

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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Doc Dan » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:36 am

I have one Spyderco with minimal movement if I cut hard. Nothing to worry about. I’ve got a Benchmade that makes you wonder because the lock rock is so bad. A little is nothing, and can be advantageous to keep from too much unintended force.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Pelagic » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:41 am

My chief certainly has a small amount of lock rock. No biggie though.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Evil D » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:03 pm

I think the only one I have that doesn't have some "lock bar lift" is my Native LW. I did have a Stretch that had such bad up and down jiggle that I sent it back and they found it was defective. I also had a used Military that had a bit but who knows what it was put through before I got it.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:19 pm

The only Spyderco with a mid lock I have that exhibits absolutely no lock rock is the Spyderco Stretch combo blade metal pinned construction, Each and every mid lock Spyderco from the Salt, Pacific salt2, native, multiple hawkbills etc... I own besides this one does including the native Chief exhibit varying degrees of lock rock new out of the box. Some like the Endura have allot of this and the question I have is why?

Is it because of screw construction? I know it has nothing to do with liner or liner less construction. If it is due to screw construction this makes sense as the Stretch I referenced is the only one with pinned construction.

My Buck110 a full lock back does not exhibit this and I own more than one of these none of them rock. They are also pinned construction.

Wonder if that is it? Pressed and pinned without FRN or G10 = much easier to get closer stable tolerances?

I do not like the lock rock wish it were not present, but make the compromise for the great ergonomics and cutting ability of the various models for the tools they are.

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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby vivi » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:32 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:19 pm
The only Spyderco with a mid lock I have that exhibits absolutely no lock rock is the Spyderco Stretch combo blade metal pinned construction, Each and every mid lock Spyderco from the Salt, Pacific salt2, native, multiple hawkbills etc... I own besides this one does including the native Chief exhibit varying degrees of lock rock new out of the box. Some like the Endura have allot of this and the question I have is why?

Is it because of screw construction? I know it has nothing to do with liner or liner less construction. If it is due to screw construction this makes sense as the Stretch I referenced is the only one with pinned construction.

My Buck110 a full lock back does not exhibit this and I own more than one of these none of them rock. They are also pinned construction.

Wonder if that is it? Pressed and pinned without FRN or G10 = much easier to get closer stable tolerances?

I do not like the lock rock wish it were not present, but make the compromise for the great ergonomics and cutting ability of the various models for the tools they are.
Buck and Spyderco use pretty different takes on the backlock, lock release placement aside.

The tab on the lock bar that drops into the blade tang is shaped different. On spyderco its box shaped like a square, its all right angles:

Image

On the buck, the lock bar is not made up of right angles where it wedges into the blade tang. The sides of it are angled like this \__/ so it wedges in. Can't seem to find a picture of the lock bar.

The Spyderco design is more secure, but also more prone to lock rock. Over time the Buck's tend to develop play in my experience.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Pelagic » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:12 pm

I've even experienced lock rock on triad locks, although it is somewhat rare.
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby prndltech » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:35 pm

I’ve got a dragonfly, Delica, endura and pacific salt that all have “lock bar raise”. I intentionally tried to see what a Delica 4 FFG could take and when it didn’t fail I designated it to toolbox knife, where it’s lived for 5+ years on top of my box doing all the dirty jobs in the shop (see username) and it’s still going strong. I have no fears of abusing it.
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Ez556
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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Ez556 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:11 pm

prndltech wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:35 pm
I’ve got a dragonfly, Delica, endura and pacific salt that all have “lock bar raise”. I intentionally tried to see what a Delica 4 FFG could take and when it didn’t fail I designated it to toolbox knife, where it’s lived for 5+ years on top of my box doing all the dirty jobs in the shop (see username) and it’s still going strong. I have no fears of abusing it.
Haha, are you a trans tech? If so I love the name!
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sal wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:28 am
But in reality, there is nothing quite like a gun. And it has been said, "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".
Sumdumguy wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:35 am
Does that complexity decrease the simplicity? Not at all.
Abyss_Fish wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:54 pm
Ti is uh, 300 dollars.

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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby BelgiumRofls » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:15 pm

Some knives we buy as tools, some as treasures.
For those whose Delica is the crown jewel of the collection, lock rock will get under their skin. We want our treasured stuff to seem perfect, right?

Tangent: This is why I find the Golden Co. sprints are a special beast. QC is high enough to satisfy nitpicky-ness, and the exotic steels, handle colors, and limited quantity make great users feel like luxury items. I don't think I will ever "outgrow" (or spoil myself out of loving) my Cruwear Pm2.
Timeless appeal is a better buying criteria than "best knife so far."

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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby Halfneck » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:26 pm

My old SE ZDP-189 Delica has a bit of up/down lock-rock. Of course it's opened countless boxes, cut heavy duty plastic packing strips, and was once used to saw excess material off a wet-to-dry cast before it fully hardened. My FFG Delica has a very tiny bit of up/down lock-rock, but it's newer & has not been used as hard. My Dragonfly has none, but it hardly gets used or carried. My Chaparral LW locks up solid with no lock-rock at all, but it's only about a month old.

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Re: Back lock Lock rock

Postby prndltech » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:53 pm

Ez556 wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:11 pm
prndltech wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:35 pm
I’ve got a dragonfly, Delica, endura and pacific salt that all have “lock bar raise”. I intentionally tried to see what a Delica 4 FFG could take and when it didn’t fail I designated it to toolbox knife, where it’s lived for 5+ years on top of my box doing all the dirty jobs in the shop (see username) and it’s still going strong. I have no fears of abusing it.
Haha, are you a trans tech? If so I love the name!
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