Batoning serrated (H1) edges - ?

[Wartstein]

EDIT: I think I have to be more precise concerning my question:
I am really (just) interested in how well the serrated H1 BLADE of the Pac Salt will hold up to light to medium batoning
Not in if that will wear out the pivot, not if there are better suited knives for that. I know of course that there are!
The scenario is as follows: I just want to carry the Pac Salt SE as my only folder. CAN I somehow squeeze it in the role of a "batoner" if I have too, even if there are of course a ton of better options for that, but I only have the Pac Salt SE on me

I got my Pacific Salt SE last friday and like it so much that I´ll probably have to get a backup, since this model will be discontinued.

Now as much as I love the serrations, I am still not sure if I should go with a PE one this time.

Really only reason being: I have to baton wood with my outdoor folders from time to time (lock disengaged). To be clear: I am not some crazy youtube-hard-use-test guy, but sometimes all I carry IS a folder and I just HAVE to start a fire in some mountain shelter where there only is rather moist (on the outside), rotten wood, or even outdoors in the rain.
Most of the times it will be just about smaller branches, but sometimes I have to splinter pieces off of larger logs too.

Now my question:

How well does a serrated edge (in tough H1 steel though!) hold up to batoning?
Any experiences?

I´d appreciate any input!

[tonijedi]

Never batoned with my Salt 2 but I have batoned with combination edges on fixed blades without a problem.

[Wartstein]

Never batoned with my Salt 2 but I have batoned with combination edges on fixed blades without a problem.

Thanks for your reply!!

And, man, just realized (don´t know why not sooner): I could just go and try for myself... since I HAVE a SE Pac Salt now... :D (sure, I would not want to completely bend and roll the teeth, but I have a feeling that won´t happen..)

[tonijedi]

Never batoned with my Salt 2 but I have batoned with combination edges on fixed blades without a problem.

Thanks for your reply!!

And, man, just realized (don´t know why not sooner): I could just go and try for myself... since I HAVE a SE Pac Salt now... :D (sure, I would not want to completely bend and roll the teeth, but I have a feeling that won´t happen..)

Knots are the most known problem when batoning but another thing to take care is debris (sand, stones) on the wood.
Several combination edge knives with "lesser" steels are used to baton every day without a problem, so I'd say go for it and tell us what happened.

[Wartstein]

Never batoned with my Salt 2 but I have batoned with combination edges on fixed blades without a problem.

Thanks for your reply!!

And, man, just realized (don´t know why not sooner): I could just go and try for myself... since I HAVE a SE Pac Salt now... :D (sure, I would not want to completely bend and roll the teeth, but I have a feeling that won´t happen..)

Knots are the most known problem when batoning but another thing to take care is debris (sand, stones) on the wood.
Several combination edge knives with "lesser" steels are used to baton every day without a problem, so I'd say go for it and tell us what happened.

I´ll do!! Again, I am not inclined to test the serrations as hard as possible, so not deliberately looking for knots and so on (that is for silly you tube vids, but not for me). Rather the opposite, as "gentle" and sensible as possible, but also as hard as necessary.
When batoning with a folder it is always about getting to some dry parts of the wood and /or make some kindling, NOT to throroughly split every part of the wood no matter what. So of course I look for "softer" areas, and avoid harder ones, knots and so on.

[ladybug93]

i would suggest pairing your pacific salt with a finn wolf on your outdoor adventures.

[Wartstein]

i would suggest pairing your pacific salt with a finn wolf on your outdoor adventures.

Thanks, that´s a good suggestion!

But IF I´d pair the Pac Salt SE with another knife at all it would be either a very small fixed blade (White River backpacker, a bit larger than an Esee Izula) or even a larger fixed.

My question is aimed specifically on situations, where I only carry ONE knife, a folder. In mountaineering (especially in wintertime) I quite often have to be really weight sensitive and can not bring two knifes... (sure, it would be good then to ONLY bring the small fixed blade, which I do sometimes anyway. But I like the performance of the Pac Salt SE so much, that I´d rather bring that one, IF it can take some batoning which I just can´t avoid sometimes)

[ladybug93]

i would suggest pairing your pacific salt with a finn wolf on your outdoor adventures.

Thanks, that´s a good suggestion!

But IF I´d pair the Pac Salt SE with another knife at all it would be either a very small fixed blade (White River backpacker, a bit larger than an Esee Izula) or even a larger fixed.

My question is aimed specifically on situations, where I only carry ONE knife, a folder. In mountaineering (especially in wintertime) I quite often have to be really weight sensitive and can not bring two knifes... (sure, it would be good then to ONLY bring the small fixed blade, which I do sometimes anyway. But I like the performance of the Pac Salt SE so much, that I´d rather bring that one, IF it can take some batoning which I just can´t avoid sometimes)

if i’m being honest, if i could only take one lightweight knife into the wilderness with me, it would probably be a mora. if i couldn’t also bring a folding saw, i’d consider a sak camper instead. realistically though, i don’t think i’d go into the woods with only one knife. i like to have a backup to one of the most important survival tools i carry.

i love my spydies and could survive with any of them (except maybe the chicago and dragonfly), but they are not the best for the kind of scenario you’re talking about. the pacific salt will probably work for you, but i personally can’t afford to misuse a $90 knife if my life isn’t on the line. i don’t feel the need to test them beyond their intended uses. if they fail in the field, i have a backup and/or can still make it work if there are no other options.

[BornIn1500]

I think you could be risking significant blade play issues by batoning with the Pacific Salt. No liners, no washers, and the pivot pin is resting directly on the plastic of the pivot hole. There's no metal reinforcement in (or around) the pivot hole in the plastic handle, right? Batoning might make your pivot loose.

[Wartstein]

I think you could be risking significant blade play issues by batoning with the Pacific Salt. No liners, no washers, and the pivot pin is resting directly on the plastic of the pivot hole. There's no metal reinforcement in (or around) the pivot hole in the plastic handle, right? Batoning might make your pivot loose.

Thanks!!

But I am aware of that. As I said in my op, batoning of course with the lock disengaged (and pinching the base of the blade whith the fingers) so no force on the pivot at all!
My question is really specifically only about how well or not the H1 serrations will take some more or less light batoning

[BornIn1500]

Ah... so if the batoning is so light that you only need to hold the blade, I'd be surprised if any edge could be damaged. Almost sounds like we're push cutting twigs. :D

[standy99]

Have a few Pacific Salts I use on the boat, H1 takes some beating on some of the bigger fish I fillet and cut up for bait. Cut some pretty thick tuna bones ( baton style ) over time and never had a issue

I would be carrying a junction style knife myself in your predicament explained above.

[Cambertree]

Another option in the scenario you outlined Wartstein, would be to use your SE Pac Salt to make another tool, like an improvised splitting wedge.

From my admittedly limited experience with European softwoods camping in Ireland, I think the Pacific Salt would be fine with light batoning, with the lock disengaged. And if it is pushed past it’s yield point, it will just roll or bend a little anyway, and be easy to fix.

Australian hardwoods can be very unforgiving, especially when dry, often with knots and twisted grain, too. I generally use a rule of thumb that I don’t baton wood thicker than a third of the blade length.

If I just have a folder on me, I’ll carve a wedge, then start tapping the knife lightly into the right spot, then remove it and place the wedge in the split and continue batoning from there.

Using this technique also allows you to split wood much wider than your blade length, plus you can make multiple wedges for large pieces of wood.

I’m often baffled at TV ‘survival’ type scenarios, where people use their knife for all sorts of things like digging in dirt and rocks, chopping and prying at edge destroying material, chipping and scraping away at hard objects etc. Yes it can do all those things, but if it’s the only cutting tool you have, then why not take a moment and use it to make another tool, like a digging stick, mallet, wedge etc.?

I find thinking about what other tools you can make with your knife, to complete a certain task, is a handy and satisfying mental exercise to practice when you’re out in the bush, too.

[standy99]

I’m often baffled at TV ‘survival’ type scenarios, where people use their knife for all sorts of things like digging in dirt and rocks, chopping and prying at edge destroying material, chipping and scraping away at hard objects etc. Yes it can do all those things, but if it’s the only cutting tool you have, then why not take a moment and use it to make another tool, like a digging stick, mallet, wedge etc.?

But that’s what $35 Gerbers (Bear Grylles) you get for Christmas do best before you give them away

[Doc Dan]

You could by an Aqua Salt.

[Wartstein]

Another option in the scenario you outlined Wartstein, would be to use your SE Pac Salt to make another tool....

I’m often baffled at TV ‘survival’ type scenarios, where people use their knife for all sorts of things like .....

But that’s what $35 Gerbers (Bear Grylles) you get for Christmas do best before you give them away

Folks, thanks for all your suggestions and replies! Really appreciate that.

But I have a feeling I did not succed in making clear what the underlying situation concerning my question really is:

First: I have some "bushcraft and wilderness- past and - experience". When I was younger, I did quite a bit of that stuff in Austrian woods, but also several times in Lapland - which is kind of a "small Alaska" up in the very north of Europe - and I have been in Alaska itself too one time.
So I know a bit about using fixed blades, starting fires, making tools for splitting woods, setting up camp, building shelters and so on.
I also know which blades would make a LOT more sense for batoning than a Pac Salt SE, I certainly OWN such blades (also a Mora companion of course)

/ But what I am talking about HERE is more mountaineering, a very "different kind of wilderness", especially here in Austria. Believe it or not, most mountaineers I know bring no knife at all or maybe just a butter-knife-dull little SAK, even on multiday outings.
While "going into the wilderness" in more the woods- ,bushcraft - American- style if you will, is partly inherehently about also the enjoyment to carry and use proper tools and knives, mountaineering where I live is a different story.

It´s really about carrying as less weight as possible, cover rather big especially vertical distances, summiting peaks and so on. Almost always this happens above the tree line.
"Overnight" means, you just roll out your pad or stumble into a shelter in the evening, you want to get a huge load of calories as quick as possible, and just sleep and get up before daylight again very often.

So: I bring a Spyderco because I just love to carry one anywhere . And to do the very rare cutting tasks that might occur.
AND, to go back on topic: To make some kindling as quick as possible, IF there is wood and a stove in a shelter.
I just WANT to carry the Pac Salt, and if I can squeeze it somehow into the roll of a (light) batoner, I am happy, I am NOT looking for the "best suited batoning tool". I´d have such tools / knives at home, but the Pac Salt seems to be such a good and light tool for any regular cutting task (plus I l+just like to carry a Spydie), that I hope it can take some batoning too... :)

Here are some pics from my home mountains so you know what kind of landscape and shelter I mean...

[Surfingringo]

Hi Warstein, I haven’t done any batoning with serrated H1 but I have pushed it through a lot of hard media at high force (mostly fish bones). I’d say this is one of the areas where serrated H1 is going to UNDERperform. Consider the mechanics. H1 is a relatively soft (though tough steel) to begin with but then the nature of the serrations themselves makes them more prone to deformation in certain types of use. First, the downward force (of something like batoning) will be concentrated on a much smaller area. Secondly, the grind angle of the serrations is extremely low due to the chisel grind. Probably around 15 degrees (or less) on one side and only a few degrees on the other. So you are going to be applying all that force to small contact areas on a soft steel at a sub 20 degree edge angle. The actual results are going to depend on your technique and the hardness and consistency of the wood but ultimately I would say that serrated H1 (not withstanding the fact that it’s in a folder) is not the best choice for that job. You may be able to use it that way without damaging it but you will need to be more careful than you would with another steel in a different grind. My 2 cents.

[Pelagic]

The biggest issue would be the strength of the pivot imo. I think the blade would take it. You just can't be greedy. Light taps, and abort mission if you run into a knot. I'd recommend tightening the pivot some for added stability. Larger pivot washers would be ideal but probably not necessary. I think if you batoned with a folder that had a free swinging blade when the lock is disengaged, you will inevitably introduce excess blade play. And you could come to a point where tightening the pivot will no longer eliminate it. And make sure you inspect the edge and fix any damage while it's still minor.

[Evil D]

I'm planning on doing some torture testing with my second Caribbean, I'll add this to the list.

[Wartstein]

I'm planning on doing some torture testing with my second Caribbean, I'll add this to the list.

Great! Hope you´ll post the results.
Though I figure the Caribbean blade is quite different from the Pac Salt blade, right?? LC200N basically harder but less tough? FFG vs sabre hollow? And so on.
Still, very interesting how serrations in general will hold up to batoning