Batoning serrated (H1) edges - ?

[Wartstein]

Hi Warstein, I haven’t done any batoning with serrated H1 but I have pushed it through a lot of hard media at high force (mostly fish bones). I’d say this is one of the areas where serrated H1 is going to UNDERperform. Consider the mechanics. H1 is a relatively soft (though tough steel) to begin with but then the nature of the serrations themselves makes them more prone to deformation in certain types of use. First, the downward force (of something like batoning) will be concentrated on a much smaller area. Secondly, the grind angle of the serrations is extremely low due to the chisel grind. Probably around 15 degrees (or less) on one side and only a few degrees on the other. So you are going to be applying all that force to small contact areas on a soft steel at a sub 20 degree edge angle. The actual results are going to depend on your technique and the hardness and consistency of the wood but ultimately I would say that serrated H1 (not withstanding the fact that it’s in a folder) is not the best choice for that job. You may be able to use it that way without damaging it but you will need to be more careful than you would with another steel in a different grind. My 2 cents.

Wise words!!

And you are totally right that the Pac Salt in SE(!) is sure not suited for batoning, even for a folder in general. I am aware of that.

It´s really more like that: I just WANT to have the the Pac Salt SE with me when mountaineering as my only knife, and HOPE I somehow can use it for batoning among other tasks, even if there are much better knives out there for that specific role...

[Wartstein]

The biggest issue would be the strength of the pivot imo. I think the blade would take it. You just can't be greedy. Light taps, and abort mission if you run into a knot. I'd recommend tightening the pivot some for added stability. Larger pivot washers would be ideal but probably not necessary. I think if you batoned with a folder that had a free swinging blade when the lock is disengaged, you will inevitably introduce excess blade play. And you could come to a point where tightening the pivot will no longer eliminate it. And make sure you inspect the edge and fix any damage while it's still minor.

Thanks for your reply, that's good advice.
But when batoning I have the lock disengaged plus pinchgrip the blade (see pic), so really no strain on the pivot...

[Pelagic]

Oh so you're batoning extremely small branches then. You'll be fine.

[Wartstein]

Oh so you're batoning extremely small branches then. You'll be fine.

Not only! Sometimes I have to splinter wood off of larger logs by this method of batoning! (So I don´t put the blade in the middle of the log to split in half, but really somewhere on the outside to make kind of "chips")

[Evil D]

I'm planning on doing some torture testing with my second Caribbean, I'll add this to the list.

Great! Hope you´ll post the results.
Though I figure the Caribbean blade is quite different from the Pac Salt blade, right?? LC200N basically harder but less tough? FFG vs sabre hollow? And so on.
Still, very interesting how serrations in general will hold up to batoning

Yep indeed and those differences are part of what I want to text since we don't know how much the toughness is different. My guess is that LC is plenty tough enough or at least tougher than say S30V but probably less tough than H1. I don't plan on bending the blade in a vice but I do want to cut some nasty stuff like CAT5 cable and things that I've chipped H1 on.

[Wartstein]

I'm planning on doing some torture testing with my second Caribbean, I'll add this to the list.

Great! Hope you´ll post the results.
Though I figure the Caribbean blade is quite different from the Pac Salt blade, right?? LC200N basically harder but less tough? FFG vs sabre hollow? And so on.
Still, very interesting how serrations in general will hold up to batoning

Yep indeed and those differences are part of what I want to text since we don't know how much the toughness is different. My guess is that LC is plenty tough enough or at least tougher than say S30V but probably less tough than H1. I don't plan on bending the blade in a vice but I do want to cut some nasty stuff like CAT5 cable and things that I've chipped H1 on.

Very interesting and I am glad you´ll do this!!

One thing of special interest for me came from reading Lances ("SurfGringo") reply in this thread (though I don´t know if he really MEANT somehow what I try to lay out in the following):

Maybe in the specific task of BATONING a serrated edge, the higher toughness H1 presumably has over LC200N might even be a disadvantage - ?
Why?: If you imagine a ideal batoning, so force coming only from above on the "points" of the serrations and going only downwards: Maybe, IF LC200N is more "brittle", but less tough, that does not really come into play cause there are no "lateral / sideway" forces. So H1 serrations might bendn and less penetrate the wood, while LC200 N might not, but penetrate better and still not break.

Maybe I can explain what I mean by an exaggerated example of two nails:

One very hard, but not tough and brittle,
The other rather soft, but tough.

Now if you lay the nails flat on a surface and hammer on them, the hard one might break, the soft one not
But if you try to hammer them into a very hard surface, force coming perfectly only from above: The hard one might penetrate, while the soft one might bent...

[Bill1170]

Hi Warstein, I haven’t done any batoning with serrated H1 but I have pushed it through a lot of hard media at high force (mostly fish bones). I’d say this is one of the areas where serrated H1 is going to UNDERperform. Consider the mechanics. H1 is a relatively soft (though tough steel) to begin with but then the nature of the serrations themselves makes them more prone to deformation in certain types of use. First, the downward force (of something like batoning) will be concentrated on a much smaller area. Secondly, the grind angle of the serrations is extremely low due to the chisel grind. Probably around 15 degrees (or less) on one side and only a few degrees on the other. So you are going to be applying all that force to small contact areas on a soft steel at a sub 20 degree edge angle. The actual results are going to depend on your technique and the hardness and consistency of the wood but ultimately I would say that serrated H1 (not withstanding the fact that it’s in a folder) is not the best choice for that job. You may be able to use it that way without damaging it but you will need to be more careful than you would with another steel in a different grind. My 2 cents.

To add to what Lance wrote, a significant downside to batoning a serrated blade is the asymmetrical grind typically found on SE blades. Whereas a double bevel sees balanced forces when pushed (or beaten) straight into a cut, a chisel ground edge like on a SE Pacific Salt will experience significant lateral forces at the edge when batoned into wood.

A chisel beaten into a large chunk of wood, where the strength of the wood is approximately equal on both sides of the edge will tend to steer itself sideways in the cut because the bevel side experiences greater lateral pushback from the wood than the straight side does. This is why we who use chisels in wood always point the bevel towards the weaker side of the workpiece, so it is encouraged to cleave off the main mass.

Therefore, if you need to baton a SE knife to get to dry firewood, you’ll do best by facing the more beveled edge (the serrations) towards the wet outer layer you’re removing and the less beveled edge toward the dryer (and therefore stiffer) interior wood. That’ll produce the best results with the least stress on the apex.

[Wartstein]

To add to what Lance wrote, a significant downside to batoning a serrated blade is the asymmetrical grind typically found on SE blades. Whereas a double bevel sees balanced forces when pushed (or beaten) straight into a cut, a chisel ground edge like on a SE Pacific Salt will experience significant lateral forces at the edge when batoned into wood.

A chisel beaten into a large chunk of wood, where the strength of the wood is approximately equal on both sides of the edge will tend to steer itself sideways in the cut because the bevel side experiences greater lateral pushback from the wood than the straight side does. This is why we who use chisels in wood always point the bevel towards the weaker side of the workpiece, so it is encouraged to cleave off the main mass.

Therefore, if you need to baton a SE knife to get to dry firewood, you’ll do best by facing the more beveled edge (the serrations) towards the wet outer layer you’re removing and the less beveled edge toward the dryer (and therefore stiffer) interior wood. That’ll produce the best results with the least stress on the apex.

Honestly, that´s great advice I never would have tought of myself.

As I already described in a previous post, I definitely have some experience in all the fire-preparing-batoning-outdoor-stuff (did it a lot when I was younger),but NON with chisel grind knives concerning batoning.

So thanks a lot!!!

[vivi]

No issues here batoning with mine. I've done wrist thick chunks of wood, nothing larger. Lock disengaged, started the split with the knife, then if the piece is big enough to warrant it I press another stick into the split and push it through to save wear on the knife.

I've damaged my SE Pacsalts by chopping through small branches while doing minor trail maintenance, but no issues with batoning so far.

[Wartstein]

No issues here batoning with mine. I've done wrist thick chunks of wood, nothing larger. Lock disengaged, started the split with the knife, then if the piece is big enough to warrant it I press another stick into the split and push it through to save wear on the knife.

I've damaged my SE Pacsalts by chopping through small branches while doing minor trail maintenance, but no issues with batoning so far.

Thanks for the reply.

If it can baton the way you describe, that´s fine with me! Batoning with a folder is something I generally avoid, but sometimes just have to (or to put it better: sometimes I just want to bring a folder and nothing else)

Chopping through branches is something I rarely do.
TBH, I am bit surprised that YOU do so, concerning how incredibly well and fast the Pac Salt SE can CUT through small branches. That´s actually probably what stood out to me the most when testing the knife - whittling sticks and cutting as said through smaller branches, vines and the like. I figure that superior performance is due to the combo of chisel and hollow grind, and I also figure it´s faster and more comfortable than chopping through such stuff with a very light knife ??

[Evil D]

I'm planning on doing some torture testing with my second Caribbean, I'll add this to the list.

Great! Hope you´ll post the results.
Though I figure the Caribbean blade is quite different from the Pac Salt blade, right?? LC200N basically harder but less tough? FFG vs sabre hollow? And so on.
Still, very interesting how serrations in general will hold up to batoning

Yep indeed and those differences are part of what I want to text since we don't know how much the toughness is different. My guess is that LC is plenty tough enough or at least tougher than say S30V but probably less tough than H1. I don't plan on bending the blade in a vice but I do want to cut some nasty stuff like CAT5 cable and things that I've chipped H1 on.

Very interesting and I am glad you´ll do this!!

One thing of special interest for me came from reading Lances ("SurfGringo") reply in this thread (though I don´t know if he really MEANT somehow what I try to lay out in the following):

Maybe in the specific task of BATONING a serrated edge, the higher toughness H1 presumably has over LC200N might even be a disadvantage - ?
Why?: If you imagine a ideal batoning, so force coming only from above on the "points" of the serrations and going only downwards: Maybe, IF LC200N is more "brittle", but less tough, that does not really come into play cause there are no "lateral / sideway" forces. So H1 serrations might bendn and less penetrate the wood, while LC200 N might not, but penetrate better and still not break.

Maybe I can explain what I mean by an exaggerated example of two nails:

One very hard, but not tough and brittle,
The other rather soft, but tough.

Now if you lay the nails flat on a surface and hammer on them, the hard one might break, the soft one not
But if you try to hammer them into a very hard surface, force coming perfectly only from above: The hard one might penetrate, while the soft one might bent...

I really don't think it'll matter until you try to batton through a hard knot or cable or something that would likely wreck most any steel or edge type. When I cut the CAT5 with my Autonomy I was surprised to see edge and teeth damage. I think there comes a point where a task is just not suited for a pocket knife, even if certain steels do manage to survive the punishment.

[vivi]

No issues here batoning with mine. I've done wrist thick chunks of wood, nothing larger. Lock disengaged, started the split with the knife, then if the piece is big enough to warrant it I press another stick into the split and push it through to save wear on the knife.

I've damaged my SE Pacsalts by chopping through small branches while doing minor trail maintenance, but no issues with batoning so far.

Thanks for the reply.

If it can baton the way you describe, that´s fine with me! Batoning with a folder is something I generally avoid, but sometimes just have to (or to put it better: sometimes I just want to bring a folder and nothing else)

Chopping through branches is something I rarely do.
TBH, I am bit surprised that YOU do so, concerning how incredibly well and fast the Pac Salt SE can CUT through small branches. That´s actually probably what stood out to me the most when testing the knife - whittling sticks and cutting as said through smaller branches, vines and the like. I figure that superior performance is due to the combo of chisel and hollow grind, and I also figure it´s faster and more comfortable than chopping through such stuff with a very light knife ??

When I chop with a folder I'm talking thin branches no thicker than my finger, so it only takes one swift chop. I'm usually doing this on briars and avoiding solid wood, but once in a while it's something I've got to do.

It's a lot slower stopping and grabbing the branch with my off hand then cutting it VS one chop.

Maybe I'll make a video of this someday.

[vivi]

Great! Hope you´ll post the results.
Though I figure the Caribbean blade is quite different from the Pac Salt blade, right?? LC200N basically harder but less tough? FFG vs sabre hollow? And so on.
Still, very interesting how serrations in general will hold up to batoning

Yep indeed and those differences are part of what I want to text since we don't know how much the toughness is different. My guess is that LC is plenty tough enough or at least tougher than say S30V but probably less tough than H1. I don't plan on bending the blade in a vice but I do want to cut some nasty stuff like CAT5 cable and things that I've chipped H1 on.

Very interesting and I am glad you´ll do this!!

One thing of special interest for me came from reading Lances ("SurfGringo") reply in this thread (though I don´t know if he really MEANT somehow what I try to lay out in the following):

Maybe in the specific task of BATONING a serrated edge, the higher toughness H1 presumably has over LC200N might even be a disadvantage - ?
Why?: If you imagine a ideal batoning, so force coming only from above on the "points" of the serrations and going only downwards: Maybe, IF LC200N is more "brittle", but less tough, that does not really come into play cause there are no "lateral / sideway" forces. So H1 serrations might bendn and less penetrate the wood, while LC200 N might not, but penetrate better and still not break.

Maybe I can explain what I mean by an exaggerated example of two nails:

One very hard, but not tough and brittle,
The other rather soft, but tough.

Now if you lay the nails flat on a surface and hammer on them, the hard one might break, the soft one not
But if you try to hammer them into a very hard surface, force coming perfectly only from above: The hard one might penetrate, while the soft one might bent...

I really don't think it'll matter until you try to batton through a hard knot or cable or something that would likely wreck most any steel or edge type. When I cut the CAT5 with my Autonomy I was surprised to see edge and teeth damage. I think there comes a point where a task is just not suited for a pocket knife, even if certain steels do manage to survive the punishment.

When you cut the cat5 did you do it on a cutting board pushing down in a controlled motion, or did you have the cable in your off hand and slice it without backing?

[Evil D]

Yep indeed and those differences are part of what I want to text since we don't know how much the toughness is different. My guess is that LC is plenty tough enough or at least tougher than say S30V but probably less tough than H1. I don't plan on bending the blade in a vice but I do want to cut some nasty stuff like CAT5 cable and things that I've chipped H1 on.

Very interesting and I am glad you´ll do this!!

One thing of special interest for me came from reading Lances ("SurfGringo") reply in this thread (though I don´t know if he really MEANT somehow what I try to lay out in the following):

Maybe in the specific task of BATONING a serrated edge, the higher toughness H1 presumably has over LC200N might even be a disadvantage - ?
Why?: If you imagine a ideal batoning, so force coming only from above on the "points" of the serrations and going only downwards: Maybe, IF LC200N is more "brittle", but less tough, that does not really come into play cause there are no "lateral / sideway" forces. So H1 serrations might bendn and less penetrate the wood, while LC200 N might not, but penetrate better and still not break.

Maybe I can explain what I mean by an exaggerated example of two nails:

One very hard, but not tough and brittle,
The other rather soft, but tough.

Now if you lay the nails flat on a surface and hammer on them, the hard one might break, the soft one not
But if you try to hammer them into a very hard surface, force coming perfectly only from above: The hard one might penetrate, while the soft one might bent...

I really don't think it'll matter until you try to batton through a hard knot or cable or something that would likely wreck most any steel or edge type. When I cut the CAT5 with my Autonomy I was surprised to see edge and teeth damage. I think there comes a point where a task is just not suited for a pocket knife, even if certain steels do manage to survive the punishment.

When you cut the cat5 did you do it on a cutting board pushing down in a controlled motion, or did you have the cable in your off hand and slice it without backing?

Held in my off hand, with the other end of it (inexplicably) hanging from the ceiling of my bedroom closet. So it was "supported" on both ends more or less.

[Bloke]

I reckon it's not so much what blade you baton with but more so what you're actually batoning. :)

I think many here may be well surprised and most likely bitterly disappointed attempting to baton random bits of timber found in the Australian scrub. :eek:

[Cambertree]

Hey Wartstein,

No worries, I know you're an experienced outdoorsman. Wow, those photos are great, I always enjoy seeing pics of the environments where different members live and play, and yours are nothing short of spectacular.

Where does the firewood in those shelters come from? Is it brought in in packs by the parks authority? I'm guessing there's not even much around to gather on the way in.

That cabin is higher than the summit of the highest mountain here in Australia (Mt. Kosciusko, 2238m)! :)

Getting back to splitting wood with the SE Pac Salt. Another interesting thing about H1, is given the high toughness, it's the only folder I have that I do light prying with. If the wood was clear grained, I might try batoning it gently into the timber billet, then cracking it sideways relying on the thick area above the sabre grind, to preserve the teeth.

When I first got my SE Dragonfly Salt, I found myself about to throw away an outdated bank card, and I thought I'd try slicing it into pieces with the Dragonfly. It did the job surprisingly well, holding the knife in one hand and carving chunks out of the card in the other, but there were some rolls and deflections on the teeth and inner scallop arcs. The stresses applied with batoning are a bit different of course, but I'm guessing you might get some of the same results with very dry, hard timber.

Also, to make it clear, my comment about TV show 'survival' knife use, or misuse, wasn't directed at you at all, it was just a general reflection on the way that knife skills don't seem to be focussed on as much as gear choice.

Standy: LOL, luckily I have the Junction as well to rely on as a lightweight FB. I used to carry a small custom knife by a local maker in CPM3V for light batoning of kindling, but my brother's claimed it! Thankfully I've never received one of those BG knives!

[Wartstein]

Hey Wartstein,

No worries, I know you're an experienced outdoorsman. Wow, those photos are great, I always enjoy seeing pics of the environments where different members live and play, and yours are nothing short of spectacular.

Where does the firewood in those shelters come from? Is it brought in in packs by the parks authority? I'm guessing there's not even much around to gather on the way in.

That cabin is higher than the summit of the highest mountain here in Australia (Mt. Kosciusko, 2238m)! :)

Getting back to splitting wood with the SE Pac Salt. Another interesting thing about H1, is given the high toughness, it's the only folder I have that I do light prying with. If the wood was clear grained, I might try batoning it gently into the timber billet, then cracking it sideways relying on the thick area above the sabre grind, to preserve the teeth.

When I first got my SE Dragonfly Salt, I found myself about to throw away an outdated bank card, and I thought I'd try slicing it into pieces with the Dragonfly. It did the job surprisingly well, holding the knife in one hand and carving chunks out of the card in the other, but there were some rolls and deflections on the teeth and inner scallop arcs. The stresses applied with batoning are a bit different of course, but I'm guessing you might get some of the same results with very dry, hard timber.

Also, to make it clear, my comment about TV show 'survival' knife use, or misuse, wasn't directed at you at all, it was just a general reflection on the way that knife skills don't seem to be focussed on as much as gear choice.

Standy: LOL, luckily I have the Junction as well to rely on as a lightweight FB. I used to carry a small custom knife by a local maker in CPM3V for light batoning of kindling, but my brother's claimed it! Thankfully I've never received one of those BG knives!

Hey Cambertree,

short on time at the moment, and I hope other members forgive me when I take the time I have to go ot and quickly reply to the mountain-stuff, not the knife stuff...

/ Wood for such cabins is brought by a helicopter mostly, but only one time a year (IF there is wood and an oven at all, often times there is not). So it´s really just enough for preparing a quick meal and to heat up the cabin a tiny bit, to use more wood would be not ok, cause the next visitors (though there are not many in really remote "cabins") need to have material for a fire too.

There are no real "park authorities" like there are in for example US national parks. It is just called "National Park" to make clear, that it is an somehow protected area, that´s all.

Gathering wood is not easy or in many places not possible, though you would be surprised how high above the tree line our dwarf mountain pines still can exist...

I´ve attached three pics of the shelter I showed already, but this time in summer, so you get an idea of how it looks like in that area...(pic 1: shelter is marked with a yellow circle; pic 2 the "cabin"; pic 3: Selfie on the way up there)

Again, fellow forumites, forgive me for going off topic... I just can´t help if it is about mountains... :o

[Bloke]

Cool pics! :)

[tonijedi]

Looks amazing!

[Cambertree]

Great stuff Wartstein, thanks for the reply and superb pictures.

I guess you’ll give the SE Pac Salt a go with some light batoning in the field, so we can look forward to your report soon. :)