POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.

Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it? (You may choose SEVERAL options!)

I almost never grab the knife on the blade in any way (so I not even use a dedicated choil)
5
6%
I only choke up on a dedicated fingerchoil, never on a (Endura-style) Ricasso or even the actual edge
15
17%
I sometimes choke up on a (Endura-style) Ricasso but find it uncomfortable, never on the edge
6
7%
I sometimes choke up both on Ricasso or edge, but find both uncomfortable
2
2%
I frequently choke up comfortably on a Ricasso just like on a choil but never on the actual edge
14
16%
I frequently choke up comfortably on both Ricasso and/or actual edge, no problem
7
8%
I sometimes grab the knife on the blade in some other way (pinch grip and so on)
28
33%
I frequently grab the knife on the blade in some other way
9
10%
 
Total votes: 86

crazywednesday
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby crazywednesday » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:16 pm

Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
If you had ever ground a finger choil into the ricasso and handle of a delica you might feel differently. It doesn't changed the blade length a mm and completely changes the feel of push pull cuts.
Justin

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Wartstein
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:32 pm

crazywednesday wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:16 pm
Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
If you had ever ground a finger choil into the ricasso and handle of a delica you might feel differently. It doesn't changed the blade length a mm and completely changes the feel of push pull cuts.
I personally never grounded a choil in Delica (or Endura and so on).
But of course I use and used dedicated choils a lot (Stretch 1 and 2, PM2, Millie , Manix 2, Chaparral, Shaman, Native come to mind immidiately, but there are more).
Just for me it's really like I said in my op: Choking up on a Delica/ Endura Ricasso is not less safe or less comfortable than choking up on a dedicated choil by any means. In a way I even have more control when choking up on the Ricasso.

Does NOT mean I don't like choils at all! I just don't need 'em, despite on knives sized like the Chap or smaller.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:06 am

crazywednesday wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:16 pm
Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
If you had ever ground a finger choil into the ricasso and handle of a delica you might feel differently. It doesn't changed the blade length a mm and completely changes the feel of push pull cuts.
I ground one into my Pacific Salt and never use it, so didn't repeat the mod on my 200 other Pacsalts.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:11 am

Jazz wrote:
PeaceInOurTime wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:06 pm
😲
Gripping directly on the edge??? I'm far too clumsy for that. I'll choke up on the ricasso if I feel the need and often "pinch grip" near the front of the blade for delicate work and to gauge my cuts. But on the edge??? :eek:
I peel thousands of potatoes at work, and my thumb always contacts the very sharp edge. Quite often, I have tiny cuts in my thumb. Not bleeding. Just marks. If you’re careful, you’ll be fine.
PeaceInOurTime wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:50 pm
Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:32 pm
I peel thousands of potatoes at work, and my thumb always contacts the very sharp edge. Quite often, I have tiny cuts in my thumb. Not bleeding. Just marks. If you’re careful, you’ll be fine.
I may have to try a grip like that and see if it's useful for me. I'll be sure to have bandages and super glue nearby ;)
"PeaceinOurTime", this has nothing to do with clumsyness... Anyone can grab a sharp blade and do whatever task, as long as the edge is not moving in your hand.
Look at the pic: I can grab this Endura on the blade (and believe me, it is sharp) and bash on stuff with the handle, no problem (no sense in doing so of course).
And if I grab the blade like in the pic in my original post (the first in this thread) the blade won´t move in my hand, never. It is not eve uncomfortable, at least with a plain edge (the points of a SE blade can poke you a bit, not seriously, but it can be less than comfortable)

Image
Last edited by Wartstein on Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:47 am

PeaceInOurTime wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:50 pm
Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:32 pm
I peel thousands of potatoes at work, and my thumb always contacts the very sharp edge. Quite often, I have tiny cuts in my thumb. Not bleeding. Just marks. If you’re careful, you’ll be fine.
I may have to try a grip like that and see if it's useful for me. I'll be sure to have bandages and super glue nearby ;)
Addition to my post above: I really think I´ll have to make a short video about that "grabbing on the blade"-thing where I show a sharp Spyderco, than choke up on the actual EDGE and do some crazy, hard use, cutting, stabbing whatever tasks. And perhaps even start a dedicated thread for that.

For now let me say this: Grabbing a blade with bare hands is historically well known, it was a viable technique in European sword figthing.
I´ll post two links to videos I quickly found on this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwuQPfvSSlo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGb0JafLZM&t=260s

Swords were and are sharp, at least paper cutting, and you can take grab them on the blade with bare hands an bash an opponent with the hilt without getting cut. And the potential risk that the blade will be moving in your hand and cut you is even much higher here than when just choking up on a knife edge, for the force that comes from swinging the heavy sword hilt will work to potentially "pull the blade out of your hand"...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:25 am

I think it would be fun to start a "video discussion" thread, where members are invited to post videos of things. I had one started at one point for showing videos of your knives in use, but a more general purpose one where we can talk about grips, opening and closing methods etc. might be better.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:35 am

Vivi wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:25 am
I think it would be fun to start a "video discussion" thread, where members are invited to post videos of things. I had one started at one point for showing videos of your knives in use, but a more general purpose one where we can talk about grips, opening and closing methods etc. might be better.
I recall your thread, really liked it and posted some short clips about methods to close a backlock one handed there.
Those were also the very fist videos I ever recorded generally, and this only on my rather cheap phone. I am not sure if I could do more complicated stuff, with different angles and distances involved (lets say, film how to do feathersticks, than starting a fire, maybe preparing a meal on the fire all using a Spydie...) ? And if so, could longer vids also be posted via streamable??
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Jazz » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:23 am

crazywednesday wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:16 pm
If you had ever ground a finger choil into the ricasso and handle of a delica you might feel differently. It doesn't changed the blade length a mm and completely changes the feel of push pull cuts.

I’m sure I wouldn’t like it. I’ve seen the mods and don’t like it. But, if others do, that’s awesome. I’m a modder myself. :cool:
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby PeaceInOurTime » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:28 am

I had a bad experience back in 2012 or 2013. I bought a first gen Delica SE from my little brother. The serrations were basically non-existent and the knife was super dull. I ground it back to PE and put a really good edge on it.

One day, I had other things on my mind and I opened it one handed but failed to flip the knife back over. Without realizing what was happening, my thumb was directly on the edge of the blade, pushing hard into a cut. That was a strange sensation. Blood was just pouring out. Thankfully, there was no permanent damage. I wish I had pics of it, but I only had the camera on my flip phone at the time.

wartstein, those videos were interesting and eye opening! However, the entire time watching I was thinking of this video: WARNING! Graphic images!
https://youtu.be/f7cUEYzprgs

Instinctively, I shutter at the thought of grabbing the edge of a knife. Though, y'all must be doing something right and doing it in a safe manner. When I pinch grip a blade, I keep the edge facing away from my hand and never use much force.
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:10 am

PeaceInOurTime wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:28 am
I had a bad experience back in 2012 or 2013. I bought a first gen Delica SE from my little brother. The serrations were basically non-existent and the knife was super dull. I ground it back to PE and put a really good edge on it.

One day, I had other things on my mind and I opened it one handed but failed to flip the knife back over. Without realizing what was happening, my thumb was directly on the edge of the blade, pushing hard into a cut. That was a strange sensation. Blood was just pouring out. Thankfully, there was no permanent damage. I wish I had pics of it, but I only had the camera on my flip phone at the time.

wartstein, those videos were interesting and eye opening! However, the entire time watching I was thinking of this video: WARNING! Graphic images!

Instinctively, I shutter at the thought of grabbing the edge of a knife. Though, y'all must be doing something right and doing it in a safe manner. When I pinch grip a blade, I keep the edge facing away from my hand and never use much force.

Boah, the guy in the vid truly did something wrong.. :eek:
But you know WHAT exactly he DID wrong? Put his hand into the path of a MOVING blade ;)

Again, if the blade does not MOVE in or on your hand, it WON`T cut you. I should really try and do a vid on that later. Cut some paper first, so you can see the knife is sharp. Then grab it on the actual edge and do some crazy stabbing, prying, cutting, drilling on cardboard or the like. Stuff I normally of course would not do when grabbing the knife on the edge, for it makes no sense, cause this grip is (only) good for controlled, "detail work". But still, for demonstration purposes I could do that crazy stuff and you´d see: I won´t even have real marks on my skin afterwards.

But on the other hand I really hesitate to post such a vid: Who knows, how many people will watch it without reading any contextual text or maybe even post it elsewhere. And if people don´t realize that grabbing the blade really firmly and not letting it slide in your hand at all is key, bad things might come out of this. Something I don´t want to happen at all of course...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby RustyIron » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:48 am

Advocating holding a sharp knife by the blade is no different than advocating holding a pistol to your head and pulling the trigger because you know the gun is unloaded. It's foolishness.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:05 am

RustyIron wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:48 am
Advocating holding a sharp knife by the blade is no different than advocating holding a pistol to your head and pulling the trigger because you know the gun is unloaded. It's foolishness.
Thanks for your reply! No offense, but it is just imho a not very thought through one and the pistol comparison does not make sense at all.

There is no sense in holding an unloaded pistol to your head, while choking up on the actual edge has clear benefits in some situations, and was done for centuries and is still done by people who know what they are doing (one example in this very thread is peeling huge amounts of potatoes).

I don't exactly ADVOCATE doing so though, I just asked who actually does it. Like I do for many years without any problem whatsoever.

I am bit surprised that you call something "foolishness" that you obviously never tried for youself. Cause if you did, and are a somewhat experienced knife user, you'd just know it works just fine and has its place.
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby BornIn1500 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:10 am

RustyIron wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:48 am
Advocating holding a sharp knife by the blade is no different than advocating holding a pistol to your head and pulling the trigger because you know the gun is unloaded. It's foolishness.
Although I wouldn't go that far in equating it to a gun, I would definitely say it should never be advised for anyone to choke up onto the edge. Hopefully newcomers to the forum, especially KIDS, don't go trying something they'll regret.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby JonLeBlanc » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:45 am

Tbh I dint feel that nay of those options applied to me, but I'll say that pretty much the only knife that "feels right" for me to *instinctively* choke up on is the Para3; for some reason that one actually feels better choked up. But I say instinctively because sometimes I'll *deliberately* choke up on other knives, it just doesn't feel as intuitive or automatic.
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Wish list: Hundred Pacer; Sliverax; Mantra; 52100 PM2 SE; Kapara

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:01 am

BornIn1500 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:10 am
RustyIron wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:48 am
Advocating holding a sharp knife by the blade is no different than advocating holding a pistol to your head and pulling the trigger because you know the gun is unloaded. It's foolishness.
Although I wouldn't go that far in equating it to a gun, I would definitely say it should never be advised for anyone to choke up onto the edge. Hopefully newcomers to the forum, especially KIDS, don't go trying something they'll regret.
Guys, to each their own, but in a way the way you talk makes me sad.
It is not really different to people who don't know a lot about knives generally and how to use them, but generally and strictly say "Knives are dangerous. Period". Without having really gotten into and worked with knives. Just prejudice.

As said, choking up on the edge is totally safe if you know how (just as in general a knife is safe if you know how to use it)
People who actually USE knives do so - not all of 'em, but not to few.

Choking up on the edge is a viable and usefull technique for doing detailled work, when it's good to "shorten" the blade. No problem whatsoever.

"Newcomers / kids": SURE they should not try this recklessly, but that's true for many things we're discussing here (for example Evil Ds recent hard use Caribbean test).

So: Please don't generally condemn things you obviously never tried for yourself. An approach like this is one of the reasons for silly knifelaws in many places.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby PeaceInOurTime » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:17 am

Wartstein wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:10 am
Boah, the guy in the vid truly did something wrong.. :eek:
But you know WHAT exactly he DID wrong? Put his hand into the path of a MOVING blade ;)

Again, if the blade does not MOVE in or on your hand, it WON`T cut you. I should really try and do a vid on that later. Cut some paper first, so you can see the knife is sharp. Then grab it on the actual edge and do some crazy stabbing, prying, cutting, drilling on cardboard or the like. Stuff I normally of course would not do when grabbing the knife on the edge, for it makes no sense, cause this grip is (only) good for controlled, "detail work". But still, for demonstration purposes I could do that crazy stuff and you´d see: I won´t even have real marks on my skin afterwards.

But on the other hand I really hesitate to post such a vid: Who knows, how many people will watch it without reading any contextual text or maybe even post it elsewhere. And if people don´t realize that grabbing the blade really firmly and not letting it slide in your hand at all is key, bad things might come out of this. Something I don´t want to happen at all of course...
I agree, that vid isn't a good representation of what you're describing. I posted that mostly "tongue-in-cheek" ;) . (I have no doubt it works perfectly fine in your use, I just know how clumsy and accident prone I am.) I would honestly be interested in seeing a vid of your grip in use if you decide to do it and am open to learning something new.
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby spyderwolf » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:29 am

I never use the choil,except for the Dragonfly.The only choiled knife i have now is the Manix LW,and i wish Spyderco will make a version without a choil.
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:36 am

Please don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to prove me right or whatever: But still it is an interesting result at this point of the poll, that a bit more than 10 % of the voters actually DO choke up on both Ricasso AND ACTUAL EDGE, a large majority of those even "frequently and comfortably" without any problem.

I get that it is a bit controversial to discuss such a potentially unsafe technique (if one does not know what to do, what would just be: Grip the blade firmly).
But then: This is a specialized KNIFE forum. I mean, on a free skier forum I can also disucss doing cliff drops a beginner should not try, you know what I mean?
And, tbh and without wanting to be sarcatstic: Imho the potential risk to get cut is higher when carrying a comp lock knife in the pocket than when choking up on the edge in a sensible way... (though BOTH risks are very low, admittedly).
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:50 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 am
Even a very sharp edge will not cut you without a slicing motion...
Then it isn’t truly a very sharp edge.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby BornIn1500 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:28 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:01 am

So: Please don't generally condemn things you obviously never tried for yourself. An approach like this is one of the reasons for silly knifelaws in many places.
Oh come on. You can't compare silly knife laws to us saying people shouldn't grab a knife by the edge. Wow :rolleyes:

You say a sharp edge won't cut unless there's a slicing motion, but there is always a very real chance for a knife slipping a little. It's why people like the highly textured FRN bi-directional grip. It's why many people like the textured g-10 over smooth g-10. Because knives can slip. And if you have one of your fingers on the edge itself... :eek: This seems more like a peeing contest of who can do the most dangerous thing with a knife "safely".

All I'm saying is advertising a potentially dangerous knife "trick" as a viable grip can definitely lead to people getting cut if they try it.


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