POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

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Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it? (You may choose SEVERAL options!)

I almost never grab the knife on the blade in any way (so I not even use a dedicated choil)
5
6%
I only choke up on a dedicated fingerchoil, never on a (Endura-style) Ricasso or even the actual edge
15
17%
I sometimes choke up on a (Endura-style) Ricasso but find it uncomfortable, never on the edge
6
7%
I sometimes choke up both on Ricasso or edge, but find both uncomfortable
2
2%
I frequently choke up comfortably on a Ricasso just like on a choil but never on the actual edge
14
16%
I frequently choke up comfortably on both Ricasso and/or actual edge, no problem
7
8%
I sometimes grab the knife on the blade in some other way (pinch grip and so on)
28
33%
I frequently grab the knife on the blade in some other way
9
10%
 
Total votes: 86

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Wartstein
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POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:11 am

Now after several interesting "choil - no choil"-and-so-on- threads it´s finally time for me to explicitly ask:

- Am I really one of the few who chokes up on a (Endura-style) Ricasso as comfortably as on a choil?
- And am I really the ONLY one who chokes up on the actual sharp EDGE no problem quite frequently too?

- ! Even a very sharp knife does only CUT (you) when there is a slicing motion, not when you just put your flesh on the edge!

REMARK: I almost always put my thumb on the SIDE of the blade, rarely on the thumb ramp or spine, no matter how I grip the knife. That might make a difference.

Choking up on a Endura-style Ricasso:

Honestly, I do this all the time. For any, even very "hard use" tasks. On my most used models (Endura, Endela...) choking up on the Ricasso even is the most common way how I grab the knife.
For me this is in no way less safe or less comfortable than choking up on a dedicated choil, but in a way I even have MORE control since my index finger is placed "further out" than the other fingers, while if I´d use a deep choil it would be "further / deeper in" than the other fingers (really hard to explain what I mean)
Another advantage of a Endura style Ricasso and NOT choil: IF I grab the knife in a regular grip (four fingers on the actual handle) my hand is closer to the edge than it would be on a "choiled" knife
Remark: When choking up on the Ricasso I press my index finger less "upwards" against that Ricasso, but more "backwards" against the front of the handle.

Image

Choking up on the actual edge

I do this all the time on knives that neither have a choil, nor a Ricasso (so edge all the way back to the handle). But rather frequently also on knives that actually HAVE a choil or Ricasso.
I the pic: "Worst case scenario": Serrated knife (so potentially uncomfortable "points"), very sharp almost factory edge: NO PROBLEM. And a great grip for the "detail work" discussed in another thread. Even LESS problem on a plain edge.

Image

Again, folks, I have done this for YEARS and YEARS, even in wet-coldfinger-hard-use-outdoor-scenarios:
NEVER, EVER hurt myself by doing so!!
Last edited by Wartstein on Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

FK
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby FK » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:23 am

Agree, this is why I prefer the Delica/Endura design over those with choils,,, why take away from blade length ?
Pinch grip on the blade is very natural in the kitchen and out in the field with folders.

Regards,
FK

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby vivi » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:44 am

I choke up on ricassos all the time. Choils do not benefit me at all. If I could trade the choil on my Manix XL for more blade length, I would.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby soundshaman » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:28 am

I happen to choke up quite a bit on blades. I do this a lot on ladybug, victorinox, Barlow style knives where I can hold the blade to only expose a small portion of the tip to cut into things where it don't want to damage the contents or cut too deep. I don't squeeze on the edge portion but the fingers on the handle portion secure the knife.
I don't know if this is what people mean when talking about detail work but I enjoy this way of using the knife. I don't do this as often with longer blades as I usually have a shorter one with me, but if for some reason I don't have a small blade I will choke up on the large blade too. A example of a larger blade that I might do this on would be a sprig or endura. I have not cut my self with this method too as I have gotten used to doing it, tho in the beginning I was being extra careful.
I'm happy to know others do this too. I look forward to hearing more people's opinions. Nice post wartstein :)

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby jdw » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:59 am

I choke up on blades. I tend to EDC larger knives so sometimes it's just more convenient for me to pinch up on the blade during a task than laying the knife down and getting a smaller blade. That said, if you are trying to choke up with no choil on a difficult task it is really easy to badly cut yourself and it's worth the time to grab a smaller knife.
Do right always. It will give you satisfaction in life.
--Wovoka

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Wartstein
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 am

jdw wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:59 am
I choke up on blades. I tend to EDC larger knives so sometimes it's just more convenient for me to pinch up on the blade during a task than laying the knife down and getting a smaller blade. That said, if you are trying to choke up with no choil on a difficult task it is really easy to badly cut yourself and it's worth the time to grab a smaller knife.
Thanks for your reply, but I have to politely disagree.

As said in my original post: I choke up on the actual edge of knives frequently (so not just "pinch gripping" the blade, but actually putting the index finger ON the EDGE like you would on a dedicated choil): No problem. Literally never. In any task. Even a very sharp edge will not cut you without a slicing motion, and such a motion does not happen, since the blade ist stabilized by the three (or even less) fingers on the handle and the thumb on the side of the blade (in my case, others will put the thumb on the spine).
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby sok » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 am

Interesting subject. I am glad that you put pictures up because I would not have known what you were talking about.

I have on occasions put my index finger and my thumb on either side of the blade as a depth gauge before, but never wrapped my fingers over. and onto the blade itself.

Also interesting is the comments that I see from time to time is that they would trade a choil for blade length. I have thought and said to myself many times that I don’t need blade length but I need a good four finger grip. The Para 3 would be a good example of lots of handle(choil included) with a minimal length cutting edge. When I use the Para 3, I have never felt the need for more length on my cutting edge. When I think of all of the things I do with a knife, food prep is the only thing I can think of where blade length would come in handy. I rarely use my folder for this.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Jazz » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Wartstein
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:33 am

Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
+1
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Wartstein
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:47 am

sok wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 am


Also interesting is the comments that I see from time to time is that they would trade a choil for blade length. I have thought and said to myself many times that I don’t need blade length but I need a good four finger grip. The Para 3 would be a good example of lots of handle(choil included) with a minimal length cutting edge. When I use the Para 3, I have never felt the need for more length on my cutting edge. When I think of all of the things I do with a knife, food prep is the only thing I can think of where blade length would come in handy. I rarely use my folder for this.
Thanks for reply!

I must say I really have a quite different point of view:

1.) Knives with choils in the size range of Para 3, Native 5 and so on do it "all wrong" (at least for my specific hand size):
The OVERALL, absolute handle length WOULD offer enough space for a good four finger grip, if not the part of the choil that is in the handle would take away from that space.
In other words: If there was no choil at all, and by that the front "guard" of the handle more forward and by that the grip area on the actual handle longer:
I would have a good four finger grip PLUS more actual edge (cause in the blade also no edge length would be sacrificed to a choil).
As it is, Para 3, Native 5 FORCE me to use the choil for a good four finger grip despite having generally enough handle length to potentially offer a four finger grip on the handle.

2. A longer edge has many advantages, not just for food prep!
Just a few examples:
Try cutting cardboard with a longer, than a shorter edge: A lot better with the longer one, cause you don't "run out of edge before you run out of material"
Same is true for simply whittling a stick: Much more efficient, longer and more natural motion with a longer edge
Or may it just be that you're looking for a reamaining amount of still razor sharp edge after a long day of cutting: More likely on a longer edge...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby sok » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:43 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:47 am
sok wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 am


Also interesting is the comments that I see from time to time is that they would trade a choil for blade length. I have thought and said to myself many times that I don’t need blade length but I need a good four finger grip. The Para 3 would be a good example of lots of handle(choil included) with a minimal length cutting edge. When I use the Para 3, I have never felt the need for more length on my cutting edge. When I think of all of the things I do with a knife, food prep is the only thing I can think of where blade length would come in handy. I rarely use my folder for this.
Thanks for reply!

I must say I really have a quite different point of view:

1.) Knives with choils in the size range of Para 3, Native 5 and so on do it "all wrong" (at least for my specific hand size):
The OVERALL, absolute handle length WOULD offer enough space for a good four finger grip, if not the part of the choil that is in the handle would take away from that space.
In other words: If there was no choil at all, and by that the front "guard" of the handle more forward and by that the grip area on the actual handle longer:
I would have a good four finger grip PLUS more actual edge (cause in the blade also no edge length would be sacrificed to a choil).
As it is, Para 3, Native 5 FORCE me to use the choil for a good four finger grip despite having generally enough handle length to potentially offer a four finger grip on the handle.

2. A longer edge has many advantages, not just for food prep!
Just a few examples:
Try cutting cardboard with a longer, than a shorter edge: A lot better with the longer one, cause you don't "run out of edge before you run out of material"
Same is true for simply whittling a stick: Much more efficient, longer and more natural motion with a longer edge
Or may it just be that you're looking for a reamaining amount of still razor sharp edge after a long day of cutting: More likely on a longer edge...
Hmm. I think you must have a more pendulum type arc to your cutting motion. I seem to have a shorter arc with more push cut incorporated into my motion. You mention that you have smaller hands. I would assume this means you have shorter arms. Maybe it is a leverage thing.

Wood carving- I really don’t do much of that, but I definitely see your point. When I do cut on wood, it is usually when I am out fishing and camping. In those cases, I usually have a serrated blade of some sort and a Military or fixed blade. So I never really thought much about it.

Cardboard- I probably average about one piece of cardboard per day. Sometimes once. Sometime more than once. So not too much and not enough for me to have evolved it into a more efficient stroke. My only counter argument to using a longer blade for cardboard is, If you were to go to the hardware store and ask for a sharp edge to cut cardboard, they would recommend the shortest blade in the store.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:16 am

sok wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:43 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:47 am
sok wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 am
Thanks for reply!

I must say I really have a quite different point of view:

1.) Knives with choils in the size range of Para 3, Native 5 and so on do it "all wrong" (at least for my specific hand size):
The OVERALL, absolute handle length WOULD offer enough space for a good four finger grip, if not the part of the choil that is in the handle would take away from that space.
In other words: If there was no choil at all, and by that the front "guard" of the handle more forward and by that the grip area on the actual handle longer:
I would have a good four finger grip PLUS more actual edge (cause in the blade also no edge length would be sacrificed to a choil).
As it is, Para 3, Native 5 FORCE me to use the choil for a good four finger grip despite having generally enough handle length to potentially offer a four finger grip on the handle.

2. A longer edge has many advantages, not just for food prep!
Just a few examples:
Try cutting cardboard with a longer, than a shorter edge: A lot better with the longer one, cause you don't "run out of edge before you run out of material"
Same is true for simply whittling a stick: Much more efficient, longer and more natural motion with a longer edge
Or may it just be that you're looking for a reamaining amount of still razor sharp edge after a long day of cutting: More likely on a longer edge...
Hmm. I think you must have a more pendulum type arc to your cutting motion. I seem to have a shorter arc with more push cut incorporated into my motion. You mention that you have smaller hands. I would assume this means you have shorter arms. Maybe it is a leverage thing.

Wood carving- I really don’t do much of that, but I definitely see your point. When I do cut on wood, it is usually when I am out fishing and camping. In those cases, I usually have a serrated blade of some sort and a Military or fixed blade. So I never really thought much about it.

Cardboard- I probably average about one piece of cardboard per day. Sometimes once. Sometime more than once. So not too much and not enough for me to have evolved it into a more efficient stroke. My only counter argument to using a longer blade for cardboard is, If you were to go to the hardware store and ask for a sharp edge to cut cardboard, they would recommend the shortest blade in the store.
Actually I have L to Xl hands... ;)
Again, that's why Para 3, Native 5 and so on do it all wrong for me handlewise (see my post above), kind of the "worst of both worlds":
Handlelength that WOULD be long enough in general for a good four finger grip with my hand, but unfortunately by having a choil, which shortens the usable grip length on the handle, I am forced to use that choil for a good grip PLUS am loosing cutting edge...

Also the main reason why in that size class the Delica imho is vastly superior: Great handle with lots of space, hand close to the edge when gripped on the handle, PLUS I can still choke up on the Ricasso at least as good as on a choil (plus of course: Thinner bladestock, which is better suited for a small knife, and - for me- better lock).
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby sok » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:40 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:16 am


Actually I have L to Xl hands... ;)
Sorry, I don't know where I got that from. So that theory is out the window.

One thing we do seem to have in common, is that we both like to keep two digits on the blade and take the pivot out of the equation.

Everybody's hands are a little different and some grips are comfortable to some and not to others. One of my all time favorite knives is the Caly 3.5. It fits my hand like a glove, and I can manipulate it around easily. The Caly 3 doesn't do much for me. I also can't do the Spyder finger flick from the opposite side to open my knives. My hands weren't made for that.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby wrdwrght » Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:51 am

For increased “detail work”, I often index the choil/notch or pinch the ricasso (to limit the arc of blade-tip travel), and sometimes advance my pinch-grip tipward for chef-like slicing and awl-like hollowing, even up to just the tip for safe opening of Amazon and other boxes.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby tonijedi » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:16 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:33 am
Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
+1
+2

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Wartstein
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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:08 pm

tonijedi wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:16 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:33 am
Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
+1
+2
For me it´s really weird that so many people don´t realize that or just feel differently (which in itself is ok of course)

As I said already one additional advantage (to the ones Jazz listed above) of a Ricasso over dedicated choil is: With a Endura style Ricasso your hand is still pretty close to edge when you´re NOT choking up on that Ricasso. Not so with a real index choil...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby vivi » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:38 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:08 pm
tonijedi wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:16 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:33 am
Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:17 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ricasso on the Delica, Endura, etc. is the perfect design. It acts like a choil, but isn't one. I love it. It doesn't get hung up on things like choils can. Also, it's the perfect area to drop the blade onto when closing one handed. Lots of room to choke up on. Sal ain't no dummy.
+1
+2
For me it´s really weird that so many people don´t realize that or just feel differently (which in itself is ok of course)

As I said already one additional advantage (to the ones Jazz listed above) of a Ricasso over dedicated choil is: With a Endura style Ricasso your hand is still pretty close to edge when you´re NOT choking up on that Ricasso. Not so with a real index choil...
Yep, that's one of the draws for me when it comes to my Pacific Salts. I don't have to decide between good ergos and getting close to the edge.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby PeaceInOurTime » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:06 pm

😲
Gripping directly on the edge??? I'm far too clumsy for that. I'll choke up on the ricasso if I feel the need and often "pinch grip" near the front of the blade for delicate work and to gauge my cuts. But on the edge??? :eek:
+ I'm currently participating in a serrated edge only challenge for 2020: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85560
+ "Wouldn't it be tight if everyone was chill to each other?" -Gryzzl (Parks and Recreation)

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby Jazz » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:32 pm

PeaceInOurTime wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:06 pm
😲
Gripping directly on the edge??? I'm far too clumsy for that. I'll choke up on the ricasso if I feel the need and often "pinch grip" near the front of the blade for delicate work and to gauge my cuts. But on the edge??? :eek:

I peel thousands of potatoes at work, and my thumb always contacts the very sharp edge. Quite often, I have tiny cuts in my thumb. Not bleeding. Just marks. If you’re careful, you’ll be fine.
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Re: POLL: Choking up on Ricasso or even edge - who does it?

Postby PeaceInOurTime » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:50 pm

Jazz wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:32 pm
I peel thousands of potatoes at work, and my thumb always contacts the very sharp edge. Quite often, I have tiny cuts in my thumb. Not bleeding. Just marks. If you’re careful, you’ll be fine.
I may have to try a grip like that and see if it's useful for me. I'll be sure to have bandages and super glue nearby ;)
+ I'm currently participating in a serrated edge only challenge for 2020: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85560
+ "Wouldn't it be tight if everyone was chill to each other?" -Gryzzl (Parks and Recreation)


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