Can anybody else relate?

[A.S.O.K.A]

This is why I don't believe in "maintaining an edge" on a strop. It may technically keep the edge sharp but you're just bending the edge back and forth over and over fatiguing it and ruining edge retention. Eventually you need to go back to the stones and freshen up the edge. On my SE knives I'll sometimes make a couple passes on the back of the blade after the first time sharpening but I don't do it again until I've reset the edge.

Somewhere on this thread your quoted. Within that quote you say you touch up your knife at the end of the day. Touch ups leave fatitigue steel on the edge and only remove a portion of fatigue steel. The knives that I do strop once a week are high alloy/ low carbide steels which give me the ability to strop that many times. Its all about understanding how edges of different steels break down over time. I would not strop high carbide/ high alloy steels like that because they break down differently than high alloy/ low carbide steels. S90v( high alloy/high carbide steel) breaks down by chipping at the apex on a micro, nano , and picoscopic scale until it needs to be resharpened. M4( high alloy/ low carbide steel) breaks down by bending at the apex until it can no longer hold and breaks off. If I were to just carry on using M4 without reforming the apex with strops, those teeth at the apex will bend. it would be like leaving a burr( a barely visible burr) but over time it gets bigger as more of the apex loses form. I hope you understand what happens when you use a knife with a burr at the apex. After stropping I can enjoy high level sharpness until near the end of the week

[A.S.O.K.A]

Looking like a similar work load to yesterday, coming in today. More pallets with thick layers of shrink wrap looking like the only difference. Time to see how the BD1N holds up today.

*edit* After cutting up the strapping, shrink wrap, packaging tape and box with the 3 hidden staples under the packaging tape...I've cleaned up the gunk from the blade and gave it a little paper cutting test. Most of the belly area of the blade still clean cuts through paper, no snags or anything. When I get towards the tip it really starts to snag and begins dragging cutting all wonky. I wasn't using a lot of pressure when I cut the box with the hidden staples, but it was enough to feel the blade bounce as I ran it over the staples. Inspected for damaged and don't see any chips, maybe a TINY roll, as I can see a slight light reflection that was difficult to get on my phone camera.

After 2 days now, with more work possibly coming in...I'm surprised and impressed that the overall sharpness hasn't noticeably changed since yesterday. The tip and half inch or so back from it still cut, but not ideally. Not to the point where I have to apply a lot of pressure and risk hurting myself. I'll continue on tomorrow, with no touch ups tonight.


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Its good to hear your letting the edge's life run its coarse. This way, you can understand how the edge reacts and then you can indicate when you will need to maintain it or resharpen it

[TkoK83Spy]

Yea I figure it's about time I really start to learn about some of these steels. I figured this is a good choice to start with, being an easier steel to work with then all is said and done. I just won't be sure if I should start fresh with the CBN rods or if I could start with the browns?

[vivi]

One thing I thing I notice since joining this forum that is frequent is "TOUCH UPS". While touch ups are beneficial to an extent( 3 times at best), they actually become deficiant. What happens after numerous amounts of touch ups is your simply reshaping fatigue steel as opposed to removing it all together. For example, I have brought CPM M4 para3 to an optimal sharpness( using course diamond, fine diamond, 1000 grit alumina stone abrasives then stropped with diamond compound on leather in the following microns: 5, 3.5, 2.5, 1.5, 1, 0.5, and 0.25) carried and used it exclusively for just iver 60 days, stropped it once and the end of each week during my 60+ days challange. I dont know how much of said materials you cut on a daily basis but I have gone through allvof them during the 60+ days( mostly cardboard and cloth)and wood on top of that. Another note, you can put an edge on soft steel that can tree top standing hair, but its only when you put it through abrasive and hard material that can truly tell the tail.

Forgot to mention when I stropped the M4 Para3, it was back to hair whittling almost every time except on the last few weeks of the 60+ days of use

This is why I don't believe in "maintaining an edge" on a strop. It may technically keep the edge sharp but you're just bending the edge back and forth over and over fatiguing it and ruining edge retention. Eventually you need to go back to the stones and freshen up the edge. On my SE knives I'll sometimes make a couple passes on the back of the blade after the first time sharpening but I don't do it again until I've reset the edge.

I don't feel edges maintained with a strop have the same bite as an edge fresh off a stone. It's a lot easier to round the apex over time with strops too.

[A.S.O.K.A]

I don't feel edges maintained with a strop have the same bite as an edge fresh off a stone. It's a lot easier to round the apex over time with strops too.

My point is that I'm keeping the edge of a high alloy/ low carbide steels like M4 or 4V as highly effective as possible. Keep in mind these knives in these steels are not resharpened until well over a month of use and when that time comes they are only begining to struggle with cutting paper. If we all just gave our knives a touch up after a day of use, we would all be happier than a pig in slop only using vg10 and steels in that class. I'm fully aware of what stropping does, so I know my limits with various steels. I also know that touch ups leave fatigue steel aswell. And yes, nothing beats using solid abrasives to bring out fresh steel in an edge.

[jpm2]

I've often wondered if over stropping (more than just a few licks) just smears metal out over the dulled edge, resulting in a weak hollow apex.

[A.S.O.K.A]

I've often wondered if over stropping (more than just a few licks) just smears metal out over the dulled edge, resulting in a weak hollow apex.

The edges sharpness can only drop so low for stropping to be effective. For example, If the edge is starting to stuggle slicing paper, stropping can actually worsen the edge. And if your using a strop, always use compound and the smooth side of the leather and apply lightly firm pressure. Strops without compound is for removing the edges bite, which essential is for shaving razors when the edge is too rough against the skin

[Evil D]

This is why I don't believe in "maintaining an edge" on a strop. It may technically keep the edge sharp but you're just bending the edge back and forth over and over fatiguing it and ruining edge retention. Eventually you need to go back to the stones and freshen up the edge. On my SE knives I'll sometimes make a couple passes on the back of the blade after the first time sharpening but I don't do it again until I've reset the edge.

Somewhere on this thread your quoted. Within that quote you say you touch up your knife at the end of the day. Touch ups leave fatitigue steel on the edge and only remove a portion of fatigue steel. The knives that I do strop once a week are high alloy/ low carbide steels which give me the ability to strop that many times. Its all about understanding how edges of different steels break down over time. I would not strop high carbide/ high alloy steels like that because they break down differently than high alloy/ low carbide steels. S90v( high alloy/high carbide steel) breaks down by chipping at the apex on a micro, nano , and picoscopic scale until it needs to be resharpened. M4( high alloy/ low carbide steel) breaks down by bending at the apex until it can no longer hold and breaks off. If I were to just carry on using M4 without reforming the apex with strops, those teeth at the apex will bend. it would be like leaving a burr( a barely visible burr) but over time it gets bigger as more of the apex loses form. I hope you understand what happens when you use a knife with a burr at the apex. After stropping I can enjoy high level sharpness until near the end of the week

My touch ups start on the brown rods so I'm pretty sure I'm removing metal each time.

[jpm2]

I've often wondered if over stropping (more than just a few licks) just smears metal out over the dulled edge, resulting in a weak hollow apex.

The edges sharpness can only drop so low for stropping to be effective. For example, If the edge is starting to stuggle slicing paper, stropping can actually worsen the edge. And if your using a strop, always use compound and the smooth side of the leather and apply lightly firm pressure. Strops without compound is for removing the edges bite, which essential is for shaving razors when the edge is too rough against the skin

I don't doubt any of what you said, my question is why, or how.
Why/how does stropping make a dull edge worse? Why/how does a strop decrease edge bite? Are they related?

[A.S.O.K.A]

I don't doubt any of what you said, my question is why, or how.
Why/how does stropping make a dull edge worse? Why/how does a strop decrease edge bite? Are they related?

At the very pinnacle of the edge are a bunch of nano and picoscopic teeth. This is what refines an edge for cutting material. The lower the grit finish, the larger and easier these teeth are to see. Everytime we cut something, some of these teeth get bent out of alignment with the apex. Stropping realigns these teeth. But over time, the teeth weaken and eventually break off. With strong steels like 4V, I can strop the teeth back into alignment quite a few times. But when the edge reaches a point where alot of the teeth are weak and some have broken off( like when an edge can barely slice paper), stropping would actually break off more of those teeth and only realign what teeth are strong enough to be bent back. Then theres high alloy/ high carbide steels like s90v where your best bet is to only strop it 2( 3 times at best) because the teeth of these steel types are not as flexable as high speed tool steels like m4, 4v, rex 45( the high alloy/ low carbide steels). Think about fresh chocolate chip cookies. You have one with alot of chocolate chips( s90v), and you have one with only a few chocolate chips( 4v). Their both fresh outta the oven. You bend the cookie with alot of chocolate chips and it immediately breaks apart. You bend the one with only a few chocolate chips, and it bends a good degree before finally breaking.

[A.S.O.K.A]

This is why I don't believe in "maintaining an edge" on a strop. It may technically keep the edge sharp but you're just bending the edge back and forth over and over fatiguing it and ruining edge retention. Eventually you need to go back to the stones and freshen up the edge. On my SE knives I'll sometimes make a couple passes on the back of the blade after the first time sharpening but I don't do it again until I've reset the edge.

Somewhere on this thread your quoted. Within that quote you say you touch up your knife at the end of the day. Touch ups leave fatitigue steel on the edge and only remove a portion of fatigue steel. The knives that I do strop once a week are high alloy/ low carbide steels which give me the ability to strop that many times. Its all about understanding how edges of different steels break down over time. I would not strop high carbide/ high alloy steels like that because they break down differently than high alloy/ low carbide steels. S90v( high alloy/high carbide steel) breaks down by chipping at the apex on a micro, nano , and picoscopic scale until it needs to be resharpened. M4( high alloy/ low carbide steel) breaks down by bending at the apex until it can no longer hold and breaks off. If I were to just carry on using M4 without reforming the apex with strops, those teeth at the apex will bend. it would be like leaving a burr( a barely visible burr) but over time it gets bigger as more of the apex loses form. I hope you understand what happens when you use a knife with a burr at the apex. After stropping I can enjoy high level sharpness until near the end of the week

My touch ups start on the brown rods so I'm pretty sure I'm removing metal each time.

I didnt say your not removing metal. I simply stated that your still leaving fatigue steel behind when you just touch up, regardless of grit :)

[TkoK83Spy]

What do you guys think when I'm done with this knife this week, start fresh with the CBN rods or see how it progresses with the browns first? I'd THINK after another day or 2 with BD1N, that the level of sharpness will be much less than after today.

If not...I will be thoroughly impressed!! Granted when I started, this knife was one of the top 3 sharpest I have.

[jpm2]

I don't doubt any of what you said, my question is why, or how.
Why/how does stropping make a dull edge worse? Why/how does a strop decrease edge bite? Are they related?

At the very pinnacle of the edge are a bunch of nano and picoscopic teeth. This is what refines an edge for cutting material. The lower the grit finish, the larger and easier these teeth are to see. Everytime we cut something, some of these teeth get bent out of alignment with the apex. Stropping realigns these teeth. But over time, the teeth weaken and eventually break off. With strong steels like 4V, I can strop the teeth back into alignment quite a few times. But when the edge reaches a point where alot of the teeth are weak and some have broken off( like when an edge can barely slice paper), stropping would actually break off more of those teeth and only realign what teeth are strong enough to be bent back. Then theres high alloy/ high carbide steels like s90v where your best bet is to only strop it 2( 3 times at best) because the teeth of these steel types are not as flexable as high speed tool steels like m4, 4v, rex 45( the high alloy/ low carbide steels). Think about fresh chocolate chip cookies. You have one with alot of chocolate chips( s90v), and you have one with only a few chocolate chips( 4v). Their both fresh outta the oven. You bend the cookie with alot of chocolate chips and it immediately breaks apart. You bend the one with only a few chocolate chips, and it bends a good degree before finally breaking.

My understanding of a strong steel is one that is resistant to bending. Those resistant to breaking are considered tough. I thought hardness played a significant part in strength vs toughness.
With most high speed tool steels, and 4v approaching 65 hrc, and some going harder (like maxamet), shouldn't they resist bending more than s90v? And when they do bend, more likely to break?
Most s90v is reportedly around 59-61 hrc, which I thought would make it more likely to bend without breaking, thus able to bend back.

What would happen if the chocolate chips were hard, and the surrounding cookie soft?

Also, I thought stropping displaced and/or removed metal instead of just realigning it.

[Evil D]

I didnt say your not removing metal. I simply stated that your still leaving fatigue steel behind when you just touch up, regardless of grit :)

Well ok then. I'll have to let my loupe know it's been lying to me about those burrs it keeps telling me aren't there.

Really though, how exactly am I leaving fatigued metal if it gets cut off? At what point does a touch up become more than a touch up and becomes enough to remove that fatigued metal? Is there a magic number I should shoot for on Sharpmaker passes?

[vivi]

I didnt say your not removing metal. I simply stated that your still leaving fatigue steel behind when you just touch up, regardless of grit :)

Well ok then. I'll have to let my loupe know it's been lying to me about those burrs it keeps telling me aren't there.

Really though, how exactly am I leaving fatigued metal if it gets cut off? At what point does a touch up become more than a touch up and becomes enough to remove that fatigued metal? Is there a magic number I should shoot for on Sharpmaker passes?

I touch up with btown rods frequently and I don't think they leave fatigued steel behind either.

[A.S.O.K.A]

I didnt say your not removing metal. I simply stated that your still leaving fatigue steel behind when you just touch up, regardless of grit :)

Well ok then. I'll have to let my loupe know it's been lying to me about those burrs it keeps telling me aren't there.

Really though, how exactly am I leaving fatigued metal if it gets cut off? At what point does a touch up become more than a touch up and becomes enough to remove that fatigued metal? Is there a magic number I should shoot for on Sharpmaker passes?

Ok, so your touch ups do enough to fully remove the fatigue steel, bringing fresh steel to the surface, reshape, and refine the edge? I can grind an edge on a piece of metal with a 120 grit stone and looking through a loupe will show me its uniform and clean looking. What the loupe will not show me is if there is fatigue steel left over. Which is why if your gonna use solid abrasives, please do more than "touch up". A knife user can go about the rest of their days doing touch ups each day and not worry. I understand that and I'm fine with it. But the OP of this thread is from a person who is trying to understand whats the difference with the steels mentioned( I have expirience with all the steels mentioned in the OP except bd1n). So, seeing as how I sharpen a knife and proceed to use it for long periods without touching a solid abrasive, just simply strop at the end of each week of use( except for s30v due to high carbide steels break down characteristics) and keep a high level sharpness for weeks. Not 1 hour, 1day, or 1 week, but a number of weeks( cutting rags, cardboard, plasic strapping, wood and only cutting paper to see where the edge is at). So I can shed some light on what might be preventing the person from being able to tell the difference with the steel, TOUCH UPS. Its one thing to touch up every now and then when its really needed. But when your doing it every 1-2 days, your not getting to understand your tool properly. Most of all, when your using multiple steels and touching them up and the end of one day of use each,you wont be able to tell the difference on literally any steel short of maxamet.

[vivi]

If you strop once per week and I use a stone once per week, you'd be more likely to leave fatigued steel behind.

[z4vdBt]

have you tried a box cutter?

Project Source 6-Blade Utility Knife ... $0.98 at Lowe's.

[A.S.O.K.A]

If you strop once per week and I use a stone once per week, you'd be more likely to leave fatigued steel behind.

We both leave fatigue steel behind. We both swipe steel along a surface, not truly removing old steel from the edge face

[A.S.O.K.A]

have you tried a box cutter?

Project Source 6-Blade Utility Knife ... $0.98 at Lowe's.

Does it have a deep carry pocket clip? :D