Can anybody else relate?

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ferider
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby ferider » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:42 am

Yeah, don't worry about shaving. Go for a week each, and afterwards check how much light they reflect.

Also, try to hit the occasional staple and check for chips :) And again, HRC is not just about wear resistance (you have a really nice spectrum there). Your 4V knife might cut through the staples if you apply enough force, the other knives not.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:50 am

Evil D wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:23 am
This is why I've kinda dropped out of the steel race. I can't leave the house with a full knife and especially with serrations I'm so careful to not let them get too dull I know I'm going to touch them up at the end of each day or use so I have no real need for crazy wear resistance. If you use shaving ability as a measure of dullness or need for sharpening then a lot of steels lose that peek sharpness quick so they will all seem to perform the same until you start pushing them into their working edge retention phase. If you never let your edges go that long then steels like M4 and 4V are probably overkill for your needs. If you look at edge testing comparisons like what Jim Ankerson used to do the difference between a lot of steels is on the far end of edge life after he has cut gobs of material. I realized that I typically don't let my edges go that far before I touch them up so I was basically swatting flies with a sledgehammer. I realized that (especially) since I touch up my edges daily, it's more beneficial to have steels that either hold peek sharpness longer and/or are easier to sharpen and most importantly are tough so that I rarely need to fix chips and other edge edge damage which make sharpening more of a chore. The good news is this opens the door to a lot of great models that use "only S30V" or "only VG10" but they will serve you just fine and you won't have to pay sprint prices to get them and you get to enjoy cool models that you'd otherwise ignore.
Thanks David, that is all really sound advice as well. It definitely bothers me to leave the house with a knife that's not as sharp as I know it should be. Really sets off my OCD! What you said would certainly help save me A TON of money, that's for sure. Sounds like we're very similar in that aspect. Maybe help slow me down on sprints/exclusives unless it's a particular model or color/scale material I find attractive.

I've chipped my blades on staples twice. Once with M390 and the other with S30V...I'm sure you know how that went fixing the chips! Felt like an eternity with M390.
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:52 am

ferider wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:42 am
Yeah, don't worry about shaving. Go for a week each, and afterwards check how much light they reflect.

Also, try to hit the occasional staple and check for chips :) And again, HRC is not just about wear resistance (you have a really nice spectrum there). Your 4V knife might cut through the staples if you apply enough force, the other knives not.
Yep, that's why I'm starting with my Para 3 in BD1N. I figure if it gets dull and I can get it back to shaving sharp after week, then I'll tackle S30V and go from there if I can continue to get said knife back to shaving sharpness when I'm done. I certainly don't want to do this with 4V just yet, and then not be able to get it sharp again and end up with a mess!
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:13 am

I do leave the house with extremely sharp knives and have high standards for sharpness. So I don't value working edge as much but certainly enjoy highly stable, high hardness steels that hold the high degree of sharpness longer. 4v at 65hrc, from a production standpoint, would be very good for this. K390 (also at 65hrc) as well, with enough vanadium that if you ever did get your knife to a working edge it would keep performing.
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:36 am

Evil D wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:23 am
This is why I've kinda dropped out of the steel race. I can't leave the house with a full knife and especially with serrations I'm so careful to not let them get too dull I know I'm going to touch them up at the end of each day or use so I have no real need for crazy wear resistance. If you use shaving ability as a measure of dullness or need for sharpening then a lot of steels lose that peek sharpness quick so they will all seem to perform the same until you start pushing them into their working edge retention phase. If you never let your edges go that long then steels like M4 and 4V are probably overkill for your needs. If you look at edge testing comparisons like what Jim Ankerson used to do the difference between a lot of steels is on the far end of edge life after he has cut gobs of material. I realized that I typically don't let my edges go that far before I touch them up so I was basically swatting flies with a sledgehammer. I realized that (especially) since I touch up my edges daily, it's more beneficial to have steels that either hold peek sharpness longer and/or are easier to sharpen and most importantly are tough so that I rarely need to fix chips and other edge edge damage which make sharpening more of a chore. The good news is this opens the door to a lot of great models that use "only S30V" or "only VG10" but they will serve you just fine and you won't have to pay sprint prices to get them and you get to enjoy cool models that you'd otherwise ignore.
I feel the same way. I was really happy VG10 was the first steel offering for the Police lightweight. Would have loved BD1 too. Steels like that suit me better than something like S110V because they're so quick and effortless to touch up. I can get the high wear resistant steels sharp, I have the skills and equipment, but I'd rather not pay a premium for performance gains I'm not likely to see.

Comparing, say, BD1 to 204P, I only noticed a small difference in their ability to hold shaving sharp edges. 204P would hold a working edge longer past that point, but going from freshly sharpened to scrape shaving the steels were awfully close.

One thing I've noticed is it seems to me a high hardness makes a bigger difference than carbide content when it comes to holding the upper range of sharpness. The steels I've tried at 65rc+ seem to be the best at holding on to peak sharpness.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:23 am

I think a lot of us around here are edge junkies that probably never really do test a steel to it's capabilities, though I know there are plenty that do as well. This thread is really starting to make me reevaluate what I buy in the future, and what I have now. Both Vivi and David bringing up some great points that are different but also come together in agreement haha. I'm going to go a week with a few of these and see how things turn out, but I also know I won't let some of these steels get to the dull stage because I don't want to deal with the bear of getting them back to peak sharpness, though the CBN rods certainly do a great job of getting things started.

One of these days I need to force myself to practice free hand on bench stones or buy a nice guided system, then I would feel better about actually dulling some of these high hardness, wear resistant steels.
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:14 pm

One thing I thing I notice since joining this forum that is frequent is "TOUCH UPS". While touch ups are beneficial to an extent( 3 times at best), they actually become deficiant. What happens after numerous amounts of touch ups is your simply reshaping fatigue steel as opposed to removing it all together. For example, I have brought CPM M4 para3 to an optimal sharpness( using course diamond, fine diamond, 1000 grit alumina stone abrasives then stropped with diamond compound on leather in the following microns: 5, 3.5, 2.5, 1.5, 1, 0.5, and 0.25) carried and used it exclusively for just iver 60 days, stropped it once and the end of each week during my 60+ days challange. I dont know how much of said materials you cut on a daily basis but I have gone through allvof them during the 60+ days( mostly cardboard and cloth)and wood on top of that. Another note, you can put an edge on soft steel that can tree top standing hair, but its only when you put it through abrasive and hard material that can truly tell the tail.

Forgot to mention when I stropped the M4 Para3, it was back to hair whittling almost every time except on the last few weeks of the 60+ days of use
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:15 pm

After day 1 with the Para 3 LW in BD1N, the blade is still clean cutting paper besides the tip which drags a bit. It was a rather slow day today, I opened around 30 boxes, cut around 10 bands of plastic strapping and removed the flaps of 8 of those boxes, which I cut around 2" thick diagonal slices through just to try and fatigue the steel a bit. Now when I get home, I'll just leave it in my work jeans and not bother giving it some loving and see how tomorrow goes. Hoping for a bit heavier work load...feels funny wishing more work on myself haha.

ASOKA, thanks for your input as well. I never thought of the touching up aspect as reshaping fatigued steel, can't argue against that though. I think after I work a half day on Saturday, maybe I'll just try stropping it alone and see how it does from just a strop (I've only got the KnivesPlus block) I don't THINK this knife will need to be resharpened to the full extent yet, as I haven't really used this knife a ton since I got it.
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby jpm2 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:46 pm

Cutting tape, cardboard, and a lot of other materials can leave residue on the edge that will interfere with a fine edge. Are you sure the blades were free of this stuff before testing sharpness?

The other thing is, if I finish my edges with fine white ceramic, like the sharpmaker rods, all steels get razor sharp, but they all seem to lose their fine edge hold at similar rates.
If I finish the high carbide steels with diamond, it’s a different story. There’s a noticeable difference in say, bd1 vs s30v.
From what I understand, if the abrasive is not as hard as the stuff you’re trying to cut, it’s just not going to do it.
If this is the case, and I think it is, you’re just shaping the matrix part of of the steel, and not the harder carbides. So, you’re not getting the benefit of the carbide.

It could also be burr, wire edge, or fatigued steel, which is also more likely with fine ceramics than other abrasives.

What abrasive do you finish with?

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:57 pm

Yes, I clean the blade and bevel off with Lysol cleaning wipes.

I typically finish with brown rods, but sometimes go through the progression to the UF rods. Always a couple passes per side on the strop. I also have the CBN rods but only use those when reprofiling, though when I did so last time I reprofiled my S30V PM2 I was quite surprised at how sharp that was off the CBN rods alone. But progressed through the browns after just to clean up the deep scratches a bit.
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:26 pm

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:15 pm
After day 1 with the Para 3 LW in BD1N, the blade is still clean cutting paper besides the tip which drags a bit. It was a rather slow day today, I opened around 30 boxes, cut around 10 bands of plastic strapping and removed the flaps of 8 of those boxes, which I cut around 2" thick diagonal slices through just to try and fatigue the steel a bit. Now when I get home, I'll just leave it in my work jeans and not bother giving it some loving and see how tomorrow goes. Hoping for a bit heavier work load...feels funny wishing more work on myself haha.

ASOKA, thanks for your input as well. I never thought of the touching up aspect as reshaping fatigued steel, can't argue against that though. I think after I work a half day on Saturday, maybe I'll just try stropping it alone and see how it does from just a strop (I've only got the KnivesPlus block) I don't THINK this knife will need to be resharpened to the full extent yet, as I haven't really used this knife a ton since I got it.
Sounds like you give your knives quite the excercise st work. I can shed some light on steels such as M4 and 4V. Both steels nit only have toughness, but they also carry good edge strength( 4V even more so). You can get real good performance if you sharpen them with the following sharpmaker rods: diamond or cbn then brown then white( fine ). Next, mske sure if you have a leather strop to have at least 1 micron stropping compound to dress the leather and strop with light firmness. These steels when sharpened properly, will give you optimal cutting performance, even for your level of cutting work load. For those of us that put our knives through some serious daily use, its more beneficial to use the knife until it starts to struggle with slicing paper. Best to expirement with steels like bd1n on how many days you can go without stropping the blade. But before anything else, put your knife through a full sharpening to get rid of that fatigue steel and refine that apex :)
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby lonerider1013 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:29 pm

Aside from m4 the only steels I've used a lot (except for the salty knives) are vg10, s30v and s35vn.
The vg10 doesn't seem relevant here and I don't carry it as often anymore (except when I break out the endura).
The s30v seems easy to just touch up, sometimes I just use the bottom of a mug. same with s35vn. In fact I touched up a minor nick or bend in s35vn with ease and I such at outright sharpening. I have noticed that my para3 is sharper even after much use and touching up than my relatively newer s30v blades on my two sages. When it comes to thick packing straps the hard plastic fibrous kind it bites way better. Maybe even within steels there is a diff? I doubt it is due to edge geometry as it seems its the initial sharpness that is different not how easily the blade passes thru.
I've decided I really like partial spyder edge serrations though, the ones on my native cut through anything.
An observation that may be relevant to someone who works in a warehouse (As I sort if do right now too) -- the black (dlc?) blade coating is easier to clean, sticky residue and just just rubs off with the hem of one's shirt, whereas polished or satin finishes you seem to need to wet the blade to wipe it off. Not a big deal I know but I like keeping my stuff as nice as I can these knives aren't cheap, maybe I should score more black blades?
"A fool's blade may be sharper than his brain"
“Learn to ride a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." - Mark Twain

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby aaronkb » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:13 pm

Did you check how dull they each were after a day of use? My first thought reading this was that the more wear resistant steels were probably less dull when you started sharpening, so it makes sense that the level of effort require do might work out the same - less far to go in bringing them back to hair-shaving.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:39 am

aaronkb wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:13 pm
Did you check how dull they each were after a day of use? My first thought reading this was that the more wear resistant steels were probably less dull when you started sharpening, so it makes sense that the level of effort require do might work out the same - less far to go in bringing them back to hair-shaving.
Yep, in my initial post I mentioned how all of them, no matter what steel they were seemed to be around the same level of sharpness after one day of use. My knives are all sharpened to a similar sharpness, best of my ability at least prior to leaving the house each morning. Since I've always done a quick touch up each day after use I guess I've never really tested them out after losing that initial shaving sharpness. Cutting the materials I cut on a daily basis at work for a week will definitely help me learn a bit more about these steels without daily touch ups. Not so much the toughness factor, but certainly wear resistance.
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:48 am

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:51 pm
As I've mentioned plenty of times, I work in a warehouse. I cut a lot of packaging tape, that thicker brown tape, cardboard, plastic banding and sometimes rope on a daily basis. I typically have to touch up my knife each day after use to get it to easily cut paper and shave hair again.

Since last Wednesday I decided to use a knife for the day and then not touch it up once I got home. I've now used 5 different knives, in 5 different steels during this time. Tonight I took them all to the Sharpmaker to touch back up to be able to clean cut paper and easily shaving hair (my wife is going to kill me, she hates when the hair starts growing back on my arm or leg and is all prickly :p )

The steels are S30V, BD1N, M4, 4V and Cruwear. None of these have been reprofiled yet, only touched up after use. Turns out, they all touched up to my peak sharpness with relatively the same amount of time and effort. BD1N maybe slightly faster.

Does this mean I'm just not really working them hard enough to get past the touch up phase, or maybe I have a burr on all of them that I don't see or think is there based on how sharp they are before I use them? I find it hard to believe that all these steels cut and wear similarly for me, as well as touch up the same? Feeling a bit confused as I chase all these steels, yet get these kinds of results.

I used to do pretty much the same type of work with my knives as you.

I used an S30V military most of the time for YEARS and normally had to touch up the edge maybe once a month when it would stop cutting newspaper clean.

And I did a lot of cutting.

I still think the Military is the best work knife made for folders.

I tried other steels also as I was testing them in a real world situation, always went back to the S30V Military however.

That was before there was a S110V Military...… ;)

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:56 am

Well Jim, you and I are on totally different planets when it comes to sharpening!! Hahaha. I can't imagine using my knives this way and being able to clean cut newspaper a month later without touching it. I'm thinking like 3 days :p Just goes to show there's still plenty more learning to do, which is fine by me! I LOVE this hobby. The knives and the sharpening process, learning along the way with plenty of help from the great people we have right here!
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Evil D » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:04 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:14 pm
One thing I thing I notice since joining this forum that is frequent is "TOUCH UPS". While touch ups are beneficial to an extent( 3 times at best), they actually become deficiant. What happens after numerous amounts of touch ups is your simply reshaping fatigue steel as opposed to removing it all together. For example, I have brought CPM M4 para3 to an optimal sharpness( using course diamond, fine diamond, 1000 grit alumina stone abrasives then stropped with diamond compound on leather in the following microns: 5, 3.5, 2.5, 1.5, 1, 0.5, and 0.25) carried and used it exclusively for just iver 60 days, stropped it once and the end of each week during my 60+ days challange. I dont know how much of said materials you cut on a daily basis but I have gone through allvof them during the 60+ days( mostly cardboard and cloth)and wood on top of that. Another note, you can put an edge on soft steel that can tree top standing hair, but its only when you put it through abrasive and hard material that can truly tell the tail.

Forgot to mention when I stropped the M4 Para3, it was back to hair whittling almost every time except on the last few weeks of the 60+ days of use

This is why I don't believe in "maintaining an edge" on a strop. It may technically keep the edge sharp but you're just bending the edge back and forth over and over fatiguing it and ruining edge retention. Eventually you need to go back to the stones and freshen up the edge. On my SE knives I'll sometimes make a couple passes on the back of the blade after the first time sharpening but I don't do it again until I've reset the edge.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:07 am

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:56 am
Well Jim, you and I are on totally different planets when it comes to sharpening!! Hahaha. I can't imagine using my knives this way and being able to clean cut newspaper a month later without touching it. I'm thinking like 3 days :p Just goes to show there's still plenty more learning to do, which is fine by me! I LOVE this hobby. The knives and the sharpening process, learning along the way with plenty of help from the great people we have right here!

I just used my normal 400 grit edge. :)

As long as it's a clean edge it lasts for a long time under normal use.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:41 am

Looking like a similar work load to yesterday, coming in today. More pallets with thick layers of shrink wrap looking like the only difference. Time to see how the BD1N holds up today.

*edit* After cutting up the strapping, shrink wrap, packaging tape and box with the 3 hidden staples under the packaging tape...I've cleaned up the gunk from the blade and gave it a little paper cutting test. Most of the belly area of the blade still clean cuts through paper, no snags or anything. When I get towards the tip it really starts to snag and begins dragging cutting all wonky. I wasn't using a lot of pressure when I cut the box with the hidden staples, but it was enough to feel the blade bounce as I ran it over the staples. Inspected for damaged and don't see any chips, maybe a TINY roll, as I can see a slight light reflection that was difficult to get on my phone camera.

After 2 days now, with more work possibly coming in...I'm surprised and impressed that the overall sharpness hasn't noticeably changed since yesterday. The tip and half inch or so back from it still cut, but not ideally. Not to the point where I have to apply a lot of pressure and risk hurting myself. I'll continue on tomorrow, with no touch ups tonight.

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Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:42 am

Of course right after I post that I have a truck backing in with a pallet of cleaning supplies that need to be opened!
Currently have 20 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick


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