Can anybody else relate?

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TkoK83Spy
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Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:51 pm

As I've mentioned plenty of times, I work in a warehouse. I cut a lot of packaging tape, that thicker brown tape, cardboard, plastic banding and sometimes rope on a daily basis. I typically have to touch up my knife each day after use to get it to easily cut paper and shave hair again.

Since last Wednesday I decided to use a knife for the day and then not touch it up once I got home. I've now used 5 different knives, in 5 different steels during this time. Tonight I took them all to the Sharpmaker to touch back up to be able to clean cut paper and easily shaving hair (my wife is going to kill me, she hates when the hair starts growing back on my arm or leg and is all prickly :p )

The steels are S30V, BD1N, M4, 4V and Cruwear. None of these have been reprofiled yet, only touched up after use. Turns out, they all touched up to my peak sharpness with relatively the same amount of time and effort. BD1N maybe slightly faster.

Does this mean I'm just not really working them hard enough to get past the touch up phase, or maybe I have a burr on all of them that I don't see or think is there based on how sharp they are before I use them? I find it hard to believe that all these steels cut and wear similarly for me, as well as touch up the same? Feeling a bit confused as I chase all these steels, yet get these kinds of results.
Currently have 17 :spyder: 's in 13 different steels.

-Rick

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Vivi
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Vivi » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:57 pm

When you say a day at your job dulls a knife, how dull are you talking? If its merely going fro. shaving sharp to "kind of scrapes off arm hair," then your results aren't terribly surprising. For all the hype high wear resistant steels have, there isn't a world of difference between them and S30V when it comes to that upper range of sharpness. Something like 4V won't really show a large advantage over S30V during EDC usage, takes rougher work for that toughness to play a role.

TkoK83Spy
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:06 pm

Of course every day I don't cut exactly the same things or amount of things, but a lot of the time it will be very rough scraping to where it feels irritating to the skin and sometimes not at all until near the ricasso, not typically though. Maybe the toughness factor is what I lack in my uses for some of these steels? I'm not cutting through electrical wire or very thick rope like I imagine Pelagic does.

I was just under the impression that some of these would take more work to touch up, and I know I'm no sharpening wizard, but definitely getting better! I'm relieved they don't, but it is a bit disheartening not to see much of a difference when I'm paying some premium prices to try some of these out.
Currently have 17 :spyder: 's in 13 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby brainfriction » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:19 pm

It's all a farce, edge geometry, heat treat, and sharpening skill are far more important than s30v, 440c, or super duper vanadium & tungsten tool steel 2.0

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Woodpuppy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:32 pm

I find M4 and cruwear touch up very quickly on my doublestuff 2 (I don’t have any of the other steels you mentioned in use). If you keep them touched up, you won’t need a more in-depth sharpening session until you reprofile them.
:spyder: Current favs: M4 & CRUWEAR :spyder:

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p_atrick
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby p_atrick » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:32 pm

Ever think about getting a loupe to see what your edges really look like? I hear Sal carries one around with him. I think I need to invest in one to help improve my sharpening skills.

zhyla
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby zhyla » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:36 pm

There’s a lot to say about this thread OP but I think you should consider getting an SE blade and sharpening it once a year.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby The Meat man » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:40 pm

Actually from the steels you listed, I'm not too surprised to hear that you are experiencing very similar results over the course of a single day. From the standpoint of pure wear resistance, there probably won't be much noticeable difference between them (BD1N, possibly.) The bigger differences lie in other areas like corrosion resistance, strength/ toughness, etc.

Are you sharpening them all with a microbevel? That could also explain why you are getting such similar responses in sharpening time. A very fresh microbevel will only take a few swipes to get razor sharp again, whether it's 8Cr13MoV or Maxamet. As the microbevel gets larger I would expect you to start noticing differences, although again, with the steels listed, probably not a huge difference.

A burr could explain why they dull so uniformly, although in my experience, that top-tier level of sharpness never stays around long, even on high hardness, high wear resistance steels.
Using a strong light and magnifying glass helps in trying to detect a burr. Once found, the only answer is lots of patience. You'll need to use as light strokes as humanely possible, and keep checking it as you chase that burr from one side to the other until it's gone.
I struggle with burrs myself sometimes, especially (for some reason) on my K390 Police.
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TkoK83Spy
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:01 pm

p_atrick wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:32 pm
Ever think about getting a loupe to see what your edges really look like? I hear Sal carries one around with him. I think I need to invest in one to help improve my sharpening skills.
Yep, I've got a 10X. Definitely helped me in the beginning, but haven't used it lately since when I leave the house they cut effortlessly. Maybe it's time to start looking into it again.
Last edited by TkoK83Spy on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently have 17 :spyder: 's in 13 different steels.

-Rick

TkoK83Spy
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:03 pm

zhyla wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:36 pm
There’s a lot to say about this thread OP but I think you should consider getting an SE blade and sharpening it once a year.
I have a Salt 2 SE as well as an old Endura SE in G2. I do pretty well with those, especially H1 steel.
Currently have 17 :spyder: 's in 13 different steels.

-Rick

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Vivi
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Vivi » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:11 pm

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:01 pm
p_atrick wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:32 pm
Ever think about getting a loupe to see what your edges really look like? I hear Sal carries one around with him. I think I need to invest in one to help improve my sharpening skills.
Yep, I've got a 10X. Definitely helped me in the beginning, but haven't used it lately since when I leave the house they cut effortlessly. Maybe it's time to start looking into it again.
If I were you I'd do the same comparison again, except go a week instead of a day.

Sharpen them all up to your usual level, then carry one knife for a full week with no touch-ups at all.

Compare how well they each cut at the end. And let us know!

If you really want to put on your nerd hat, you could do the above twice. Once with a high polish edge on each knife, then again with a low grit edge.

TkoK83Spy
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:16 pm

I think it's time I do that. I always say I want to carry a knife for a week, but with so many options it's tough. Starting tomorrow, one knife for a week...no touch ups, only cleaning off tape gunk. It really is the only way to test these steels, as well my sharpening abilities...or lack there of haha.
Currently have 17 :spyder: 's in 13 different steels.

-Rick

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Cambertree
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Cambertree » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:28 pm

Rick, what angle are you using to touch up your edges? If it’s 20 degrees, it’s likely you’re slightly microbevelling the edge. Most PE Spyderco edges are around 17 degrees, at least that is what I believe they aim for.

It’s a clever edge angle to use, as 15dps can be too acute for the average (abusive) user. It also means that if you go to resharpen a dull factory edge on the 20dps Sharpmaker setting you get results fairly quickly, because of the smaller contact area.

And likewise, if afi’s want to reprofile to 15dps, it’s much quicker than starting off with a 20dps factory edge.

(There’s many exceptions of course - my AEB-L Urban came with a more obtuse edge than the 20dps Sharpmaker setting, for example.)

Also, regarding edge dulling at very high sharpness levels to say ‘working sharp’, all steels drop off relatively quickly. The large differences tend to show up more when the edge is dropping down from ‘working sharp’ to dull.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby SF Native » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:41 pm

You might even be able to strop these back to a decent edge. Don’t know.
If you really want to know what these can do...
Use one everyday until it’s dull and can’t do its job. I suggest having a back up to keep your job. Then try the next one. See how many days until the working edge is gone.some will last longer than others. Might be very educational.

Of course there is no defenition of dull. It’s a bit of a gray area. And then you need to sharpen from dull, which is a chore. Maybe not worth it to you. You see to have a good system that keeps you working with fresh edges.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:46 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:28 pm
Rick, what angle are you using to touch up your edges? If it’s 20 degrees, it’s likely you’re slightly microbevelling the edge. Most PE Spyderco edges are around 17 degrees, at least that is what I believe they aim for.

It’s a clever edge angle to use, as 15dps can be too acute for the average (abusive) user. It also means that if you go to resharpen a dull factory edge on the 20dps Sharpmaker setting you get results fairly quickly, because of the smaller contact area.

And likewise, if afi’s want to reprofile to 15dps, it’s much quicker than starting off with a 20dps factory edge.

(There’s many exceptions of course - my AEB-L Urban came with a more obtuse edge than the 20dps Sharpmaker setting, for example.)

Also, regarding edge dulling at very high sharpness levels to say ‘working sharp’, all steels drop off relatively quickly. The large differences tend to show up more when the edge is dropping down from ‘working sharp’ to dull.
My AEB-L Urban is also way off. The next on my reprofiling list.

I typically touch up at 20 dps, but a lot of times I actually end up holding the rod by hand and do a few light passes that way and get a better finishing edge than if using the Sharpmaker base itself. A bit weird I'm sure, but a lot of times that works for me.
Currently have 17 :spyder: 's in 13 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:50 pm

SF Native wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:41 pm
You might even be able to strop these back to a decent edge. Don’t know.
If you really want to know what these can do...
Use one everyday until it’s dull and can’t do its job. I suggest having a back up to keep your job. Then try the next one. See how many days until the working edge is gone.some will last longer than others. Might be very educational.

Of course there is no defenition of dull. It’s a bit of a gray area. And then you need to sharpen from dull, which is a chore. Maybe not worth it to you. You see to have a good system that keeps you working with fresh edges.
I agree. I think that's why I'll start with the BD1N Para 3. Easy to sharpen, though I know will dull quickly.

I reprofiled a S30V PM2 a few months back to 15 dps using the CBN rods and that was relatively painless. Though I do worry about a few of these other steels. Maybe give them a couple days and see what happens.
Currently have 17 :spyder: 's in 13 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby zuludelta » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:35 am

I work in a warehouse as well & rotate through knives in VG10 (in combo edge & PE), H1 (in SE), S30V (in PE), and S35VN (in combo edge) across a typical work week.

Purely from a subjective, personal standpoint, I see little difference in their day-to-day cutting performance (although I will say that they all hold their edge much longer than the 8Cr13MoV plain edge knives I formerly used). And I cut a lot of abrasive stuff at work (offhand, I probably use my knife at least 100 times over the course of a typical shift).

It's only when I've forgotten to touch them up over a few weeks, or if I "cheat" on my rotation & use a particular knife on consecutive days, that I notice a difference in perceived cutting performance, at least as far as the materials I cut at work are concerned.

Indeed, such is my real-world experience that "edge retention" (specifically as predicted by a blade's chemical composition) isn't something I particularly obsess over compared to your typical knife-knut. I'm sure the edge-holding differences between certain steels in the VG10 to S30V range are measurable and replicable in a controlled, experimental setting, but there are so many other confounding factors (i.e., geometry, handling & ergonomics, etc.) in play in the real world.

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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:30 am

Out of all those steels s30v has the worst sharpening response, imo. And we all know s30v is pretty easy/quick to sharpen. So you really just have the pleasure of using a bunch of steels that sharpen quite well. Throw s110v into the mix and you'll see a big difference. It'll be an apparent outlier.
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby standy99 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:13 am

Vivi wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:11 pm


If I were you I'd do the same comparison again, except go a week instead of a day.

Sharpen them all up to your usual level, then carry one knife for a full week with no touch-ups at all.

Compare how well they each cut at the end. And let us know!

If you really want to put on your nerd hat, you could do the above twice. Once with a high polish edge on each knife, then again with a low grit edge.
Great advice above.
Touch ups are quick, I sharpen a lot of knives from blunt for people being a ex butcher and there is a lot of difference from blunt compared to a days use.

Try using all of them until they are blunt and gauge how they all last it will be interesting for you. ( especially M4 and Cruwear ;) )
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Re: Can anybody else relate?

Postby Evil D » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:23 am

This is why I've kinda dropped out of the steel race. I can't leave the house with a dull knife and especially with serrations I'm so careful to not let them get too dull I know I'm going to touch them up at the end of each day or use so I have no real need for crazy wear resistance. If you use shaving ability as a measure of dullness or need for sharpening then a lot of steels lose that peek sharpness quick so they will all seem to perform the same until you start pushing them into their working edge retention phase. If you never let your edges go that long then steels like M4 and 4V are probably overkill for your needs. If you look at edge testing comparisons like what Jim Ankerson used to do the difference between a lot of steels is on the far end of edge life after he has cut gobs of material. I realized that I typically don't let my edges go that far before I touch them up so I was basically swatting flies with a sledgehammer. I realized that (especially) since I touch up my edges daily, it's more beneficial to have steels that either hold peek sharpness longer and/or are easier to sharpen and most importantly are tough so that I rarely need to fix chips and other edge edge damage which make sharpening more of a chore. The good news is this opens the door to a lot of great models that use "only S30V" or "only VG10" but they will serve you just fine and you won't have to pay sprint prices to get them and you get to enjoy cool models that you'd otherwise ignore.
Last edited by Evil D on Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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