SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#181

Post by Evil D »

Bill1170 wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:26 pm
David, do you just deburr at a nearly flat angle on a SM rod? I’m inspired to round the points on my SE Caribbean because it still snags on paper. The serrations are ground at about 20 degrees on mine, which feels performant enough, given the chisel grind.


On PE I typically run the edge along my ultra fine rods very gently as if I was trying to cut the rod in half. That's a little tricky to do with SE so I just hold the blade at a much steeper angle and make a couple passes on each side of the blade until I can see in my loupe that the burr is gone, basically making a micro bevel. Then I go back to the angle I want and make very light gentle passes until I've removed the micro bevel. The burr was likely the result of getting too aggressive on the diamond rods.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#182

Post by Bill1170 »

Thanks!
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#183

Post by Bill1170 »

SE update:

Inspired by this thread, I took my Caribbean to the CBN Sharpmaker rods and rounded the points further, followed by the medium and fine rods. This took maybe 20-30 minutes because it was already close. Now it cleanly slices and push cuts paper without snagging.

I then began the larger task of going for the same performance from a never-used Pacific Salt 1 inherited from my father. On that one I started by flattening the points on the flats of the CBN rods, followed by forward and backwards strokes on the corners using very light pressure. This took a long time before I had a shape ready to refine on the brown rods. H-1 definitely forms more burr than LC200N does. After over an hour on the Sharpmaker I had the Pacific Salt cutting checks into ribbons, straight or curving cuts.

I have an older Pacific Salt that is underway in the same process, to be followed by my saber ground SE Endura and possibly the Matriarch. I’m not sure if the Matriarch isn’t better served for its purpose by the snaggy factory points. Thoughtful input will be appreciated.

In any case, I am deeply grateful to David (Evil D) for starting this conversation and opening my mind to the greater potential of a serrated folding knife.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#184

Post by JD Spydo »

Well Bill I'm glad you brought that up. Because for a long time now I've come to the conclusion that the rounded/wavy type of serration pattern is better for most everyday jobs.

One of my Harpy models I've pretty much rounded off the spike part of the serration pattern and it sure doesn't have a tendency to snag up anymore. Serrated Hawkbills tend to have that problem more than most other designs do.

Now I'm not at all saying that the more pointed/spikey type of serration pattern is inferior. Because there are some jobs that those types of patterns do really well with. Cutting rope and cordage with those spikey type serration patterns can really do well by comparison. But overall I think the rounded/wavy type patterns hold the most promise down the road.
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#185

Post by Evil D »

JD Spydo wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:03 am
Now I'm not at all saying that the more pointed/spikey type of serration pattern is inferior. Because there are some jobs that those types of patterns do really well with. Cutting rope and cordage with those spikey type serration patterns can really do well by comparison. But overall I think the rounded/wavy type patterns hold the most promise down the road.



Well, I guess I'd need to find myself in a situation where I was using my knife for a primary cutting job, such as at an actual job where I'm cutting a specific material all the time and that material really cut better with pointer serrations. Otherwise I see the rounder teeth as being superior in so many other more common situations that whatever I may sacrifice by not having the pointy ones is an easy loss. It's not as if the rounder serrations are poor at cutting rope (just as an example). I've been meaning to pick up some manilla rope, I think I'll get some and hang onto it until I buy my next SE knife and then I'll do some side by side comparisons with the factory pointy serrations vs the rounder ones and see how they differ. Any other materials you think might work better with the pointy teeth?
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#186

Post by Bill1170 »

Seatbelt cutting in a rescue situation might benefit from the pointy points because they’ll keep the edge from slipping off in a single cut scenario. For situations where one can saw back and forth, wavy serrations are better, in my opinion.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#187

Post by Evil D »

Bill1170 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:18 pm
Seatbelt cutting in a rescue situation might benefit from the pointy points because they’ll keep the edge from slipping off in a single cut scenario. For situations where one can saw back and forth, wavy serrations are better, in my opinion.


I haven't cut any seat belts yet because they're surprisingly expensive even from a junkyard but I'll look into it. I did cut some much heavier nylon strap in my Caribbean thread and it made the cuts with one pull. It seems to me that a cut would need to be much more of a full blade push cut for pointy teeth to have much advantage but as long as the blade is longer than the seat belt is wide you should be able to do that.
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dj moonbat
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#188

Post by dj moonbat »

Certainly for me, I find that an undulated edge works better than one that is genuinely serrated. I wonder if calculus can determine the ideal curvature. Should have stuck with math longer in high school.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#189

Post by bearfacedkiller »

Getting used to this thing. It does cut aggressively while not snagging so I think modding the serrations was a great move. I could use a smidge more plain edge at the tip once in a while and it does tend to steer a little when cutting plastic which is more a function of he chisel grind.

I won’t be replacing my plain edges anytime soon but the experiment is going well and this thing is growing on me. I am gonna keep carrying it. :)

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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#190

Post by PeaceInOurTime »

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:26 pm
Getting used to this thing. It does cut aggressively while not snagging so I think modding the serrations was a great move. I could use a smidge more plain edge at the tip once in a while and it does tend to steer a little when cutting plastic which is more a function of he chisel grind.

I won’t be replacing my plain edges anytime soon but the experiment is going well and this thing is growing on me. I am gonna keep carrying it. :)
It's good to hear your thoughts on SE, especially on the Shaman.

My year of only using SE is almost over and I'm looking forward to the option of using a PE again, even though SE has treated me well. This year has shown me that SE is perfectly capable and often preferable for many everyday cutting tasks. But there are times when the way a PE cuts, how it feels, is desirable over a SE.

A Dyad, or similar, may be in my future and CEs are back on my radar.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#191

Post by BLUETYPEII »

What Spyderco do you all think would be a good first full serrated blade?

Corrosion resistance and edge retention are the most important things to me.
Also there are no knife restrictions in the state I live in.

I’m hoping Spyderco will do the Tasman In LC200N like the new Pacific Salt, someone said they will be doing all the Salt H1 knives in the new green green and LC200N combo. That would be awesome. :D
40 Spyderco knives in 11 different steels,
1 Byrd and 30 “others”
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#192

Post by Evil D »

BLUETYPEII wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:38 pm
What Spyderco do you all think would be a good first full serrated blade?

Corrosion resistance and edge retention are the most important things to me.
Also there are no knife restrictions in the state I live in.

I’m hoping Spyderco will do the Tasman In LC200N like the new Pacific Salt, someone said they will be doing all the Salt H1 knives in the new green green and LC200N combo. That would be awesome. :D


Gotta say the Caribbean, though it's a bit expensive if you're not certain you'll like SE. The new FFG Pacific is a bit cheaper. If you think VG10 will satisfy your edge retention and corrosion needs then the Rock Jumper has been awesome. My opinion on edge retention and SE... I'd much rather sacrifice a bit of edge retention for an easier to sharpen and touch up steel. LC200N seems like the perfect middle ground for this so far of the steels I have in SE. H1 of course is also great but they lack FFG options which I really prefer.
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sal
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#193

Post by sal »

I've been going back and forth for 40 years. Edge angle, sharpening, edge shape, etc. always adds to my knowledge and understanding or the "edge" ( the ghost ). As time and experience is grown, I watch many of you go through similar learning curves, come to similar conclusions, and most important........................share.

You Edge Junky's are just plain nuts. :p

sal
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#194

Post by Wartstein »

BLUETYPEII wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:38 pm
What Spyderco do you all think would be a good first full serrated blade?

Corrosion resistance and edge retention are the most important things to me.
Also there are no knife restrictions in the state I live in.
Maximum corrosion resistance certainly speaks for an ffg SE LC200N model (as David said: Caribbean, Pac Salt..)

But let me throw the Endela SE in the mix: VG10 just for me is more than corrosion resistant enough either, and the serration pattern on the Endela works just amazingly well. Seems to be a tad less aggressive than the serrations on the Rock Jumper just judging from pics (so this is just a guess (!), since I don´t have a Rock Jumper SE ... yet :D ).
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#195

Post by cody6268 »

My first Spyderco was the Ladybug Salt Hawkbill; which I wanted a "small knife no one would pay any attention to using but with the cutting power of a big knife". And that little guy got used for everything, including bigger jobs that quite frankly, even a monster like the Buck 110 wouldn't handle. I then purchased a Byrd Cara Cara Rescue 2; which is one heck of a beast for heavy cutting jobs. Another forum I'm on did a Spyderco challenge--I picked up a vintage 1990s Harpy and a factory second Byrd Slip-It Wings. Those cut really well, and I like how the Byrd has both SE and PE edges. The Harpy is the Ladybug on steroids. Basically, as PE only knives; only two of my Spyderco are: the Dragonfly 2 that is an EDC; and a Ladybug I picked up as I liked the purple color.

Next Spyderco is going to be the Tasman Salt 2. Bigger than the Ladybug and Harpy, but lighter than the Harpy and its old school stainless handles.

I like PE for EDC, but I swear, Spyderco just "gets" serrations. They always cut great. Some manufacturers from knife to knife have variations depending on factory edges. Spydercos are very uniform, whether it's a $30 Byrd or a top of the line model.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#196

Post by BLUETYPEII »

Evil D wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:46 pm
BLUETYPEII wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:38 pm
What Spyderco do you all think would be a good first full serrated blade?

Corrosion resistance and edge retention are the most important things to me.
Also there are no knife restrictions in the state I live in.

I’m hoping Spyderco will do the Tasman In LC200N like the new Pacific Salt, someone said they will be doing all the Salt H1 knives in the new green green and LC200N combo. That would be awesome. :D


Gotta say the Caribbean, though it's a bit expensive if you're not certain you'll like SE. The new FFG Pacific is a bit cheaper. If you think VG10 will satisfy your edge retention and corrosion needs then the Rock Jumper has been awesome. My opinion on edge retention and SE... I'd much rather sacrifice a bit of edge retention for an easier to sharpen and touch up steel. LC200N seems like the perfect middle ground for this so far of the steels I have in SE. H1 of course is also great but they lack FFG options which I really prefer.
I really like the Caribbean it’s one of my favorite knives, I own the PE leaf shape. I also just got the PE Pacific Salt or that would be an excellent choice. I just really don’t want to get into having doubles of knives. What do you think about the Atlantic salt coming out? Also what do you think about Wartsteins suggestion of VG-10?
40 Spyderco knives in 11 different steels,
1 Byrd and 30 “others”
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#197

Post by BLUETYPEII »

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:18 am
BLUETYPEII wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:38 pm
What Spyderco do you all think would be a good first full serrated blade?

Corrosion resistance and edge retention are the most important things to me.
Also there are no knife restrictions in the state I live in.
Maximum corrosion resistance certainly speaks for an ffg SE LC200N model (as David said: Caribbean, Pac Salt..)

But let me throw the Endela SE in the mix: VG10 just for me is more than corrosion resistant enough either, and the serration pattern on the Endela works just amazingly well. Seems to be a tad less aggressive than the serrations on the Rock Jumper just judging from pics (so this is just a guess (!), since I don´t have a Rock Jumper SE ... yet :D ).
(See other post)

I was thinking of VG-10 as well. You can pick up a reasonably priced Spyderco in that steel no problem. Same question, what what do you think about the new Atlantic Salt coming out?
40 Spyderco knives in 11 different steels,
1 Byrd and 30 “others”
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sal
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#198

Post by sal »

Hi Cody,

Welcome to our forum.

sal
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#199

Post by Evil D »

BLUETYPEII wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:47 pm
Evil D wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:46 pm
BLUETYPEII wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:38 pm
What Spyderco do you all think would be good first full serrated blade?

Corrosion resistance and edge retention are the most important things to me.
Also there are no knife restrictions in the state I live in.

I’m hoping Spyderco will do the Tasman In LC200N like the new Pacific Salt, someone said they will be doing all the Salt H1 knives in the new green green and LC200N combo. That would be awesome. :D


Gotta say the Caribbean, though it's a bit expensive if you're not certain you'll like SE. The new FFG Pacific is a bit cheaper. If you think VG10 will satisfy your edge retention and corrosion needs then the Rock Jumper has been awesome. My opinion on edge retention and SE... I'd much rather sacrifice a bit of edge retention for an easier to sharpen and touch up steel. LC200N seems like the perfect middle ground for this so far of the steels I have in SE. H1 of course is also great but they lack FFG options which I really prefer.
I really like the Caribbean it’s one of my favorite knives, I own the PE leaf shape. I also just got the PE Pacific Salt or that would be an excellent choice. I just really don’t want to get into having doubles of knives. What do you think about the Atlantic salt coming out? Also what do you think about Wartsteins suggestion of VG-10?


VG10 has been great in my Rock Jumper and Stretch. Those knives aren't ground quite as nice as the Caribbean but if you plan to reprofile them I think you'll like it. That new Atlantic would have been a dream knife back when I was really into the Para 2.
All SE all the time since 2017
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#200

Post by USMC-88 »

Just read this (late to the book club) but it is a great testament to serrations on an EDC knife, my most carried knives have serrations because it works best for me. Awesome article!
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