SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

[curlyhairedboy]

Wonderful discussion, I've just caught up. I don't have too much experience with only using SE, but I would like to second the amazing performance of the salt serrated dragonfly. I had the hawkbill version and it was invaluable in day to day use.

The easiest way to explain to a layperson the appeal of a good spyderedge is to ask them to cut a thick plastic bottle in half with a sharp plain edge and then using a sharp spyderedge. It's a night and day difference, and much safer to use the spyderedge as it won't dangerously slip off or out of the cut.

[JD Spydo]

Had a bunch of Amazon points, so I ordered a set of CBN Sharpmaker rods. I'm going to try reprofiling my Pacific Salt and hopefully revitalize it. It's been used hard, and suffered some edge damage.

Connor, I´d really appreciate if you´d report back how the CBN Rods work for you / for reprofiling! Especially concerning serrated edges: Obviously, in that case you can only use the corners of the stones, and I´ve read several times that this is not really recommended, since the corners wear out a lot faster than the flats (which must be true logically). But then I don´t know what the corners would be there for anyway, if one should not really use them... maybe just for touching up harder steels like ZDP, not for reprofiling??

I sure will. I'm just going to have to be very careful not to put pressure on the corners as I sharpen. I'm confident that they will hold up just fine.

Wasn't part of the appeal of CBN rods something about the particles not ripping off the rods? I have blank spots on my diamond rods from trying to reprofile an Ulize. You really do need to be gentle and let the grit do the work. Unfortunately it can be time consuming but you shouldn't have to do it often.

That's the main reason I bought a set of DMT conical diamond rods to do reprofiling for Spyderedges and other serration patterns as well. Yeah I learned the hard way too that you can't put the even pressure on those diamond rods like you can with the ceramic stones>> I know I've been through about 3 sets of diamond rods now. That's why I do the really rough stuff with the DMT conical rods. You can even get those DMT rods in ceramic too and the ceramic really puts a nice smooth edge to see up for work on a Sharpmaker or manual sticks like I prefer to use most of the time.

[ladybug93]

bumping this thread because it’s too good to be this buried and also because i had an interesting experience yesterday...

i was cutting really thick cardboard to break it down for the recycling bin. i was using my trusty manix. it was doing fine, but was hanging up a little and the blade was hot after making a couple cuts. i decided to switch to my pac salt to see how se performed on the thick cardboard. it went through like a breeze. it snagged less and made straighter, cleaner cuts. i wasn’t sawing the cardboard, but push cutting. i couldn’t believe how nice it was.

i’m wondering if this had more to do with the differences between a ffg vs a hollow grind, or if the serrations had something to do with it. whatever the case, this really made me want to speed up my acquisition of a caribbean sheepsfoot in se.

[Wartstein]

bumping this thread because it’s too good to be this buried and also because i had an interesting experience yesterday...

i was cutting really thick cardboard to break it down for the recycling bin. i was using my trusty manix. it was doing fine, but was hanging up a little and the blade was hot after making a couple cuts. i decided to switch to my pac salt to see how se performed on the thick cardboard. it went through like a breeze. it snagged less and made straighter, cleaner cuts. i wasn’t sawing the cardboard, but push cutting. i couldn’t believe how nice it was.

i’m wondering if this had more to do with the differences between a ffg vs a hollow grind, or if the serrations had something to do with it. whatever the case, this really made me want to speed up my acquisition of a caribbean sheepsfoot in se.

Similar to my experiences! Though shallower serrations (..than the Pac Salt has) in ffg work even better for me personally, so I´d assume it was not the hollow grind that made the Pac Salt better in your "test".

If not to the serrations themselves, I´d rather contribute the superior performance of spyderedged blades to the very acute chisel grind.. I mean, if the knife is sharpened to lets say 15 degrees, we´re talking 15 degrees inclusive here and not per side like on PE blades...

Said it before: If this was possible,nowadays I´d like to have at least 80 or 90 percent of the Spydies I currently own to be in SE...but I did not realize how good Spydercos SE really is at the time when I bought the knives, and many of them sadly just don´t come in ffg SE or generally SE at all.. (Manix, Chap, Stretch, even the regular Endura just comes in sabre grind SE... )

[ladybug93]

bumping this thread because it’s too good to be this buried and also because i had an interesting experience yesterday...

i was cutting really thick cardboard to break it down for the recycling bin. i was using my trusty manix. it was doing fine, but was hanging up a little and the blade was hot after making a couple cuts. i decided to switch to my pac salt to see how se performed on the thick cardboard. it went through like a breeze. it snagged less and made straighter, cleaner cuts. i wasn’t sawing the cardboard, but push cutting. i couldn’t believe how nice it was.

i’m wondering if this had more to do with the differences between a ffg vs a hollow grind, or if the serrations had something to do with it. whatever the case, this really made me want to speed up my acquisition of a caribbean sheepsfoot in se.

Similar to my experiences! Though shallower serrations (..than the Pac Salt has) in ffg work even better for me personally, so I´d assume it was not the hollow grind that made the Pac Salt better in your "test".

If not to the serrations themselves, I´d rather contribute the superior performance of spyderedged blades to the very acute chisel grind.. I mean, if the knife is sharpened to lets say 15 degrees, we´re talking 15 degrees inclusive here and not per side like on PE blades...

Said it before: If this was possible,nowadays I´d like to have at least 80 or 90 percent of the Spydies I currently own to be in SE...but I did not realize how good Spydercos SE really is at the time when I bought the knives, and many of them sadly just don´t come in ffg SE or generally SE at all.. (Manix, Chap, Stretch, even the regular Endura just comes in sabre grind SE... )

the manix is my all-time, all-around favorite pocket knife ever. however, my top three spydercos are the manix, yojimbo, and pacific salt se. if i were to put all my favorite parts of each of them into a single design, i’d end up with something close to a se caribbean. i still don’t really care for the looks of the caribbean, but a little dye and some grinding could potentially get me closer to where i want to be though. i may end up in the all se, all the time camp.

[jezabel]

Nice to see someone educating the masses EVIL D!
My personal pet peeve is the average knife user instinctively using serrated knifes like a saw...

As you pointed out not all serrations are created equal, my personal preference are relatively shallow serrations with slightly rounded tips. I find this grind extremely versatile, if kept sharp is great for both slicing and push cuts.

The most unusable serrations I've encounter would be the old VG10 SE ATR.. they were deep and brutally pointy.


My go to work knife for many years has been the 440V SE Millie which I have 3 in rotation, but these old girls have been worked to the bone and are now getting a little tired. This has forced me to look at other knives since these have not been available in some time. These days you'll most likely find me with an SE Para2 or an SE Matriach 2 in my pocket, both exceptional knives but I miss that 4 inch fully serrated FFG blade.

I keep my serrations sharp with the 701 profiles, which have performed great until the coarse rod started to develop chips a couple of year back, hence why my 440v Millies aren't doing so well these days, the fine rod has kept vg10 & s30V serrations razor sharp so far.


Where am I heading with this ...?

I need the SE Millie and 701 profiles return .... please Sal.

J

[Mattysc42]

I FINALLY got my SE Caribbean edge completely fixed up after working on it over the last few months. Broke down a couple boxes with it today, and can’t help but marvel at how well it went through the cardboard. I’m thrilled to have that knife back in my rotation.

[Holland]

Awesome thread, this needs a bump

[Evil D]

I thought this was pretty interesting, this was posted on a couple Spyderco social media pages. Those serrations look pretty shallow and mellow, and I have to assume being a Worker they also have to be some of the very first serrations. Was there a deliberate change to the deeper and chunkier serrations?

[Holland]

I thought this was pretty interesting, this was posted on a couple Spyderco social media pages. Those serrations look pretty shallow and mellow, and I have to assume being a Worker they also have to be some of the very first serrations. Was there a deliberate change to the deeper and chunkier serrations?

I would own a lot more serrated knives if they all came like that

[Tucson Tom]

What a fantastic starting post and this whole discussion is amazing. Thanks David.

[Donut]

It could be the whole "It's much easier to remove material than it is to add material."

Are we going to make a new ED (Evil D) edge with the points rounded off at the factory? I bet you a million (or a few hundred) people who use SE for work would really appreciate it.

Is there any type of cutting where the pointy SE would have an advantage? I think your testing and solution is the one where you want to use a SE to do tasks where a PE would do well or possibly great. In my head I'm thinking of cutting a tomato, the points can help you poke through the skin. My second thought is cutting PVC tube, the pointy teeth could give you some grip or stability instead of slipping off.

Maybe we should evaluate SE for various outdoorsy/survival tasks. See if we can find some pros and cons of SE. I've read that some survival experts learn to do everything with a swiss army knife to show their students that "what type?" of knife isn't super important.

You know... Michael Janich talks about how SE isn't so great for self defense because a SE edge will hold onto jeans and it will sometimes grab and slide the jeans over what you're trying to cut. :P After all I've heard, then he goes and buys a SE Jazz Delica. We'll have to see what he thinks after doing some testing.

[AH80s]

I thought this was pretty interesting, this was posted on a couple Spyderco social media pages. Those serrations look pretty shallow and mellow, and I have to assume being a Worker they also have to be some of the very first serrations. Was there a deliberate change to the deeper and chunkier serrations?

Thanks Evil D for this thread. :) As a non se owner it’s very interesting.
That worker looks biased to pull cuts maybe.

[Bill1170]

I thought this was pretty interesting, this was posted on a couple Spyderco social media pages. Those serrations look pretty shallow and mellow, and I have to assume being a Worker they also have to be some of the very first serrations. Was there a deliberate change to the deeper and chunkier serrations?

Thanks Evil D for this thread. :) As a non se owner it’s very interesting.
That worker looks biased to pull cuts maybe.

I think the apparent pull cut bias is an artifact of the the lighting in the photo.

[AH80s]

I thought this was pretty interesting, this was posted on a couple Spyderco social media pages. Those serrations look pretty shallow and mellow, and I have to assume being a Worker they also have to be some of the very first serrations. Was there a deliberate change to the deeper and chunkier serrations?

Thanks Evil D for this thread. :) As a non se owner it’s very interesting.
That worker looks biased to pull cuts maybe.

I think the apparent pull cut bias is an artifact of the the lighting in the photo.

Yes Bill, I think you may be right. :)

[Evil D]

It could be the whole "It's much easier to remove material than it is to add material."

Are we going to make a new ED (Evil D) edge with the points rounded off at the factory? I bet you a million (or a few hundred) people who use SE for work would really appreciate it.

Is there any type of cutting where the pointy SE would have an advantage? I think your testing and solution is the one where you want to use a SE to do tasks where a PE would do well or possibly great. In my head I'm thinking of cutting a tomato, the points can help you poke through the skin. My second thought is cutting PVC tube, the pointy teeth could give you some grip or stability instead of slipping off.

Maybe we should evaluate SE for various outdoorsy/survival tasks. See if we can find some pros and cons of SE. I've read that some survival experts learn to do everything with a swiss army knife to show their students that "what type?" of knife isn't super important.

You know... Michael Janich talks about how SE isn't so great for self defense because a SE edge will hold onto jeans and it will sometimes grab and slide the jeans over what you're trying to cut. :P After all I've heard, then he goes and buys a SE Jazz Delica. We'll have to see what he thinks after doing some testing.

I don't remember who but someone mentioned that they felt the sharper teeth worked better with cutting rope because the teeth push their way in between the fibers more aggressively.

The thing with the rounded teeth (or generally just less sharp/pointy teeth) is that they reduce snagging for pretty much every other scenario, while still cutting far more aggressively than PE. If you're cutting a tomato it probably won't matter as much in a slicing motion but sharper teeth may penetrate the skin easier in a straight push cut, but then you'll also come to the bottom of the tomato on the cutting board and find that your teeth hit the board before the tomato is sliced all the way so you either pick the tomato up and cut it in mid air or you have to finish with a slicing motion against the cutting board.

So far my Caribbean seems to still excel at the cutting tasks that you'd expect SE to excel at, it just doesn't snag and struggle in the ways that most people expect SE to struggle. Rounding off the teeth a bit seems to be practically all gains and no losses in performance, at least from an EDC perspective. As you said there may be some cutting task I haven't run into where sharper teeth will work better, but then that knife won't work as well for all the other things I cut, and since I haven't run into that scenario it may never matter.

As for SD, I would expect sharper teeth to exaggerate the problems Michael is talking about. I would love to send him my Caribbean sheepscliffe and let him do some meat man tests with it.

[JD Spydo]

It could be the whole "It's much easier to remove material than it is to add material."

Are we going to make a new ED (Evil D) edge with the points rounded off at the factory? I bet you a million (or a few hundred) people who use SE for work would really appreciate it.

Is there any type of cutting where the pointy SE would have an advantage? I think your testing and solution is the one where you want to use a SE to do tasks where a PE would do well or possibly great. In my head I'm thinking of cutting a tomato, the points can help you poke through the skin. My second thought is cutting PVC tube, the pointy teeth could give you some grip or stability instead of slipping off.

Maybe we should evaluate SE for various outdoorsy/survival tasks. See if we can find some pros and cons of SE. I've read that some survival experts learn to do everything with a swiss army knife to show their students that "what type?" of knife isn't super important.

You know... Michael Janich talks about how SE isn't so great for self defense because a SE edge will hold onto jeans and it will sometimes grab and slide the jeans over what you're trying to cut. :P After all I've heard, then he goes and buys a SE Jazz Delica. We'll have to see what he thinks after doing some testing.

I don't remember who but someone mentioned that they felt the sharper teeth worked better with cutting rope because the teeth push their way in between the fibers more aggressively.

The thing with the rounded teeth (or generally just less sharp/pointy teeth) is that they reduce snagging for pretty much every other scenario, while still cutting far more aggressively than PE. If you're cutting a tomato it probably won't matter as much in a slicing motion but sharper teeth may penetrate the skin easier in a straight push cut, but then you'll also come to the bottom of the tomato on the cutting board and find that your teeth hit the board before the tomato is sliced all the way so you either pick the tomato up and cut it in mid air or you have to finish with a slicing motion against the cutting board.

As for SD, I would expect sharper teeth to exaggerate the problems Michael is talking about. I would love to send him my Caribbean sheepscliffe and let him do some meat man tests with it.

Also don't overlook blade geometry. Because with the C60 Ayoob model which is a blade that has a well defined "belly" to it. One of our past members i.e. Doc Snubnose did a meat test with a full SE version of the C-60 and he claimed the results were astounding. Oh I totally agree with you that the type of serration pattern plays a huge role>> but don't overlook certain blade designs either.

I'm now wondering what type of SE pattern that they are going to use on the upcoming C-60 Ayoob Sprint Run? I sure hope it isn't the typical "spikey" type of serration but rather the type you're talking about. I would love to see a side by side comparison of the Caribbean and the C-60 Ayoob for SE performance.

[Evil D]

I'm now wondering what type of SE pattern that they are going to use on the upcoming C-60 Ayoob Sprint Run? I sure hope it isn't the typical "spikey" type of serration but rather the type you're talking about. I would love to see a side by side comparison of the Caribbean and the C-60 Ayoob for SE performance.

Yeah, it's unfortunate in a way because the more I learn about these details the more I see that some models just aren't what I'm looking for, and I really hope the Ayoob comes with nice serrations. If not I'll have to reprofile them the best I can.

[James Y]

Off the top of my head, my favorite full-SE Spyderco models that I have are my Endela, old SS Harpy, and my old saber-ground Delica 4. Their teeth were not spiky or aggressive at all, even out of the box, and they cut very easily because of it. The Endela is still new, so I’m still trying to find things to use it on (being out of work has lessened my daily need for uses of knives).

Personally, I’d rather have no serrations on my knife at all than overly-spiky ones, with overly-deep and narrow scallops.

Jim

[sal]

Great stuff David.

It all begins with the grinding stone that cuts the serrations. It's a formed wheel that must be redressed every 10 - 50 blades depending on the steel. I've always felt that the Sharpmaker was the best pairing with Spyderco teeth. I try to keep my serrated knife edges like David's Caribbean as I agree that it works the best for all around cutting.

Unfortunately it does take a greater understanding of teeth, which David's tutorial does very well. We learned this back in the late 70's when we invented the Sharpmaker and introduced production teeth in '82. Kinda like "Tuning".

"The edge is a Ghost", the Spyderedge is even more of a ghost. Thanx much David for supplying the "special glasses" needed to see the ghost.

sal