SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Ramonade
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#321

Post by Ramonade »

Little update : SE versions of the Delica, Endura or Endela are pretty pricy over here in France. Only "correct" price I found is 110€ for a SE Endura.
Since I wanted a griptillian sheepsfoot to try for a long time, I ordered one instead. If it looks like this knife won't get any pocket time, I'll return it to amazon and buy that SE Endura.

Can I sharpen a SpyderEdge without the sharpmaker? Because that would be a big investment, 110€ for the knife and 80€ for the SharpMaker (without any future upgrade).
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#322

Post by Evil D »

Ramonade wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:22 am
Little update : SE versions of the Delica, Endura or Endela are pretty pricy over here in France. Only "correct" price I found is 110€ for a SE Endura.
Since I wanted a griptillian sheepsfoot to try for a long time, I ordered one instead. If it looks like this knife won't get any pocket time, I'll return it to amazon and buy that SE Endura.

Can I sharpen a SpyderEdge without the sharpmaker? Because that would be a big investment, 110€ for the knife and 80€ for the SharpMaker (without any future upgrade).

You can freehand them on the corner of a bench stone but the Sharpmaker does make it easier to get repeatable results. I would avoid diamond rods unless I had no other choice.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#323

Post by dsvirsky »

The Gatco Tri-seps and the Lansky Dogbone are small, handheld sharpeners designed for serrations. Both are medium ceramic, equivalent to the brown Sharpmaker triangles. Not as convenient as the Sharpmaker, but they'll get the job done for around $10 - $15.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#324

Post by Ramonade »

Evil D wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:28 am
Ramonade wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:22 am
Little update : SE versions of the Delica, Endura or Endela are pretty pricy over here in France. Only "correct" price I found is 110€ for a SE Endura.
Since I wanted a griptillian sheepsfoot to try for a long time, I ordered one instead. If it looks like this knife won't get any pocket time, I'll return it to amazon and buy that SE Endura.

Can I sharpen a SpyderEdge without the sharpmaker? Because that would be a big investment, 110€ for the knife and 80€ for the SharpMaker (without any future upgrade).

You can freehand them on the corner of a bench stone but the Sharpmaker does make it easier to get repeatable results. I would avoid diamond rods unless I had no other choice.
I see, people seem to tend towards the Sharpmaker as an answer for an edge nut like me. It was always plain edge nut, but i'm pretty sure as soon as I'll get a SE model, I'll become a spyderedge nut.
dsvirsky wrote: The Gatco Tri-seps and the Lansky Dogbone are small, handheld sharpeners designed for serrations. Both are medium ceramic, equivalent to the brown Sharpmaker triangles. Not as convenient as the Sharpmaker, but they'll get the job done for around $10 - $15.
Thanks for the other sharpeners, I'll check them out, to see if I can imagine myself getting good result with them.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#325

Post by Wartstein »

Ramonade wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:19 pm
Sonorum wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:27 pm
Ramonade wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:00 pm
Why did I read this thread?
I am now sold on the idea that my next knife (Spyderco obviously) will be in SE configuration.
Now, it is the model that is gonna be important... Endela, Para 3 LW, another of my beloved Native 5s in a new steel, or something else entirely?

I would even be more enclined towards a tough steel, so i could use it on dining plates without worrying too much, the points would get dull but the scallops won't !
The Endela seems to be widely regarded as a very good fully SE knife that's ready to cut from the start. Can't go wrong with it!
Seems that way... And then I'll be able to go talk about how this name is weird with y'all !
As weird as it sound, I do not own any Delica/Endela/Endura and am pretty sur I am missing something considering how much of a staple knife each of 'em is.
I am one of those who always recommends the Endela for trying out SE, and I totally stand by it.
Actually it was this model that "converted" me to SE... ;)
I'd go with VG10 and not K390 for a "first"! (Though admittedly I have no experience with K390 in SE. It's just that SE has better edge retention than PE anyway, and serrated VG10 is great and will be easier to sharpen).
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#326

Post by Ramonade »

I did impulse buy a ZDP-189 Endura 4 lol.
But the next thing on my list is definitely a SE knife. The edge retention being improved on SE makes it so I can stick With the basic VG10 Endela no problem. Isnt H1 pretty different in SE configuration too btw?
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#327

Post by Evil D »

Ramonade wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:04 am
I did impulse buy a ZDP-189 Endura 4 lol.
But the next thing on my list is definitely a SE knife. The edge retention being improved on SE makes it so I can stick With the basic VG10 Endela no problem. Isnt H1 pretty different in SE configuration too btw?


VG10 is excellent in SE, it's very well rounded and very well suited for serrations. H1 is tougher but at some point both steels will see damage so it may never matter depending on what you're cutting. Edge retention is a bit of a gray area, I've used my Rock Jumper for extended periods without resharpening and while it does continue to cut, the performance also drops below what I'm happy with so I still recommend frequent touch ups regardless of the steel you use. Those touch ups may happen more than you want to do them but in the long run they'll be faster and less of a hassle to do than dealing with a very dull edge and you'll start each day with a fresh edge meaning that more often than not you're using a sharper edge than if you rely on edge retention alone. Honestly I don't know why everyone doesn't do this even with plain edge, I can't leave the house with a knife that I know isn't freshly sharpened, it just feels like I'm knowingly going out in the world less prepared than I could be. It's almost as strange to me as people who don't carry a knife at all.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#328

Post by Ramonade »

I totally agree with carrying a knife with a perpetual "perfect", fine edge. I do not let any of them go in the working edge territory. Super steels just (often, but not always) keep this fine edge longer, that's the benefit i take from them. I own enough knife to allow myself to sharpen a bit more than most of the people, even tho the russian stropping compound i use is most of the time plenty enough to stay hair poppin' sharp !

Thanks for the advices and informations, I look forward to entering the SE world :)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#329

Post by Wartstein »

Ramonade wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:04 am
I did impulse buy a ZDP-189 Endura 4 lol.
But the next thing on my list is definitely a SE knife. The edge retention being improved on SE makes it so I can stick With the basic VG10 Endela no problem. Isnt H1 pretty different in SE configuration too btw?
To be clear: My "SE knowledge" is nowhere near Davids, but I happen to be able to talk about VG10 and H1 in SE:

- H1 is amazing in SE (especially the edge retention), but in the way it comes for me a bit less versatile than at least my VG10 SE Endela:
H1 one only comes in sabre hollow, the blades do not taper the way the ffg SE blades tend to do, and H1 seems to get a bit more "aggressive" serrations

- The VG10 (and ffg!) Endela though for me really cuts like a "better PE". And I am with David: VG10 IS perfect in and somehow "gets boosted" by SE imho.

So for a first SE experience the Endela SE is my recommendation, and most likely a close second to the even better Caribbean SE.

Other options, like Salt 2 or Pac Salt ffg SE are really good too, but still more aggressive than the Endela SE which comes almost perfect for allround SE blade out of the box imo.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#330

Post by Ramonade »

Any input is good from my point of view. Trying the SE is like discovering the knife world once again for me !
I like the sound of "allround blade", considering i'll be trying this with no particular use in mind, the use cases will come along the way :)
Thank both of you, next month is gonna be interesting ! (and then it'll be the turn of K390 and rex45 (because i'm not rich enough to find some rex121).
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#331

Post by Wartstein »

Ramonade wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:43 am
Any input is good from my point of view. Trying the SE is like discovering the knife world once again for me !
I like the sound of "allround blade", considering i'll be trying this with no particular use in mind, the use cases will come along the way :)
Thank both of you, next month is gonna be interesting ! (and then it'll be the turn of K390 and rex45 (because i'm not rich enough to find some rex121).
"Allround blade" = shallow serrations for me indeed.

To perhaps better explain what I am trying to say:

- When using my Pac Salt SE in H1, Delica sabre grind CE, Stretch 1 CE, Salt 2 ffg SE: They all perform great (especially Pac Salt and Salt 2), better than PE for me in most tasks, but I still clearly notice that there are teeth when cutting (just notice it, not meant positive or negative) - all have a bit more aggressive serrations out of the box

- When I got my Endela SE (shallow serrations): I was amazed how It really almost felt like cutting with a "better, slicier plain edge", not with a serrated edge, pretty much out of the box. Could even be that not only the serrations, but also the compared to most PE Spydies more acute (chisel) grind contributes to this more or less.

The more aggressive serrations might be better suited for some special tasks - but for an everyday, do it all cutting tool I´d go "shallow" (Endela and Caribbean SE are the one I am aware of right now that certainly will offer this. Though from what I can see perhaps all the K390 SE models and the VG10 wharnie Endura / Delica SE are as good in that regard, but I am not sure).
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#332

Post by Naperville »

Can you imagine a Full SE Native Chief XL with a 5 inch blade?

Full SE Native Chief XL could happen if we can get everyone on board. I'll buy one myself!

I want the plain edge version too...my family will take 5.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#333

Post by Evil D »

Naperville wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:44 pm
Can you imagine a Full SE Native Chief XL with a 5 inch blade?

Full SE Native Chief XL could happen if we can get everyone on board. I'll buy one myself!

I want the plain edge version too...my family will take 5.




Oh I see.....let's get the crazy guy who's obsessed with serrations on your side to support your ideas and maybe he can help push it into reality, is that it? Well ya know what buddy I know what you're up to and if you think it's going to work on me then you're absolutely right.


🤔



I dunno, still seems too big, but so does the Police 4 and I'm getting by ok with it. The Police 4 actually showed me that there is an upper limit to what I like and I probably wouldn't buy many knives in that size range, but I'd definitely be a lot more interested in your Native 5 Chief Too Dang XL idea if it came with serrations. Actually a standard SE Native Chief is pretty high on my wish list already, I really like the model and I'm just waiting for an excuse to get one.


But, overall I think I've found that around 3.75 inches of cutting edge is perfect for my uses, despite however less effective it would be at murdering people 😉
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#334

Post by Naperville »

Evil D wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:41 am
Naperville wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:44 pm
Can you imagine a Full SE Native Chief XL with a 5 inch blade?

Full SE Native Chief XL could happen if we can get everyone on board. I'll buy one myself!

I want the plain edge version too...my family will take 5.
Oh I see.....let's get the crazy guy who's obsessed with serrations on your side to support your ideas and maybe he can help push it into reality, is that it? Well ya know what buddy I know what you're up to and if you think it's going to work on me then you're absolutely right.


🤔


I dunno, still seems too big, but so does the Police 4 and I'm getting by ok with it. The Police 4 actually showed me that there is an upper limit to what I like and I probably wouldn't buy many knives in that size range, but I'd definitely be a lot more interested in your Native 5 Chief Too Dang XL idea if it came with serrations. Actually a standard SE Native Chief is pretty high on my wish list already, I really like the model and I'm just waiting for an excuse to get one.

But, overall I think I've found that around 3.75 inches of cutting edge is perfect for my uses, despite however less effective it would be at murdering people 😉
Just one thing. I'm only 35 to 40 miles from the Lake, 20 miles from the West Side. I'm NOT interested in killing anyone, but if I was I'd just go down to the West side of Chicago, Illinois or over to Gary, Indiana and buy a firearm and box of rounds for $250. I guarantee within 2 trips I'd have the firearm. I could have done that decades ago.

I even used to legally own firearms. At least 10 of them, nothing but the best, but I sold them before I rode a motorcycle in to Silicon Valley, California for a job in 1999.

The Native Chief XL is not about any of that. A small knife would definitely require multiple wounds to stop an assailant. A larger knife might avoid bloodshed completely, just by the reveal. I've never stuck anyone with a knife, and I own 90 of them.

:smiling-halo

Let's get these knives made!
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#335

Post by Evil D »

Naperville wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:32 am
I've never stuck anyone with a knife, and I own 90 of them.

:smiling-halo

Let's get these knives made!



I know man, the whole self defense topic gets so serious, I just try to make jokes and lighten the mood sometimes.


It took something like 10 years to get the Chief into production though, so if this ever does happen we might be a good bit older before we see it.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#336

Post by Naperville »

Evil D wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:36 am
Naperville wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:32 am
I've never stuck anyone with a knife, and I own 90 of them.

:smiling-halo

Let's get these knives made!
I know man, the whole self defense topic gets so serious, I just try to make jokes and lighten the mood sometimes.

It took something like 10 years to get the Chief into production though, so if this ever does happen we might be a good bit older before we see it.
I hear ya. Levity is good. :smlling-eyes

I'm 61 now. I assume I'll have more cash available the longer we wait. That could mean just one thing! More knives!!!

:squinting-tongue
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#337

Post by Pete1977 »

I just got around to reading this and as a long time SE Spyderco user I have to say EvilD hit the nail on the head. Great post.

I used serrated spyderco and byrd knives for almost 20 years commercial fishing and working on tugboats. The grind of the serrations makes all the difference in their performance. Deep pointy serrations rip, tear and snag especially if they are not maintained and I found them difficult to resharpen. Shallow flatter serrations cut as well as or better than a plain edge and are easier to maintain.

I carried a Byrd Cara Cara Rescue SE for two years until I lost it lobstering and then a Byrd Rescue 2 for another 5 or 7 years after that.
The serrations on the CCR were similar to those on your Caribbean Salt (which is on my must have list by the way :) ) shallow, flat and extremely easy to maintain on the sharpmaker.

When Sal sent me the Byrd R2 as a replacement the serrations were similar but not as flat or scalloped as the original CCR. They were however much more useful than on say a Police or Atlantic Salt. i believe i used the flats of the diamond sharpmaker rods to thin them out at first.

I used that knife until the serrations were worn off and eventually the clip broke and I relegated it to my cruiser when I changed careers.

I still keep a serrated or partially serrated spyderco handy (currently a CE Police) but find myself content with a PE for the cutting chores I encounter on an average day.

Depending on the knife, if the serrations are too pointed, deep, or rip and tear through the medium i am cutting, I will reprofile them to thinner, less “pointy” serrations. Ultimately however I tend to gravitate towards knives with the less pronounced teeth.

My current daily carry knives are a plain edge Tenacious I just got today as a Christmas gift and the CE Police I rehabbed. I also keep a PE Pacific Salt and a SE Atlantic Salt with my gear.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#338

Post by Pete1977 »

Three or four years ago I was given a little Buck Bantam which replaced my Byrd Rescue. It was my only knife for that entire three or four years. It was plain edged, the blade was perhaps three inches and I only sharpened it with the sharpmaker white rods almost the entire time and it cut as well as any of my Spyders.
While I missed the Spyderedge I did find that sharpening technique did make all the difference to cutting performance.
I have mainly gravitated back to PE knives simply because I have gotten lazy in my desire to sharpen or even touch up a knife and the plain edge, for me, is easier to get sharper in less time with less work than the fully or partially serrated edge.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#339

Post by JDubs »

First things first. It’s been ages since I lurked in here, and even longer since someone brought in a new can of worms to open up. So, congrats on that. :-)

Also, to whoever mentioned not using the tapered rod, I feel your pain. As does my old BM AFCK D2. Le sigh.

But back to the can of worms at hand, and my initial thoughts:

-I’ve had some truly cheap/ crappy knives with small, shallow serrations that performed beautifully in certain materials. I’ve had brand new spyderco and others that simply got hung up. But I’ll always remember cutting a fabric shroud off of a piece of equipment while I was in the service… and accidentally sawing halfway through a 5/8” aluminum reinforcement with an old Gerber gator that was partially serrated. Serrations are amazingly efficient sometimes.

-After 12-15 years of sharpening, (as a soldier, and later contexts) I got schooled on what real sharpening looks like in a traditional woodworking environment. I still love the few combo edge knives that I have, from a variety of makers, but in most cases, it’s not my go to anymore. And there are SO many different ways to use a knife besides hacking and sawing away at something, that I can’t really stick with serrations as an exclusive lifestyle choice.

-Then again, I typically give the side-eye to anyone who’s exuberant enough to boldly proclaim exclusive lifestyle choices like that.

-The Spyderco pattern is a joy. The fact that they offer specific equipment for it is the BIG DEAL. I’ve seen so many other serration patterns and spacing from a variety of high-end manufacturers that refuse to offer sharpening on serrations. The ability to keep a knife sharp is far and away the biggest factor that makes for a useable knife. So a serration pattern that has a specific, compatible sharpening system will always be most important to me. The rest is just details.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#340

Post by DrHE »

I just bought a Pacific Salt 2 SE in LC200N and it’s a really amazing cutter. That FFG endura sized knife with an edge full of teeth is just amazing out of the box. I hadn’t hand anything in SE in years except my old Spyder-wrench (440c SE blade) that’s still going strong.
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