SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

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Wartstein
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#61

Post by Wartstein »

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:26 pm
Had a bunch of Amazon points, so I ordered a set of CBN Sharpmaker rods. I'm going to try reprofiling my Pacific Salt and hopefully revitalize it. It's been used hard, and suffered some edge damage.
Connor, I´d really appreciate if you´d report back how the CBN Rods work for you / for reprofiling! Especially concerning serrated edges: Obviously, in that case you can only use the corners of the stones, and I´ve read several times that this is not really recommended, since the corners wear out a lot faster than the flats (which must be true logically). But then I don´t know what the corners would be there for anyway, if one should not really use them... maybe just for touching up harder steels like ZDP, not for reprofiling??
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
vivi
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#62

Post by vivi »

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:26 pm
Had a bunch of Amazon points, so I ordered a set of CBN Sharpmaker rods. I'm going to try reprofiling my Pacific Salt and hopefully revitalize it. It's been used hard, and suffered some edge damage.
After trying to reprofile an abused and neglected Tasman Salt with the brown rods, I finally ordered diamond rods.

As a user of SE knives, I will never go back to not owning a set of diamond or cbn sharp maker rods. They are essential for reprofiling and repairing SE.

If you don't damage your edge or let it get very dull the brown rods work great, but for a seriously dull SE knife or any sort of reprofiling, these low grit rods are essential.

I've been using the corners of mine a lot to clean up a few serrated knives. They feel a little smoother but still cut well. It's crucial to use light pressure.

It also gives you another finishing option. The medium stones in the stock SM set give a pretty polished edge. For some uses its better to leave the finish toothy straight off the diamond rods. I've been sharpening my PE Aqua Salt that way and it shows better edge longevity VS higher grit finishes. I tried leaving one of my Pacific Salts with a diamond rod finish and I have never seen a knife slice so aggressively.

I snagged a beat up Pacific Salt that had been ground at about 25 degrees with bent and chipped serrations. Got it real cheap, mainly to test out how a full reprofiling would go with these rods. It was so much faster than using the brown stones.

Here's what that knife looks like these days:

Image

I ground it at 15 degrees on the diamond rods until the old bevels were completely gone, then polished it up a bit at the same angle on the brown rods. It was butter knife dull when I got it, and now it cleanly shaves. The serrations points are very worn down from resetting the bevel, but it cuts just fine like this. The black one I used to EDC has points much closer to my NIB backups than this one.

At some point I'm going to try reprofiling a PE knife to 15 degrees inclusive on the flats. I've always reprofiled PE knives free hand, but since I have this option I'd like to give it a try.
Last edited by vivi on Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ric
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#63

Post by Ric »

The corners are for the SE.
Even if the stones are "worn out" they are still more aggressive than the brown stones.
Always use no pressure when working with CBN/diamonds.

For a real reprofiling I recommend other system as the sharpmaker...
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Wartstein
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#64

Post by Wartstein »

Evil D wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:23 pm

SE are the bees knees and you need to get with the program......
David, that - I really have to call it "article", for it is much more than just a post - is really a great, comprehensive and informative piece of work. I enjoyed reading it and it made me look at SE edges in ways, I would never have been able without it.

Let me just emphasize some points you made. That may be valuable, since I somehow represent "the mass" of (less than) average experienced sharpeners out there, while in your case people might think: "Well, Evil D is a Pro when it comes to sharpening and SE, so maybe I can´t do what he can".

1.) So, folks, as a really NOT good-at-sharpening-at-all-guy, let me repeat Davids statement and believe me:

GET A SHARPMAKER ;) when it comes to serrated edges! Watch the instructional DVD, and at least as helpfull, have a look at Vivis great tips in his thread about sharpening serrated knives: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84544 (one of the most important for me really was to very frequently clean the sharpmaker rods. Since on SE knives, you only use the corners, and those get "clogged up" faster than the flats)

It is really no problem for me to sharpen SE with the Sharpmaker and following those tips, and again, I am generally not an experienced sharpener at all and even less so when it comes to Spyderedges.

2.) Since I got my Endela SE I totally get how one can get to the point where he or she solely carries serrated blades. As a matter of fact, I actually largely DO so myself since I got that Endela. Its SE blade is just a superior cutter, and I have yet to find a task where I would bemissing my plain edged knives.
And, again, since touching up the Endela on the SM is just a breeze, I honestly just don´t find a reason to carry one of my beloved Enduras or Stretches, other than the longer edges those models offer...

The Endela SE (together with probably the Wharnie versions of Endura and Delica plus maybe the Caribbean (though the latter has thicker stock) may very well be the currently available knife that represents best the properties David generally wants in a serrated blade, as far as I understand:

Thin stock, rather shallow "ridges" and rather round teeth.
That might very well be why not just I, but also way more experienced knife guys praise the Endela SE as an amazing performer
Last edited by Wartstein on Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#65

Post by Wartstein »

Ric wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:07 am
The corners are for the SE.
Even if the stones are "worn out" they are still more aggressive than the brown stones.
Always use no pressure when working with CBN/diamonds.

For a real reprofiling I recommend other system as the sharpmaker...
Thanks! Since I already have and like the sharpmaker, I guess I´d take it for reprofiling either (with CBN or diamond rods), IF its only disadvantage is that it takes more time than using another system ...
Last edited by Wartstein on Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#66

Post by tonijedi »

Vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:38 pm
tonijedi wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:21 pm
fkmtb07 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:14 am
Awesome writeup!

My SE Salt 2 is one of my most carried knives, but I do struggle with getting the last bit of straight edge near the tip (~1/2") sharp. Anyone have any tips?
Same with me. My Salt 2 is my most carried knife these days and although I can sharpen my PE Dragonfly and PE Aqua Salt (both H1) I can't get that chisel PE part of the Salt 2 sharp.
I try to do it with the flat stones of the sharpmaker, gone from diamonds to fine, tried 30 and 40 degrees, nothing seems to work. It's not dull like a butter knife, but it's nowhere near the PE H1 Dragonfly. If I were to judge PE H1 based on that Salt 2's tip I'd never buy a H1 knife in my life.
Maybe I can shoot a video next time I touch up my Pacific Salt, might give you guys some ideas. I usually get that PE part sharp enough to pop arm hairs. Easiest part of the edge to test for shaving sharpness, haha.
Thanks Vivi. In fact it's really strange, I have a Zdp-189 SG Delica that was a beater and was really dull, brought it back to shaving sharpness several times, but that PE portion on the Salt 2... argh
Even tried it free hand on some DMT diamond stones, don't know what's going on. I'll try the sharpie method next time, but from what I see I was touching the apex.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#67

Post by THB »

Really interesting thread - thx for taking the time to share your knowledge. I have also started to enjoy the versatility of a SE blade. It started out with the SE Spyderco kitchen utility knife finding more and more use in the kitchen. Great for bread (no s...), vegetables and cutting roasts with hard surface. It has evolved into buying the Dragonfly 2 in SE for EDC and fishing - waiting for the new Endela in SE. The only downside imho with an SE is for my hunting needs and the occasional whittling.

I have experimenting with both diamond rod sharpening but have settled with the "sharpmaker method" freehand. I too enjoy the resulting more rounded scallops as other have mentioned. Just thinking - If it's a more optimal scallop profile why are they not ground that way from the factory ?
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#68

Post by Wartstein »

THB wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:16 am
.... waiting for the new Endela in SE. The only downside imho with an SE is for my hunting needs and the occasional whittling.

.....

Honestly, in my use SE even in whittling works better than PE, probably due to the chisel grind SE comes in.
Sure I am talking about more "rough" whittling, just quickly removing material to make a pointy stick or some notch.
In fine, very precise whittling PE (and best in chisel grind) will be better than SE though.

/ And please report back how you like the Endela, maybe even in the "Endela thread"...viewtopic.php?t=83925
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#69

Post by The Meat man »

Wartstein wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:50 pm
The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:26 pm
Had a bunch of Amazon points, so I ordered a set of CBN Sharpmaker rods. I'm going to try reprofiling my Pacific Salt and hopefully revitalize it. It's been used hard, and suffered some edge damage.
Connor, I´d really appreciate if you´d report back how the CBN Rods work for you / for reprofiling! Especially concerning serrated edges: Obviously, in that case you can only use the corners of the stones, and I´ve read several times that this is not really recommended, since the corners wear out a lot faster than the flats (which must be true logically). But then I don´t know what the corners would be there for anyway, if one should not really use them... maybe just for touching up harder steels like ZDP, not for reprofiling??

I sure will. I'm just going to have to be very careful not to put pressure on the corners as I sharpen. I'm confident that they will hold up just fine.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#70

Post by Evil D »

The Meat man wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:51 am
Wartstein wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:50 pm
The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:26 pm
Had a bunch of Amazon points, so I ordered a set of CBN Sharpmaker rods. I'm going to try reprofiling my Pacific Salt and hopefully revitalize it. It's been used hard, and suffered some edge damage.
Connor, I´d really appreciate if you´d report back how the CBN Rods work for you / for reprofiling! Especially concerning serrated edges: Obviously, in that case you can only use the corners of the stones, and I´ve read several times that this is not really recommended, since the corners wear out a lot faster than the flats (which must be true logically). But then I don´t know what the corners would be there for anyway, if one should not really use them... maybe just for touching up harder steels like ZDP, not for reprofiling??

I sure will. I'm just going to have to be very careful not to put pressure on the corners as I sharpen. I'm confident that they will hold up just fine.

Wasn't part of the appeal of CBN rods something about the particles not ripping off the rods? I have blank spots on my diamond rods from trying to reprofile an Ulize. You really do need to be gentle and let the grit do the work. Unfortunately it can be time consuming but you shouldn't have to do it often.
All SE all the time since 2017
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#71

Post by The Meat man »

Evil D wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:00 am
The Meat man wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:51 am
Wartstein wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:50 pm
The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:26 pm
Had a bunch of Amazon points, so I ordered a set of CBN Sharpmaker rods. I'm going to try reprofiling my Pacific Salt and hopefully revitalize it. It's been used hard, and suffered some edge damage.
Connor, I´d really appreciate if you´d report back how the CBN Rods work for you / for reprofiling! Especially concerning serrated edges: Obviously, in that case you can only use the corners of the stones, and I´ve read several times that this is not really recommended, since the corners wear out a lot faster than the flats (which must be true logically). But then I don´t know what the corners would be there for anyway, if one should not really use them... maybe just for touching up harder steels like ZDP, not for reprofiling??

I sure will. I'm just going to have to be very careful not to put pressure on the corners as I sharpen. I'm confident that they will hold up just fine.

Wasn't part of the appeal of CBN rods something about the particles not ripping off the rods? I have blank spots on my diamond rods from trying to reprofile an Ulize. You really do need to be gentle and let the grit do the work. Unfortunately it can be time consuming but you shouldn't have to do it often.

Before ordering I looked back in the forum history to see what had been said about CBN versus diamond. At one point Sal seemed to hint that the CBN plating was maybe stronger than the diamond plating, so the CBN wouldn't as readily be torn out as the diamond.

Edit: here's the full quote:
sal wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:34 pm
Hi Tjkoko,

Welcome to our forum.

We've been making diamonds for our Sharpmaker since 1981. Even before we had the medium grit stones, we had diamond sleeves. When we could, we made diamond triangles. The problem with diamonds is that they are attached to a steel embryo using a plating process. The diamonds are very hard. Harder than the steel embryo or the plating material that adheres the diamond to the steel. People using the diamonds to sharpen will generally press too hard, which loosens the diamonds from the plated material so longevity is not as desired. Diamonds work best with a very light touch, as the diamonds are much harder than the blade, it doesn't take much pressure to be effective. Getting customers to do this has been very challenging. Most people think (or simply intuit) that "if I press harder, they will cut faster".

CBN has some advantages over diamonds in cutting steel and it is hard enough to sharpen any steel, I felt that if we made our triangles in CBN as well as diamonds, people could try both and in time we might see a difference or advantage to one or the other.

I use CBN and I also use diamonds, but I use a very light touch and take the time to do a careful job not to damage the diamond / CBN. I believe that the CBN might be competitive in that it cuts as well, and I believe adheres better to the plating. Hope that helps?

sal
viewtopic.php?t=78443
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Wartstein
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#72

Post by Wartstein »

The Meat man wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:04 am
Evil D wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:00 am
The Meat man wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:51 am
Wartstein wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:50 pm

Before ordering I looked back in the forum history to see what had been said about CBN versus diamond. At one point Sal seemed to hint that the CBN plating was maybe stronger than the diamond plating, so the CBN wouldn't as readily be torn out as the diamond.

Edit: here's the full quote:
sal wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:34 pm
Hi Tjkoko,

Welcome to our forum.

We've been making diamonds for our Sharpmaker since 1981. Even before we had the medium grit stones, we had diamond sleeves. When we could, we made diamond triangles. The problem with diamonds is that they are attached to a steel embryo using a plating process. The diamonds are very hard. Harder than the steel embryo or the plating material that adheres the diamond to the steel. People using the diamonds to sharpen will generally press too hard, which loosens the diamonds from the plated material so longevity is not as desired. Diamonds work best with a very light touch, as the diamonds are much harder than the blade, it doesn't take much pressure to be effective. Getting customers to do this has been very challenging. Most people think (or simply intuit) that "if I press harder, they will cut faster".

CBN has some advantages over diamonds in cutting steel and it is hard enough to sharpen any steel, I felt that if we made our triangles in CBN as well as diamonds, people could try both and in time we might see a difference or advantage to one or the other.

I use CBN and I also use diamonds, but I use a very light touch and take the time to do a careful job not to damage the diamond / CBN. I believe that the CBN might be competitive in that it cuts as well, and I believe adheres better to the plating. Hope that helps?

sal
viewtopic.php?t=78443
Thanks Connor, that helps a lot!!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#73

Post by JD Spydo »

Ric wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:07 am
The corners are for the SE.
Even if the stones are "worn out" they are still more aggressive than the brown stones.
Always use no pressure when working with CBN/diamonds.

For a real reprofiling I recommend other system as the sharpmaker...
The corners of the 204 Sharpmaker stones aren't just limited to sharpening SE edges>> they are great for removing nicks, dings and slight deformations from a plain edge. The corners of the 204 Stones are also great for deburring too. All the sharpening, aligning and deburring jobs you can do with 204 Sharpmaker stones are almost too numerous to mention. I've owned my first 204 Sharpmaker since the late 90s and I'm still finding various other uses for that incredible sharpening tool.

Sal's genius in designing sharpening tools is even higher than his "In House" knife designing that I have admired for so many years. Even those discontinued 701 Profiles are a tool I keep finding more and more uses for.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#74

Post by sal »

Hi Evil,

Excellent!

sal
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#75

Post by Evil D »

sal wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:36 am
Hi Evil,

Excellent!

sal

Hey if you happen to find a SE Sliverax laying around let me know :D
All SE all the time since 2017
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#76

Post by fkmtb07 »

Evil D wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:29 pm
fkmtb07 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:14 am
Awesome writeup!

My SE Salt 2 is one of my most carried knives, but I do struggle with getting the last bit of straight edge near the tip (~1/2") sharp. Anyone have any tips?
I position my index finger just behind the end of the PE portion right before the first serration to block accidentally getting the serrations on the flat of the stone and then just sharpen it like anything else. Be careful and make sure you hold it straight up and down at 90 degrees.
This was a helpful hint for keeping the SE portion off the flats of the stone. Thanks! My S2 is now popping hairs with ease on the PE portion!
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#77

Post by T-1000 »

What angle do you guys sharpen your serrations on the sharpmaker with?
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#78

Post by vivi »

15 degrees. Gives me a thinner edge that way.

20 is faster if you simply need the edge sharp and aren't worried about how thin it is.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#79

Post by T-1000 »

Vivi wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:02 pm
15 degrees. Gives me a thinner edge that way.

20 is faster if you simply need the edge sharp and aren't worried about how thin it is.
Thanks 👍
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#80

Post by PeaceInOurTime »

Has anyone had the opportunity to use and compare Spyderco serrations to Veff serrations? For a while now, I've considered grinding my own serrations on a knife and have been intrigued by Veff serrations.

And just to echo what several others have stated, I also prefer the more rounded/shallower serrations. For a while I carried a Native 5 LW CE and I found those serrations just didn't perform very well for my day to day cutting, finding they would snag too much.

On the other hand, my Byrd Rescue 2 and the serrations on my Leatherman multitools have been great performers.
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