SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

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Donut
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#221

Post by Donut »

RustyIron wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:27 pm
Yes, with excellent results. I use 1/4" triangular x 6" long silicon carbide stones, glued to aluminum blanks. Moldmaster stones from Congress Tools are good and they're inexpensive. On the serrated side, maintain the original angle. Keep your motion mostly north/south. If you go too much east/west, you might end up rounding off your serrations more than you want to. On the back side of the blade, I'm lazy. Rather than maintain the flat angle, I'll give it another half a degree, or whatever it takes for the bevel to reach the top of the serrations.
Even on the flats of the Moldmaster silicone carbide, I find that they are on the soft side and you can dig into the stones if you hit the right/wrong angle. I don't know how often you need to flatten them, but how often do you buy those triangle stones?

That's the method I use. I wonder if David uses that method or goes for the V microbevel for longer edge holding over performance.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#222

Post by Donut »

Bill1170 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:13 pm
True, this. However, I recall reading here that the CBN grit stays stuck to the rods better than the diamond grit, and I believe the particles are the same size or very close to it.

Because of that report I chose the CBN rod to reprofile several of my SE knives. The corners still remove metal after doing hours of strokes, so I’m a believer!
That's pretty awesome news, I will probably need to invest in them.

Meat Man,
The nature of the corner versus the flat, even with the same pressure you put more pressure on the corner than you do the flat. That's what I've been taught, possibly by Sal in the Sharpmaker video. :p
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#223

Post by The Meat man »

Donut wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:46 pm
Bill1170 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:13 pm
True, this. However, I recall reading here that the CBN grit stays stuck to the rods better than the diamond grit, and I believe the particles are the same size or very close to it.

Because of that report I chose the CBN rod to reprofile several of my SE knives. The corners still remove metal after doing hours of strokes, so I’m a believer!
That's pretty awesome news, I will probably need to invest in them.

Meat Man,
The nature of the corner versus the flat, even with the same pressure you put more pressure on the corner than you do the flat. That's what I've been taught, possibly by Sal in the Sharpmaker video. :p
Yep, pressure = force / area. Same force on smaller area = higher pressure.
It sounds basic but actually, it's amazing how much pressure there can be if the area is small like a knife edge bevel. One pound of force on the corner of a Sharpmaker rod comes out to around several hundred PSI.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#224

Post by Bill1170 »

The Meat man wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:35 pm
Donut wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:46 pm
Bill1170 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:13 pm
True, this. However, I recall reading here that the CBN grit stays stuck to the rods better than the diamond grit, and I believe the particles are the same size or very close to it.

Because of that report I chose the CBN rod to reprofile several of my SE knives. The corners still remove metal after doing hours of strokes, so I’m a believer!
That's pretty awesome news, I will probably need to invest in them.

Meat Man,
The nature of the corner versus the flat, even with the same pressure you put more pressure on the corner than you do the flat. That's what I've been taught, possibly by Sal in the Sharpmaker video. :p
Yep, pressure = force / area. Same force on smaller area = higher pressure.
It sounds basic but actually, it's amazing how much pressure there can be if the area is small like a knife edge bevel. One pound of force on the corner of a Sharpmaker rod comes out to around several hundred PSI.
Exactly. This is why sharp knives cut best. The smaller the apex, the higher the pressure for a given force. Pressure is what break the bonds holding the material together (the stuff you’re cutting.)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#225

Post by vivi »

This is why it kills me watching cooks and chefs use sharpening steels on chef knives. They're all convinced the harder/faster/flashier you are the better the results. I shake my head so much. 20 years in and out of the industry and a grand total of one person listened to me when I said if you finish with lighter pressure you'll get a superior edge.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#226

Post by RustyIron »

Donut wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:44 pm

Even on the flats of the Moldmaster silicone carbide, I find that they are on the soft side and you can dig into the stones if you hit the right/wrong angle. I don't know how often you need to flatten them, but how often do you buy those triangle stones?
Ummm... I don't really know what you're asking of me. I think they're good for serrated edges. But if you don't like them, that's ok.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#227

Post by RustyIron »

Bill1170 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:06 pm
Exactly. This is why sharp knives cut best. The smaller the apex, the higher the pressure for a given force. Pressure is what break the bonds holding the material together (the stuff you’re cutting.)
That is true, but it's the inverse that is most fascinating to me. We seek to make our edges as sharp as possible, where the width of the apex approaches zero. As the width approaches zero, the area approaches zero, and the pressure in our equation approaches infinity. The better we become at sharpening, the closer we are to a "divide by zero error." We are truly asking miracles from the steel in our knife blades, and we take for granted performance that would have been considered miraculous in our granddads' time.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#228

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I told myself that I'd get out my Native 5 SE and start using the sharpmaker on it to round off the points on the smaller scallops. This thing does have relatively shallow scallops overall. Here is a picture of the sharpie method on the 30 degree slot after a few minutes with the corner of the medium rod. It seems like the bevel is ground to a very low angle. It got me thinking, "Does a FFG SE need to be ground at a lower angle?" Otherwise you wouldn't see the normal bevel shape of the SE on the bevel side of the blade. I also included a shot right at the edge, hopefully that shows part of what I was thinking.

Image

Image
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#229

Post by Bill1170 »

I started reprofiling my saber-ground SE Endura 4 with the CBN rods in the 30 degree slots. It requires much patience and I’m only halfway to the apex now. Because I’m up on the shoulder of the sharpening bevel, there’s very little bumpety-bump going on as I grind away, it’s very peculiar.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#230

Post by elena86 »

Pelagic wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:18 am
Evil D wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:28 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:13 pm
Really cool write up!!

I am in the vast minority it seems, as I have MUCH better performance cutting rope with deeper serrations and pointer teeth. I want the teeth to catch. When they catch more rope, they cut more rope. I look forward to reading the other half is this later when I get off.

Hey I'm one guy and this is just how I see it. I certainly didn't write the book on what's best and what doesn't work, this is just what works for me. I can't honestly say I cut enough rope to know either way, but I can say that "my version" of SE if you wanna call it that is performing better for my day to day uses than the sharp and pointy stuff. I suppose if you really do cut enough rope then that's something to consider. I know a lot of folks look at SE as a specialized edge type that is only suitable for cutting certain things but I really think that's a narrow way to look at it.
I think you're pretty much spot on really, and I've never seen anyone say they prefer the deeper serrations/pointer teeth like I do. Even Sal himself says worn in/rounded off serrations are better. I'm the one just sharing my personal experience since it is so different. And of course I'm essentially ONLY cutting rope with my serrated knives. THICK rope. So my experience is very specific and anecdotal. But it seems to perform like a saw blade. Ever had to use a hack saw on wood in a pinch? It's not the right tool for the job, but boy, there's a big difference between a 24 tooth blade and 32 tooth blade. The 24 can walk through wood (not like a coping saw or bow saw of course) much faster than the 32 tooth blade due to the size of the teeth, while the 32 tooth blade does better with hardened steel. Not the the perfect analogy but I feel it illustrates my thoughts. I know I'm not the only one getting my SE knives extremely sharp, so I guess it's partially the sheer amount of force I put into the draw cuts (sawing, essentially) which causes all the fibers that the teeth catch to cut instantly, allowing me to cut the rope in fewer slices. I always cut rope quickly, partially for practice. If a towing line (or any line) under tension traps someone in the stern corner of the boat or God forbid gets wrapped around them or something (a million different things could happen), I want to be able to cut that line before someone loses a limb. So everything is focused on speed, from grabbing the knife to the last slice.

I am a huge fan of spyderedges and I allways have a SE Spydie on me. You are not alone Pelagic. I like my spyderedges to be as deep and pointy as possible too, so count me in. I had great results with my SS SE Police on fibrous materials but not only. I keep my serrations at peak sharpness and from my experience the deep, pointy, hollow ground spyderedges are the best. Don’t ask me why but mark my words : we really need more high hollow grind SE spydies just like the salt H1 Dragonfly. A XL SE H1 Dragonfly would be the ultimate spydie ... at least for me. I only hope Sal is reading this... and pray :spyder:
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#231

Post by JD Spydo »

vivi wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:15 pm
This is why it kills me watching cooks and chefs use sharpening steels on chef knives. They're all convinced the harder/faster/flashier you are the better the results. I shake my head so much. 20 years in and out of the industry and a grand total of one person listened to me when I said if you finish with lighter pressure you'll get a superior edge.
Vivi I know exactly what you're saying. It wasn't until I went completely through my book and video that both came with my Razor Edge Systems "ULTIMATE KIT". The book in the kit was written by none other than John Juranitch the President of Razor Edge Systems out of Ely Minnesota. Mr. Juranitch totally changed my thinking about the concepts of sharpening and the use of "steels" i.e. Butcher Steels or Sharpening Steels as some people call them.

He was the very first person I ever heard that explained in detail as to why the purpose of the sharpening "steel" is to only re-aligned the edge rather than abrading it like the vast majority of people that work in many the food professions believe. And he only uses extremely hard and polished smooth steels>> he doesn't use any other type. And he stresses only very light uniform strokes.

Once I got my head around that concept I started having much better results in finishing my freshly sharpened edges. He goes into detail in his book about the use of sharpening "steels" in his great book entitled "The Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening" by John Juranitch
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#232

Post by skeeg11 »

Amen to a light touch on a smooth steel. That Gordon Ramsey schtick cracks me up. :rolleyes:
Last edited by skeeg11 on Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#233

Post by RustyIron »

Donut wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:21 am
Here is a picture of the sharpie method on the 30 degree slot after a few minutes with the corner of the medium rod. It seems like the bevel is ground to a very low angle. It got me thinking, "Does a FFG SE need to be ground at a lower angle?"
I like to maintain the original factory angle. From the pictures, I think you're rocking the blade a little. Note the bare metal both at the top and the bottom of the bevel, but the middle still shows ink. Concentrate on maintaining a consistent angle.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#234

Post by The Meat man »

RustyIron wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:48 pm
Donut wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:21 am
Here is a picture of the sharpie method on the 30 degree slot after a few minutes with the corner of the medium rod. It seems like the bevel is ground to a very low angle. It got me thinking, "Does a FFG SE need to be ground at a lower angle?"
I like to maintain the original factory angle. From the pictures, I think you're rocking the blade a little. Note the bare metal both at the top and the bottom of the bevel, but the middle still shows ink. Concentrate on maintaining a consistent angle.
This has happened to me before when sharpening serrated knives. I thought it might be due to the slightly concave grind of the serrations (due to the fact that they're ground on a wheel.) Like a small hollow grind, if you follow me.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#235

Post by Donut »

The Meat man wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:52 pm
RustyIron wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:48 pm
Donut wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:21 am
Here is a picture of the sharpie method on the 30 degree slot after a few minutes with the corner of the medium rod. It seems like the bevel is ground to a very low angle. It got me thinking, "Does a FFG SE need to be ground at a lower angle?"
I like to maintain the original factory angle. From the pictures, I think you're rocking the blade a little. Note the bare metal both at the top and the bottom of the bevel, but the middle still shows ink. Concentrate on maintaining a consistent angle.
This has happened to me before when sharpening serrated knives. I thought it might be due to the slightly concave grind of the serrations (due to the fact that they're ground on a wheel.) Like a small hollow grind, if you follow me.
I think you're right. I looked at the picture and remarked it and retried to hold my angle straight. I'm still getting some removed sharpie at the top. It must be a very small amount thinner than 30 degrees.

What is strange is that I did like 100 or more passes and I never removed the sharpie from the middle of the bevel. The scallops must be hollow ground. I did used to read that they use a wheel to grind the serrations.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#236

Post by Bill1170 »

Donut wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:16 pm
The Meat man wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:52 pm
RustyIron wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:48 pm
Donut wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:21 am
Here is a picture of the sharpie method on the 30 degree slot after a few minutes with the corner of the medium rod. It seems like the bevel is ground to a very low angle. It got me thinking, "Does a FFG SE need to be ground at a lower angle?"
I like to maintain the original factory angle. From the pictures, I think you're rocking the blade a little. Note the bare metal both at the top and the bottom of the bevel, but the middle still shows ink. Concentrate on maintaining a consistent angle.
This has happened to me before when sharpening serrated knives. I thought it might be due to the slightly concave grind of the serrations (due to the fact that they're ground on a wheel.) Like a small hollow grind, if you follow me.
I think you're right. I looked at the picture and remarked it and retried to hold my angle straight. I'm still getting some removed sharpie at the top. It must be a very small amount thinner than 30 degrees.

What is strange is that I did like 100 or more passes and I never removed the sharpie from the middle of the bevel. The scallops must be hollow ground. I did used to read that they use a wheel to grind the serrations.
Sal has told us that the serrations are ground by a profiled wheel, and that the wheel has to be dressed every so many blades. It was a modest number like every 25 or so,
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#237

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Bill1170 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:26 pm
I started reprofiling my saber-ground SE Endura 4 with the CBN rods in the 30 degree slots. It requires much patience and I’m only halfway to the apex now. Because I’m up on the shoulder of the sharpening bevel, there’s very little bumpety-bump going on as I grind away, it’s very peculiar.

Same here with my Pac Salt 1 SE. Funnily, this knife seems to come sometimes in 15 degree from the factory (that´s what Vivi says about his ones), but sometimes (like mine) closer to 20 degrees...

I am not in a hurry, so I just now and then reprofile a bit on the CBN rods, and I am still not there yet.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#238

Post by Bill1170 »

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:16 am
Bill1170 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:26 pm
I started reprofiling my saber-ground SE Endura 4 with the CBN rods in the 30 degree slots. It requires much patience and I’m only halfway to the apex now. Because I’m up on the shoulder of the sharpening bevel, there’s very little bumpety-bump going on as I grind away, it’s very peculiar.

Same here with my Pac Salt 1 SE. Funnily, this knife seems to come sometimes in 15 degree from the factory (that´s what Vivi says about his ones), but sometimes (like mine) closer to 20 degrees...

I am not in a hurry, so I just now and then reprofile a bit on the CBN rods, and I am still not there yet.
Maybe the geometry variability is a side effect of wear on the profiled grinding wheel. The idea being that blades ground right after the wheel is new have one bevel angle (let’s say 15 degrees) but as the wheel wears down that bevel angle creeps up to, say 20 degrees, at which point a fresh wheel is fitted, beginning the cycle anew. This is just speculation on my part.

The observation that there appears to be a hollow grind to Spyderedge serrations would indicate that the grinding wheel is moved straight into the steel, rather than a more complex translation across the steel. This would produce a more noticeable hollow as the diameter of the shaped wheel got smaller with wear.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#239

Post by Salty Dog »

Very interesting thread, thanks to all involved, learning everything I can about serrated edges and sharpening them.
Got a SE leaf Caribbean coming, just received a SE lightweight tenacious and have a Byrd Hawkbill coming.
Tenacious feels great.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#240

Post by Salty Dog »

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:16 am
Bill1170 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:26 pm
I started reprofiling my saber-ground SE Endura 4 with the CBN rods in the 30 degree slots. It requires much patience and I’m only halfway to the apex now. Because I’m up on the shoulder of the sharpening bevel, there’s very little bumpety-bump going on as I grind away, it’s very peculiar.

Same here with my Pac Salt 1 SE. Funnily, this knife seems to come sometimes in 15 degree from the factory (that´s what Vivi says about his ones), but sometimes (like mine) closer to 20 degrees...

I am not in a hurry, so I just now and then reprofile a bit on the CBN rods, and I am still not there yet.
Hey Warty, thanks for being so welcoming and warm when I joined, I appreciate it, you're a credit to this forum, I enjoy and learn plenty from your posts.
Thanks mate
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