SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

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Josh1973
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#281

Post by Josh1973 »

sal wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 9:01 pm
Josh1973 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:13 pm
Great post on serrated edges Evil D. I ruined my first Byrd serrated hawkbill by using a diamond tapered rod.
In My opinion. Tapered rods are very difficult to make work effectively. I tested them and never recommended them.

sal
Thanks for replying Sal. I hope you and the Spyderco team are having a wonderful day.

I will be the first to admit I am as much to blame as I was just learning sharpening basics at the time. And add inexperience with the tapered diamond rod with a course grit is more than likely going to end up with lackluster results.

I mentioned to Evil D that one thing I found through trial and error that has worked well for me is a standard good quality kitchen honing steel.
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Holland
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#282

Post by Holland »

Finally got around to reprofiling my Dragonfly Hawkbill and cutting off the tips of the teeth.

Was more challenging than the Dragonfly salt given the serrations are smaller and closer together.

Pretty happy with how it turned out.

Before:
20210524_182753_copy_3024x1701.jpg
20210524_182803_copy_3024x1701.jpg
20210524_182818_copy_3024x1701.jpg
After:
20210525_103153_copy_3024x1701.jpg
20210525_103208_copy_3024x1701.jpg
20210525_103225_copy_3024x1701.jpg
-Spencer

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Gayle Bradley 2 | Mantra 1 | Watu | Chaparral 1 | Dragonfly 2 Salt SE
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ZrowsN1s
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#283

Post by ZrowsN1s »

Evil D wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 1:57 am
.....
Do you think there's a performance trade off when you round off the tips and make the scallops shallower?

My HBDFLY is very reprofiled, rounded teeth and shallow scallops. It has the kind of EDC cutting ability that I like, no snags, smooth cuts.

My Tasman that I've been carrying is closer to the factory edge. Pointy teeth, deep scallops. I've been working on it with the sharpmaker trying to get it more like my HBDfly. It's not there yet but I'm getting closer.

In using it to break down some costco boxes the other day a thought occurred to me. One of the boxes in particular had reinforced corners quadruple thick cardboard. So thick and glued that something like Police4 wouldn't have sliced through it without binding up. But I had the pointy tooth Tasman, and I was easily able to 'saw' through it.

I started to wonder, if I contine to round off the teeth, and make the scallops shallower, am I going to lose some of that awsome sawing power?
-Matt a.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135 I ❤ The P'KAL :bug-red

"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
"Ghost hunters scope the edge." -sal
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#284

Post by Evil D »

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 9:34 am
Evil D wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 1:57 am
.....
Do you think there's a performance trade off when you round off the tips and make the scallops shallower?

My HBDFLY is very reprofiled, rounded teeth and shallow scallops. It has the kind of EDC cutting ability that I like, no snags, smooth cuts.

My Tasman that I've been carrying is closer to the factory edge. Pointy teeth, deep scallops. I've been working on it with the sharpmaker trying to get it more like my HBDfly. It's not there yet but I'm getting closer.

In using it to break down some costco boxes the other day a thought occurred to me. One of the boxes in particular had reinforced corners quadruple thick cardboard. So thick and glued that something like Police4 wouldn't have sliced through it without binding up. But I had the pointy tooth Tasman, and I was easily able to 'saw' through it.

I started to wonder, if I contine to round off the teeth, and make the scallops shallower, am I going to lose some of that awsome sawing power?



I do think it's a tradeoff to some extent. That sawing motion is still there but will definitely be less aggressive since the sawing (really not at all actually sawing) is really more from the teeth scratching and snagging/ripping their way through stuff. Basically you're using the snagging to your advantage instead of disliking it in other scenarios.

It's a tradeoff to me because 1) I find I have little to no need to saw anything and 2) the serrations slice so much better this way and 3) the serrations still utilize high pressure points to initiate more aggressive cuts and finally 4) serrations almost never actually push cut anything, almost every cut is effectively a slice because there are so many curves in the edge that are continually making lateral cuts in a slicing motion even if you're trying to push cut. The only time you ever truly make a push cut is like with paper if you isolate one single serration and even then you need to be careful to keep the paper right in the center of the serration or you'll end up making a slicing motion once the edge is no longer 90 degrees to the paper.
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ZrowsN1s
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#285

Post by ZrowsN1s »

Evil D wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 12:51 pm
ZrowsN1s wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 9:34 am
Evil D wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 1:57 am
.....
..........
I do think it's a tradeoff to some extent. That sawing motion is still there but will definitely be less aggressive since the sawing (really not at all actually sawing) is really more from the teeth scratching and snagging/ripping their way through stuff. Basically you're using the snagging to your advantage instead of disliking it in other scenarios.

It's a tradeoff to me because 1) I find I have little to no need to saw anything and 2) the serrations slice so much better this way and 3) the serrations still utilize high pressure points to initiate more aggressive cuts and finally 4) serrations almost never actually push cut anything, almost every cut is effectively a slice because there are so many curves in the edge that are continually making lateral cuts in a slicing motion even if you're trying to push cut. The only time you ever truly make a push cut is like with paper if you isolate one single serration and even then you need to be careful to keep the paper right in the center of the serration or you'll end up making a slicing motion once the edge is no longer 90 degrees to the paper.
I think you're right.
I'm going to keep reprofiling my Tasman. It will be interesting to see if it appreciably reduces it's ability to rip through super thick glued cardboard. I don't think it will enough to make me wish I'd kept the serrations pointier, but we'll see.
-Matt a.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135 I ❤ The P'KAL :bug-red

"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
"Ghost hunters scope the edge." -sal
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elena86
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#286

Post by elena86 »

I like my spyderedges to be as pointy and aggressive as possible. I keep them at peak sharpness but a spyderedge MUST be aggressive more than anything. Enough said....
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#287

Post by Rinzler »

I have been using a serrated autonomy 2 and keep running into issues cutting cardboard. The small serrations load up with cardboard and stop me dead in the cut. It’s a new knife with the factory edge so I’m a bit perplexed.
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Holland
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#288

Post by Holland »

Rinzler wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
I have been using a serrated autonomy 2 and keep running into issues cutting cardboard. The small serrations load up with cardboard and stop me dead in the cut. It’s a new knife with the factory edge so I’m a bit perplexed.
I had this issue a lot with my serrated knives. But after reprofiling and cutting the tips of the teeth off, they slice cardboard smoothly.

David has a bunch of great photos on the original post showing the differences.
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skeeg11
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#289

Post by skeeg11 »

Rinzler wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
I have been using a serrated autonomy 2 and keep running into issues cutting cardboard. The small serrations load up with cardboard and stop me dead in the cut. It’s a new knife with the factory edge so I’m a bit perplexed.
You raise a valid point. Selecting the best geometry for a blade is dependent upon what you intend to cut. Some prefer sabre grinds for sturdiness in their serrated blades, and other prefer FFG for sliceiness, but IMHO, not enough has been said or discussed regarding serration patterns. Don't get me wrong, I love Spyderco serrated folders and hold them in high regard. I think they are the defacto standard of excellence when it comes to serrated folders. They have done more for the cause than any other knife company when it comes to serrated knives. Their distinctive signature pattern of two small scallops between two larger scallops is no doubt a great all purpose design for most people. Still, there is the occasional outlier such as myself who prefer a different serration pattern to address their needs. To be perfectly honest, for my needs and what I do, a serration pattern of all large scallops of around 3/16" work better. That being said, I shall continue to purchase serrated Spyderco folders (and the upcoming serrated Swick fixed).
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#290

Post by Bill1170 »

skeeg11 wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:27 pm
Rinzler wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:44 pm
I have been using a serrated autonomy 2 and keep running into issues cutting cardboard. The small serrations load up with cardboard and stop me dead in the cut. It’s a new knife with the factory edge so I’m a bit perplexed.
You raise a valid point. Selecting the best geometry for a blade is dependent upon what you intend to cut. Some prefer sabre grinds for sturdiness in their serrated blades, and other prefer FFG for sliceiness, but IMHO, not enough has been said or discussed regarding serration patterns. Don't get me wrong, I love Spyderco serrated folders and hold them in high regard. I think they are the defacto standard of excellence when it comes to serrated folders. They have done more for the cause than any other knife company when it comes to serrated knives. Their distinctive signature pattern of two small scallops between two larger scallops is no doubt a great all purpose design for most people. Still, there is the occasional outlier such as myself who prefer a different serration pattern to address their needs. To be perfectly honest, for my needs and what I do, a serration pattern of all large scallops of around 3/16" work better. That being said, I shall continue to purchase serrated Spyderco folders (and the upcoming serrated Swick fixed).
There is certainly room for variation in serration patterns. Spyderco themselves offer a different serration pattern on some of their kitchen knives, by which I mean different from what comes on the folders.

I have an older Forchner (a brand bought by Victorinox) serrated bread knife that I use in my workshop. It has a long, thin blade with all large scallops around 7-8mm wide with wavy points, and a rounded tip. It is ideal for getting between a flat surface and something flexible adhered to that surface and cutting away at the glue line between the two. The blade stock is so thin, in fact, that it proved sub-optimal for slicing bread because the blade is too whippy to resist steering in the cut. I relegated it to shop use and got a Victorinox bread knife with a wider and slightly stiffer blade for cutting food.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#291

Post by skeeg11 »

Bill1170 wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:47 am

There is certainly room for variation in serration patterns. Spyderco themselves offer a different serration pattern on some of their kitchen knives, by which I mean different from what comes on the folders.

I have an older Forchner (a brand bought by Victorinox) serrated bread knife that I use in my workshop. It has a long, thin blade with all large scallops around 7-8mm wide with wavy points, and a rounded tip. It is ideal for getting between a flat surface and something flexible adhered to that surface and cutting away at the glue line between the two. The blade stock is so thin, in fact, that it proved sub-optimal for slicing bread because the blade is too whippy to resist steering in the cut. I relegated it to shop use and got a Victorinox bread knife with a wider and slightly stiffer blade for cutting food.
Bread knives are a prime example of size/pattern of serrations matter. Larger scallops do better than small scallops. Small scallops leave a lot of bread crumbs on the cutting board.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#292

Post by cabfrank »

Speaking of bread crumbs, lately I've been cutting bread and tomatoes (love summer BLT's) with my Jumpmaster 2. It is exceptional at both.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#293

Post by Bill1170 »

I decided to reprofile my SE Endela to 15 degrees on the scallops. I’m using the CBN rods, same ones I used to reprofile my saber-ground SE Endura. I’m almost to the apex everywhere, just missing a tiny bit in the three large scallops closest to the handle.

Unlike the Endura, the serration pattern on the FFG Endela still looks good. The bevel is about twice as tall as factory, whereas the bevel on the SG Endura got to be 3 times as tall as factory by the time I reached the apex, and the serrations became extremely wavy and poorly defined on the thicker Endura blade.

When first starting out reprofiling a Spyderedge to a more acute bevel angle, progress comes rapidly because you’re just grinding away the shoulder line where the tops of the serrations meet the primary bevel. As work proceeds, progress becomes increasingly slow because the band of steel being removed grows steadily wider. Towards the end it takes hundreds of strokes to eliminate a 0.3 mm area near the apex that’s still at the ~20 degrees factory grind. My unaided eye can’t even see if I’m at the apex, even with Sharpie marking, so I try to push cut paper in the big scallops. Apexed scallops do it easily. Ones that won’t push cut require more grinding. I’m very close now, and am wondering if I’ll keep the “hungry” coarse finish off the CBN rods or if I’ll refine it with the ceramic rods.
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#294

Post by Evil D »

Bill1170 wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:01 pm
I decided to reprofile my SE Endela to 15 degrees on the scallops. I’m using the CBN rods, same ones I used to reprofile my saber-ground SE Endura. I’m almost to the apex everywhere, just missing a tiny bit in the three large scallops closest to the handle.

Unlike the Endura, the serration pattern on the FFG Endela still looks good. The bevel is about twice as tall as factory, whereas the bevel on the SG Endura got to be 3 times as tall as factory by the time I reached the apex, and the serrations became extremely wavy and poorly defined on the thicker Endura blade.

When first starting out reprofiling a Spyderedge to a more acute bevel angle, progress comes rapidly because you’re just grinding away the shoulder line where the tops of the serrations meet the primary bevel. As work proceeds, progress becomes increasingly slow because the band of steel being removed grows steadily wider. Towards the end it takes hundreds of strokes to eliminate a 0.3 mm area near the apex that’s still at the ~20 degrees factory grind. My unaided eye can’t even see if I’m at the apex, even with Sharpie marking, so I try to push cut paper in the big scallops. Apexed scallops do it easily. Ones that won’t push cut require more grinding. I’m very close now, and am wondering if I’ll keep the “hungry” coarse finish off the CBN rods or if I’ll refine it with the ceramic rods.


That last little fraction of bevel is always the most tedious part, I have my Caribbean and Autonomy sitting on my desk right now because I've had to move on to other stuff before making it all the way. The good news is this process doesn't need done very often, especially if you make it a routine to go back to the 30 slots and remove any micro bevel you develop through touch ups. I'm admittedly really bad with this and my micro bevels end up anything but "micro", so I end up with all my knives needing reprofiled after a while. I need to just make it a routine to drop back to the 30s maybe every other sharpening so I'm never spending too much time with it.


It's sort of a fun problem to have for me because it does force me to change up my EDC, which is another thing I'm terrible at doing. Lately I've been using my rhinoplasty Stretch a lot and it's actually very refreshing. Lately I've sort of been in a slump with the hobby and I think maybe part of that is because I tend to stick with the same knife for long periods.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#295

Post by Bigswede »

Hi guys,

New to the forum here.

I am a big fan of the Tenacious, I have had several, and my favourite for my EDC is a combo edge. I also have a few normal edge ones, including one I dressed up in desert ironwood scales to make a gentleman’s beater. When I wear it out, I just move the scales to a new knife and it doesn’t break the bank.

However, my blacked out Tenacious died last week, I torqued it to death and was left with a knife in pieces in my hand and a bit of a cut. Now I am looking for a replacement, and I was wondering how the SE works on a saber grind compared to a FFG.

And while I am at it, is the Endurance a good step up from the Tenacious? I have had problems with the steel on one of my Tenacious knives, almost impossible to sharpen, whilst some others were easy, was thinking the VG10 might be more reliable?

Thanks all
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#296

Post by Bigswede »

So my five cents on serrated edges….

It makes it easier to cut things like string or rope without it being taut. This is good for one handed work, when your other hand might be otherwise occupied. This is something I have experienced a lot as a deep sea diver, inside wrecks, sometimes getting tangled in all sort of weird stuff that ends up inside (often fishing line, sometimes some other divers safety line). So my harness knife was always serrated, and saw plenty of use.

I never had a serrated pocket knife before I bought my first Tenacious combo edge about 10 or so years ago. I wasn’t convinced I would like it, but figured I would give it a go. I didn’t think about it much, but I used it a lot. Then I bought another, plain edge, tenacious, and didn’t like it at all. I am not really a knife guy, I just use them a lot without thinking about it much, so it took me a while to figure it out. I missed the serrations. I had grown as accustomed to them as I had on my dive knives, that I simply couldn’t go back to plain edge.
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#297

Post by Evil D »

Bigswede wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:57 pm
Hi guys,

New to the forum here.

I am a big fan of the Tenacious, I have had several, and my favourite for my EDC is a combo edge. I also have a few normal edge ones, including one I dressed up in desert ironwood scales to make a gentleman’s beater. When I wear it out, I just move the scales to a new knife and it doesn’t break the bank.

However, my blacked out Tenacious died last week, I torqued it to death and was left with a knife in pieces in my hand and a bit of a cut. Now I am looking for a replacement, and I was wondering how the SE works on a saber grind compared to a FFG.

And while I am at it, is the Endurance a good step up from the Tenacious? I have had problems with the steel on one of my Tenacious knives, almost impossible to sharpen, whilst some others were easy, was thinking the VG10 might be more reliable?

Thanks all


First things first we need to figure out what made your Tenacious difficult to sharpen, because the steel it uses is definitely one of the easier ones to sharpen. I suspect you may not have been hitting the apex when sharpening? Sometimes if you're not getting on the very edge it can seem like you're sharpening forever but not making any progress.

As for how serrations work in saber vs flat grind, the same rules apply as with plain edge... If blade grind geometry makes a knife slice better in plain edge, the same will be true with serrations so if you liked how your Tenacious cut, you might be less excited about how an Endura cuts. Saber grinds tend to be thicker and the serrations themselves are usually much thicker ground and it can be more difficult to reprofile the serrations because of this. Personally I prefer FFG.

The steel that your Tenacious used also may not have been the direct reason your knife apparently broke? What were you doing when that happened? Depending on the use you may have broke any folder, or to say the least there's no guarantee the Endura could withstand whatever broke a Tenacious. They're durable knives but also within reason.
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Bigswede
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#298

Post by Bigswede »

Yeah, i was also surprised, it was super hard to sharpen. My others are super easy. And I use the same system. I used to use the sharpmaker, but have since moved on to stropping. Works on all my other knives, just not this particular one.

No folder could be expected to withstand what I did to it, it was an emergency and I sacrificed it, basically. It wasn’t the blade that broke, it was the handle that warped and came apart. But I have done rough stuff with it previously, and it has held up beyond what could be expected. What I did this time was, I thought, less harsh. But maybe it just got tired.

I really like scandi, and convex. All my fixed boxes are one of these two. I had a FFG when I needed it for pure self defence, but it wasn’t useful for anything else so when I moved to a safer country, I sold it and got back to scandi and convex.

I know that a folder can’t be expected to do what a fixed blade does, but I figured a scandi/saber folder is a step closer.
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#299

Post by Evil D »

Bigswede wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:59 am

I know that a folder can’t be expected to do what a fixed blade does, but I figured a scandi/saber folder is a step closer.


In a folder the blade grind will have much less impact on overall strength than with a fixed blade because the pivot and lock will almost always be weaker than the blade itself. So, knowing that the blade didn't break on your Tenacious proves that FFG is fully capable of handling even the abuse you put the knife through, so instead of focusing on blade grinds you need to look at pivot and lock strength.
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

#300

Post by Bigswede »

Thanks for the input. So which has the stronger lock and pivot, the endura or the tenacious? Or is there another one that is better, with scandi/saber?

I am a big fan of scandi and saber, so my next folder will be one of those (I still have a couple of tenacious left)
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