SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

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Bill1170
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Bill1170 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:38 am

It feels to me like the Spyderedge is waking from a long slumber in obscurity, starting with a small group of performance enthusiasts here on this forum, and spreading outward from there.

It may have taken this long to grow a “quorum” of users who are sufficiently knowledgeable about knife technologies to support the conversation occurring here on this and other threads. Sal may have felt like a voice crying in the wilderness with regard to serrations for many of the 38 years since the first Spyderedge model was sold.

For many years the conversation about serrations was framed one-dimensionally as “PE vs SE.” Exploring the differences between subtle aspects of SE geometry is a more recent phenomenon only made possible by greater education as provided here on this forum (and to a lesser extent on other online forums).

We owe much to Evil D for supplying those “special glasses” Sal mentions. His unflagging enthusiasm for, and commitment to using serrated folders has propelled the conversation to places it really needed to go.

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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby 40mm » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:56 am

This thread has inspired me to go back to maybe my all time favorite knife. I carried a serrated D'fly Salt as my only pocket knife for quite a while and was very happy with it so think it's time to go back. Does anyone know where I can find one with the "old" uncoated hardware? I prefer the look over the newer black coated stuff. I picked up a Pac Salt SE in yellow and it's a stout beast, but the D'fly always did everything I needed in a much smaller package.

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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby James Y » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:04 am

Bill1170 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:38 am
It feels to me like the Spyderedge is waking from a long slumber in obscurity, starting with a small group of performance enthusiasts here on this forum, and spreading outward from there.

It may have taken this long to grow a “quorum” of users who are sufficiently knowledgeable about knife technologies to support the conversation occurring here on this and other threads. Sal may have felt like a voice crying in the wilderness with regard to serrations for many of the 38 years since the first Spyderedge model was sold.

For many years the conversation about serrations was framed one-dimensionally as “PE vs SE.” Exploring the differences between subtle aspects of SE geometry is a more recent phenomenon only made possible by greater education as provided here on this forum (and to a lesser extent on other online forums).

We owe much to Evil D for supplying those “special glasses” Sal mentions. His unflagging enthusiasm for, and commitment to using serrated folders has propelled the conversation to places it really needed to go.

Good points, Bill.

There are also many people who are somewhat ‘prejudiced’ against serrations. Whether it’s because “The only knives that should have serrations are bread knives”; or “My toothy plain edges can do everything a serrated edge can”; or “Serrations are impossible to resharpen, and they get worse over time more than plain edges do”; and “Serrations are for people who don’t know how to resharpen their knives.” Etc., etc.

I don’t know if this forum is a reflection of knife buyers/users in general, but I’m hoping that the relative “hibernation” of the SE experiences a new “Springtime.” :)

Oh, yes, and with more of the smoother, less “spiky” serrations.

Jim

40mm
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby 40mm » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:42 pm

Was able to find a D'fly Salt SE with non coated hardware! Woo hoo! It'll be good to get one in the hands again. Great thread and thanks a bunch Evil D!
40mm wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:56 am
This thread has inspired me to go back to maybe my all time favorite knife. I carried a serrated D'fly Salt as my only pocket knife for quite a while and was very happy with it so think it's time to go back. Does anyone know where I can find one with the "old" uncoated hardware? I prefer the look over the newer black coated stuff. I picked up a Pac Salt SE in yellow and it's a stout beast, but the D'fly always did everything I needed in a much smaller package.
Last edited by 40mm on Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

40mm
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby 40mm » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:04 pm

Can anyone tell me the difference performance wise between a D'fly in serrated VG10 vs H1? Started thinking that I typically dye my H1 salts black and I've never had a rust issue even with a Aus8 blade when worn in waistband running, mountain biking, soaked in sweat, so I'm not sure why my mind has always gone to H1 over serrated VG10.

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Wartstein
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Wartstein » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:11 pm

40mm wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:04 pm
Can anyone tell me the difference performance wise between a D'fly in serrated VG10 vs H1? Started thinking that I typically dye my H1 salts black and I've never had a rust issue even with a Aus8 blade when worn in waistband running, mountain biking, soaked in sweat, so I'm not sure why my mind has always gone to H1 over serrated VG10.

I can´t speak to the difference concerning particularly the DFly (don´t have either the VG10 SE or the H1 SE), but in general:

- The H1 is in sabre hollow grind, the VG10 in ffg. That of course would make a difference anyway (regardless if in SE or PE). But just judging from my Endela SE (ffg) and Pac Salt SE (sabre hollow), the ffg model has less aggressive and shallower serrations (which is a good thing in my book).
Just looking at pics of the DFly, I think it will be the same there (ffg SE less aggressive and shallower than sabre hollow SE).
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby 40mm » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:26 pm

TO my eyes the serrations look pretty similar between the two but I hear what you're saying about FFG vs hollow grind. How far off is the VG10 in the edge holding department when up against SE H1?
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:11 pm
40mm wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:04 pm
Can anyone tell me the difference performance wise between a D'fly in serrated VG10 vs H1? Started thinking that I typically dye my H1 salts black and I've never had a rust issue even with a Aus8 blade when worn in waistband running, mountain biking, soaked in sweat, so I'm not sure why my mind has always gone to H1 over serrated VG10.

I can´t speak to the difference concerning particularly the DFly (don´t have either the VG10 SE or the H1 SE), but in general:

- The H1 is in sabre hollow grind, the VG10 in ffg. That of course would make a difference anyway (regardless if in SE or PE). But just judging from my Endela SE (ffg) and Pac Salt SE (sabre hollow), the ffg model has less aggressive and shallower serrations (which is a good thing in my book).
Just looking at pics of the DFly, I think it will be the same there (ffg SE less aggressive and shallower than sabre hollow SE).

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dj moonbat
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby dj moonbat » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:29 pm

I just did a minor tooth sculpting on my new Rockjumper, and yeah, the difference in snags was immediate and significant.

I think this is the first Spyderco I’ve ever bought that I actually improved with my first sharpening. Not that I made it sharper; but it’s similarly sharp and cuts more easily.

Thanks for the tips, D.

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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Holland » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:02 pm

I've never reprofiled serrations... if I wanted to make the serrations less deep / more shallow, would I just use the sharpmaker at 30 degrees and go? Or would 40 degrees cut the tips off faster?

I want my dfly salt to be similar to my dfly salt hawkbill
20201013_140118_copy_3024x1701.jpg
-Spencer

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Junction | Gayle Bradley 1 & 2 | Mantra 1 | Chaparral 1 | Delica 4 | Dragonfly 2

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attila
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby attila » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:27 pm

Holland wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:02 pm
I've never reprofiled serrations... if I wanted to make the serrations less deep / more shallow, would I just use the sharpmaker at 30 degrees and go? Or would 40 degrees cut the tips off faster?

I want my dfly salt to be similar to my dfly salt hawkbill

Image
I’m no expert at serrations, but the 40° setting would certainly apex the points quicker, but it’ll leave a more obtuse edge.

When I was working my Pacific Salt, the other day, I just matched the factory angle (free-hand, but looked like 20°-25°).

It took at least a 200 (maybe as many as 300) strokes per side on the corner of the Double Stuff 2 CBN plate, and it’s still only mostly finished. The corner of the DS2 also seems to have lost all of its grit despite me using light pressure. Not sure what that’s all about. :confused:


I like your use for those Judo Points, by the way! Hahaha
Own: Delica, yOld S30V Native, pointy Breeden Rescue, Delica, HAP40 Endura, ZDP DF2, S110V Manix LW,Pakka Delica, Cru-wear Para 3, SE H1 DF2, M4 Manix, HAP40 Caly 3, S90V Native 5, K390 Urban, Pakka DF2, Cruwear PM2, SE Pac Salt, HAP40 Jazzlica, S110V Native, P.I.T.S., DLC Manix, REX 45 PM2, Para 3, XHP Manix LW, SB Caly 3, 20CV PM2, Rhino, SB Calypso Jr., B70P, PMA11, K03, ZDP Stretch 2, Kapara, REX 45 Military, 154CM Manix LW, 204p PM2, Swick, SG Delica, BL Lil'Native, AEB-L Urban, HAP40 Stretch, KC Cruwear Manix,Cruwear Military, M390 PM2, Cruwear Delica, 4V Lil'Native, Mantra 2, CruCarta Shaman, M390 Para 3 LW, M390 Manix, K390 Police 4, RexWood Shaman, DLC Cruwear Shaman, Rex 45 Manix, Native 5, Native LW, 204p Para 3, S45VN PM2, S90V Manix LW, 20CV Manix, Rex 45 Lil’Native, Shaman, C208GP Cruwear Manix

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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Evil D » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:43 pm

Holland wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:02 pm
I've never reprofiled serrations... if I wanted to make the serrations less deep / more shallow, would I just use the sharpmaker at 30 degrees and go? Or would 40 degrees cut the tips off faster?

I want my dfly salt to be similar to my dfly salt hawkbill

20201013_140118_copy_3024x1701.jpg


Same idea with PE, you want to color with Sharpie and see which setting will totally reprofile the bevel. 40 is most likely going to micro bevel so you'll probably need to use the 30 slots to thin it out. I haven't tried doing this with either of my hawkbills but the regular Salt Dfly did take quite a lot of work for how small the blade is. It's the same with any reprofile job, the closer you get to bringing the whole bevel down to your desired angle, the wider the bevel gets and the more steel you're removing with each pass, so it'll progress faster in the beginning as you're just grinding off the shoulder of the bevel, but as you get closer to the very edge it starts to take more passes to get it fully reprofiled.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Evil D » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:54 pm

dj moonbat wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:29 pm
I just did a minor tooth sculpting on my new Rockjumper, and yeah, the difference in snags was immediate and significant.

I think this is the first Spyderco I’ve ever bought that I actually improved with my first sharpening. Not that I made it sharper; but it’s similarly sharp and cuts more easily.

Thanks for the tips, D.


I did mine today too (not a full reprofile, just touched it up). For me it always seems worse when I first start sharpening a brand new knife, those first few passes seem to make the edge way worse until I progress up through the white and ultra fine rods. I started out today just trying to touch up the edge on the ultra fine rods and it immediately seemed to make the edge more dull than more sharp. I think with these thin chisel grinds there's a sort of breaking in period if you're micro beveling, where you need to establish the edge angle and for me once I do that brown/white/ultra fine progression that's when I start to see my sharpest edges and from that point on sharpening gets much easier and more consistent.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Evil D » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:01 pm

I got a package today in a bubble envelope. I pulled out my Rock Jumper expecting to slice it open but...not so much. This is the difference between sharp teeth and rounder teeth:

Image



Let me tell ya, that RJ is screaming sharp. It will pluck hair off my arm without touching skin and push cut phone book paper no problem, so this isn't a sharpness issue, at least not sharpness of the actual edges. I have touched up the edge on my RJ but only a micro bevel at 40 inclusive. I plan on reprofiling it soon and we'll see how it does.

What really sucks is thinking about this sort of experience being a person's first time using SE. I can see how it would be a major turnoff. I hate telling people you have to reprofile them to make them perform better because not everyone is willing to put in that kind of work when their PE knife cuts it just fine without snagging.

I'll have to cut some more stuff with this RJ before I reprofile it and see how it handles other materials.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby vivi » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:08 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:01 pm
I got a package today in a bubble envelope. I pulled out my Rock Jumper expecting to slice it open but...not so much. This is the difference between sharp teeth and rounder teeth:

Image



Let me tell ya, that RJ is screaming sharp. It will pluck hair off my arm without touching skin and push cut phone book paper no problem, so this isn't a sharpness issue, at least not sharpness of the actual edges. I have touched up the edge on my RJ but only a micro bevel at 40 inclusive. I plan on reprofiling it soon and we'll see how it does.

What really sucks is thinking about this sort of experience being a person's first time using SE. I can see how it would be a major turnoff. I hate telling people you have to reprofile them to make them perform better because not everyone is willing to put in that kind of work when their PE knife cuts it just fine without snagging.

I'll have to cut some more stuff with this RJ before I reprofile it and see how it handles other materials.
Can the RJ push cut that? My Pacific 2 can push cut those onceI start the cut with a tiny slicingmovement.
Current carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 LC200N | Manix XL M4 DLC | Aqua Salt

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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Evil D » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:16 pm

vivi wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:08 pm

Can the RJ push cut that? My Pacific 2 can push cut those onceI start the cut with a tiny slicingmovement.



It does once I initiate the cut, as you said with a little slicing motion and then it'll push through significantly cleaner than when trying to slice through, and that just shows the issue is with the points and not the scallops. When slicing you have all those teeth poking and snagging but in a push cut the material spends more time locked into a couple of the same scallops.


You can see on the left it was a little rough until it started push cutting and then it was smooth sailing.
Image
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby zhyla » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:16 pm

Hmm. And did the Caribbean come with more rounded teeth? Or did you sharpen them that way?

I wonder if it’s time to switch to CNCing serrations instead of using grinding wheels. Probably cheaper in the long run you would think.

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Evil D
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby Evil D » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm

zhyla wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:16 pm
Hmm. And did the Caribbean come with more rounded teeth? Or did you sharpen them that way?

I wonder if it’s time to switch to CNCing serrations instead of using grinding wheels. Probably cheaper in the long run you would think.



Both came rounder and it's been reprofiled more so definitely not a fair comparison knife vs knife, just an example of edge differences.


I think if a robot can grind the edge bevel on PE it could be programmed to grind SE. Maybe this is finally the answer to getting a full SE recurve.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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sal
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby sal » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:09 pm

Hi David,

I really appreciate the time, effort and understanding in the performance of Spyder edges tat you have shown. I spent a great deal of thought time in the world of "teeth" and I know what the path is to reach your level of understanding. Thanx for presenting such a valuable explanation. I'm going to try to see if I can refine the factory teeth using your exceptional thread to present my point of view. Thanx for the comparison pics.

You have no idea how hard it was to convince our makers in Seki to make thin serrated edges. Multi generational knife makers in the renowned city of historical sword makers are hard pressed to convince them that you want to do something outside fo their historical point of view. But I must say that their cooperation and opened minds gave us what we have today. A partnership like that is very valuable and hard to achieve.

sal

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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby bbturbodad » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:32 pm

I reprofiled my RJ on the Sharpmaker using the 30° setting with the CBN rods. Much less snaggy now but still not as slicey as my Delica.

Image
Image
Image
-Turbo

vivi
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Re: SE performance is more than simply teeth vs no teeth.

Postby vivi » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:38 am

Looks like a very clean bevel. Makes me want to give my Pacific 2 a similar treatment.
Current carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 LC200N | Manix XL M4 DLC | Aqua Salt


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