Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

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aaronkb
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Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby aaronkb » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:20 am

Hi Sal,

With the first two mantra models being discontinued, I was wondering if you had any plans for a new one. I just picked up a Mantra 2 on sale and absolutely love it, and had some thoughts...

-the whole design and shape is incredible for a variety of reasons, I’d love to see an update on it with the same basic pattern. The blade is super sleek and incredibly practical, especially with the sudden drop at the tip. The wire clip is amazing. The knife carries like it’s barely in your pocket, and still feels great in the hand. I can’t say enough about it.
-I think a lot of spyderco fans preferred the original M4 models over the s30v of the Mantra 3. I’d love to see the next one come in another of the really exciting and well-loved steels you work with, like cruwear or more M4.
-I know this is divisive, I’m personally not a fan of the peel-ply carbon fiber but the carbon fiber you used on the Kapara looks stunning in every picture I’ve seen. It would be amazing to get something like the Mantra 2 with the same frame lock as the original but with solid carbon fiber on the show side. I’m practically drooling thinking about it!

Do you have any thoughts on or plans for a new mantra? Also any other community members/spydie fans reading this, I’m curious about your thoughts as well.

Aaron

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby GarageBoy » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:45 pm

The mantra 2 blade is (to me) almost kinda Phil Wilson-ish

A lot of people didn't like how awkward the grind was on the mantra 3 (the almost recurve, which I think was there to clear the compression lock release)

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby Deadboxhero » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:04 pm

I've had my Mantra 2 for 2 years now. I enjoy the design, high end Delica with M4? What's not to love? The action was what really hurt the model. It was released at the full height of ZT glory when they had unleashed the zt450 which was killing everthing with it's snappy crisp flipping action thanks to the bearing and detent design at a lower price.

The mantra just didn't have that sexy action.

was looking forward to the Mantra 3 as a CQI to the Tin foil washers that deform and make the action "bumpy" and bearing system in the Mantra 2 as well as stronger detent for a better, snapy smooth flip.

I was bummed that the M4 was traded for S30v.
Also that they left the Delica size for a slightly bigger size.

The recurve wasn't to my liking either.
They ground the mantra 1 and 2 better back by the plunge.
Hopefully we just get a Mantra 2 CQI with improved washer bearings and detent. May spice it up with Cruwear for those that complained about the M4 being to rusty.
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby TomAiello » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:11 pm

The action is definitely a weakness. I just haven't found any flippers that can compete with ZT. I honestly think that maybe Spyderco should focus on their core design principles (ergonomics) and leave the pocket jewelry to ZT.

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby JuPaul » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:20 pm

I have the first Mantra, and love it. A flipping titanium delica?? Yes! And I just got the Mantra 2 on clearance, carried it yesterday for the first time, and so far I love it, too. Yeah, with a weak flip neither will deploy all the way, but I'm still happy with the actions on both. I've haven't bought a mantra 3 because of the recurved blade (would be harder to sharpen on my system) and the different handle design. For a mantra 4, I'd love a return to the original design with g10 scales. Cruwear, m4, s30v, all would sell me.
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby anycal » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:13 pm

This thing is gritty like it's riding on gravel ball bearings. The grittiness is pretty subtle, but is there. Despite that, the action is surprisingly good, still in rotation on regular basis.

I love the design and the materials used on the original Mantra. Titanium frame lock with steel insert, M4, wire clip. I'd take it even without the flipper. Honestly, I probably open it more using the hole.

Still searching to replace the pivot bearing with couple of thicker washers. I think that would work just fine.

I was looking forward to the Mantra 3, but it did not do it for me.

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby koenigsegg » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 pm

I've had a few of their flippers with not the best out of box action. Usually smooths out though. I assume there are at least 3 things this could be. Pivot too tight from factory, tho not the case when it's gritty it's likely debris left from machining them or too much loctite that hardened in the bearing race
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby Deadboxhero » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:53 pm

koenigsegg wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 pm
I've had a few of their flippers with not the best out of box action. Usually smooths out though. I assume there are at least 3 things this could be. Pivot too tight from factory, tho not the case when it's gritty it's likely debris left from machining them or too much loctite that hardened in the bearing race
They have made improvements since but back when the advocate and the mantra were released the problem was the thin flimsy metal washer design they added to the bearing washer that deformed over time making the action "bumpy" also the weaker detent that keeps you from building pressure so that the knife pops and locks like a champ.

So it's not a break in issue. I've had mine for over two years now.

For the next one I'd like to see a bigger detent ball and nothing added to the bearing washer.
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby koenigsegg » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:58 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:53 pm
koenigsegg wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 pm
I've had a few of their flippers with not the best out of box action. Usually smooths out though. I assume there are at least 3 things this could be. Pivot too tight from factory, tho not the case when it's gritty it's likely debris left from machining them or too much loctite that hardened in the bearing race
They have made improvements since but back when the advocate and the mantra were released the problem was the thin flimsy metal washer design they added to the bearing washer that deformed over time making the action "bumpy" also the weaker detent that keeps you from building pressure so that the knife pops and locks like a champ.

So it's not a break in issue. I've had mine for over two years now.
I've had two dominos, two dice, southward, advocate, positron, mantra, sliverax, and ikuchi and they've all had different action. One Domino is amazing and probably representative of how this pivot is supposed to work . Then I've had ones like the dice who never break in. Im not saying this is the same for everyone or every knife I was listing the issues I've seen myself.
S30V, VG10, M4, XHP, BD1, Maxamet, 204P, H1, K390, A11, Rex45, LC200N, M390

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby Tdog » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:58 pm

I bought both Mantra's when they first came out. As produced imo the Mantra is a great knife (improved Delica if that's possible). :rolleyes: Back then I was calling and hoping for a Mantra 2XL. The additional blade/edge length (prox 4")and it's mass would greatly improve the flipping action. With LC, the XL Mantra 2 could easily be made a "salt series". Keep the ti and do away with the bearings. I would buy this immediately.

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby koenigsegg » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:03 pm

My red Domino took some break in and tons of cleaning. The mantra was decent but now flips great. The positron flipped great. Both the dice took break in and the second one still isn't amazing. Southard took some breaking in now flips great. Advocate was factory second and loosening it a bit it has pretty good action now but I can hear a bearing rattle back and forth when closed
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby Deadboxhero » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:12 pm

koenigsegg wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:58 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:53 pm
koenigsegg wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:29 pm
I've had a few of their flippers with not the best out of box action. Usually smooths out though. I assume there are at least 3 things this could be. Pivot too tight from factory, tho not the case when it's gritty it's likely debris left from machining them or too much loctite that hardened in the bearing race
They have made improvements since but back when the advocate and the mantra were released the problem was the thin flimsy metal washer design they added to the bearing washer that deformed over time making the action "bumpy" also the weaker detent that keeps you from building pressure so that the knife pops and locks like a champ.

So it's not a break in issue. I've had mine for over two years now.
I've had two dominos, two dice, southward, advocate, positron, mantra, sliverax, and ikuchi and they've all had different action. One Domino is amazing and probably representative of how this pivot is supposed to work . Then I've had ones like the dice who never break in. Im not saying this is the same for everyone or every knife I was listing the issues I've seen myself.
I'm not a ZT fan, but they definitely set the bar with flipper action and have been resting on there laurels ever since they peaked with the zt 0450.

I haven't had a spyderco match that action. I felt it was due to adding extra metal washers and a smaller detent.

There are even fancier flippers from mid tech companies and overseas Compaines.

To be honest that's not why I buy a spyderco, I just like the designs with the nice steels and grinds and how they fit my hands nicely.

But if Spyderco wants to get into that action I feel there is room for improvement.

My mantra is not going to break in and get better.

The washers are deformed, not form over tightening, just use. Even if I could get new washers it would just happen again.

I sold the zt0450 because it's not just about the action of a knife.

But I'd like to have my Mantra 2 with a better action or just drop the bearings and the flipper and just be what spyderco normally does.

It would be nice if the mantra 4 was just a nested liner lock g10 design, no flipper, bronze washers and Cruwear
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby GarageBoy » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:17 pm

Funny the zt0450 was brought up - I was considering it as a mantra 2 alternative before the price drop, but I didn't want to live with the thick grind

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby dj moonbat » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:12 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:11 pm
The action is definitely a weakness. I just haven't found any flippers that can compete with ZT. I honestly think that maybe Spyderco should focus on their core design principles (ergonomics) and leave the pocket jewelry to ZT.
This must be one of those cases where it's good that I haven't experienced the state of the art. I just got my Mantra 2, only my second flipper besides a $30 Kershaw, and the action seems perfect, at least in push-button usage, which is my preference.

EDIT: And this is the only knife I've encountered with zero play in the pivot when it's locked open. None. I've had fixed blades with more play in the joints (where the rivet holes had developed slop).

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby Spydergirl88 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:22 pm

I hated the Mantra, loved the Mantra 3, almost bought the Mantra 2 but didn't, I hope the Mantra 4 is a Wharnie!
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby knivesandbooks » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:33 pm

I say for the next one, go back to titanium and m4. No recurve. No no no compression lock. No flipper.

We need a ti framelock with m4 on the market. Skip the flipper nonsense. Give it the nice smooth action as on the Bowie. Contour it too.
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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby abbazaba » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:20 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:04 pm
I've had my Mantra 2 for 2 years now. I enjoy the design, high end Delica with M4? What's not to love? The action was what really hurt the model. It was released at the full height of ZT glory when they had unleashed the zt450 which was killing everthing with it's snappy crisp flipping action thanks to the bearing and detent design at a lower price.

The mantra just didn't have that sexy action.

was looking forward to the Mantra 3 as a CQI to the Tin foil washers that deform and make the action "bumpy" and bearing system in the Mantra 2 as well as stronger detent for a better, snapy smooth flip.

I was bummed that the M4 was traded for S30v.
Also that they left the Delica size for a slightly bigger size.

The recurve wasn't to my liking either.
They ground the mantra 1 and 2 better back by the plunge.
Hopefully we just get a Mantra 2 CQI with improved washer bearings and detent. May spice it up with Cruwear for those that complained about the M4 being to rusty.
I've had mine since they dropped and agree on all points but ditching M4... How about a completely blacked out DLC (CQI) Mantra2?

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby abbazaba » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:31 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:53 pm
For the next one I'd like to see a bigger detent ball and nothing added to the bearing washer.
Agreed on this as well. I think the small detent ball on the comparatively coarse grind lines the ball rides against is what most people describe as gritty, creating a lot of friction. I have a OG Advocate and a CQI Advocate and their action is remarkably similar because of this. A bigger ball and/or smoother tang would help.

Regardless, the way they've been doing bushing pivots on washers lately I'd like to see them buck the bearing trend and blow everyone away with a smooth as glass PB washer flipper.

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby Sharp Guy » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:24 pm

The Mantra (1) is still one of my favorite knives. I guess I got lucky with mine because it's plenty smooth. About the only issue I had was the detent was weak but it still flipped ok as long as I pushed buttoned the flipper instead of using the light switch method. I took it apart with the intent of improving the detent by opening the detent hole a little. I found the detent ball was flat. So I punched the ball out and flipped it over and it made a huge difference. It flips much better now than it did originally. Ok, the blade doesn't fly out like my 0450 but it's plenty snappy.

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Re: Sal - Plans re: Mantra 4?

Postby JacksonKnives » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:10 pm

The Mantra exists to be a flipper. There's room for another titanium-handle framelock in the lineup, but IMO it's the worst category to be competing in right now. Flipper or no flipper.

Maybe if the team could get a different sort of flipper tab (or a front/lip flipper?) to work well with the design, it could stand out. Even that is going to be tricky with all the crazy low-price designs flooding the market. Excellent flippers are easy to find now. Taichung is an expensive shop to make a knife like that in.


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