Page 1 of 2

Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:06 pm
by AccountDeletedUserRequest
In the community sharpening journal I discussed how I've been experimenting with my DMT X Course for sharpening my Manix XL. Today I made a 5 minute video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnuY-Ib2jVg

While I've run my share of polished edges in the past, during the last few years I've questioned the wisdom of doing so on a general purpose pocket knife.

I've experimented with a lot of different finishes, ranging from 80 grit sandpaper / diamond sharpmaker rods / XX Course DMT's, up to the ultrafine bench stone from Spyderco and a wealth of strops.

These days I never touch my fine or ultrafine Spyderco sharpening products, and I don't strop. I think their brown medium stones produce much better results for my uses. I find my knives still hold high level push cutting ability while showing better slicing ability than more polished edges. Furthermore I feel these toothier edges grab materials better in general, resulting in more cutting and less slipping.

In general I feel the discussion around sharpening revolves around materials disproportionally compared to technique. Cliff Stamp has made a similar video sharpening a kitchen knife on a brick, as have others. This is just one more demonstration than a steady, light touch makes a bigger difference than steel type or choice of abrasive.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:35 pm
by VashHash
I also get a shaving sharp edge off the dmt black stones. I've done it with every steel I've tried it with. I can usually get hair splitting sharpness off the blue stone.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:44 pm
by u.w.
Nice job ViVi!

I've come to very much like how the blue DMT leaves my edges. Like you show in your video with the black XC DMT, it will easily shave, and cut thin paper no issue.
Seeing you do it up with the black DMT is peaking my curiosity. I bet that is a VERY "grabby" "toothy" edge! Thanks for sharing another great video.

u.w.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:49 pm
by JD Spydo
That's great Vivi :) Now I believe your nice technique was a huge part of the great results you obtained.
About a year ago Spyderco's "in house" Michael Janich did a nice article of survival type sharpening in OFF Grid magazine and he got great results using a wide variety of abrasive surfaces to get his knives super sharp. Truly technique will do a lot even with tools that are not the best out there.

But it's a very informative video and we thank you for sharing it with us :)

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:50 pm
by Jazz
Nice vid, bro. I’ve used a sidewalk and finished on a rusty barbecue metal plate. Sliced tomatoes just fine, and that is my benchmark for a kitchen knife.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:07 pm
by Bloke
Cool video, Viveo! ;)

I have great admiration for all the freehand sharpeners, if for no other reason than I struggle with consistency when freehanding so I use a guided system which makes me feel like I cheat, though the principals and mechanics of abrading steel certainly don’t change.

As you state, to people new to sharpening I don’t think it can be stressed enough as to how important light pressure and flat, sharp and clean abrasives are for premium results.

I think once we start to understand that any given abrasive has a limit as to how deep and fast it’ll cut and any extra pressure beyond that limit only damages the abrasive and pushes steel rather than cutting it resulting in excessive burr formation, then we’re well on the path to Sharp, irrespective of what grit size abrasive we use.

Just my $AU0.02 worth. :)

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:09 pm
by jpm2
Good job.
I've always said if reduced to 1 stone, it will be my eze-lap coarse, which is equivalent to a dmt XC.
It's the most versatile stone/plate I have.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:41 pm
by StuntZombie
Great job Vivi. Do you find you need to touch up the edge less often at such a coarse grit? I guess I would worry about wearing the blade out prematurely.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:42 pm
by Cambertree
Cool video Vivi.

You've hit the nail on the head, I think, in that when we are learning the basics, the act of sharpening is kind of an end in itself. We experiment with different abrasives, steels, stropping substrates, stone types and techniques to work out how they all act. We also spend a lot of time doing this.

Then later, most sharpeners will become more results focused - 'How do I achieve an edge which works well for my purposes in the minimum amount of time?'

I find about 80% of my time on the benchstones these days is on the Atoma 140 diamond plate. As I might have mentioned before, some of the most experienced deer hunters I've learned from, who are not 'knife people', but who have been butchers and slaughtermen in their trades, just use a coarse, worn diamond steel and a light touch to sharpen their working knives.

Their edges ain't pretty, but they're very effective, last a long time and take a trivial amount of time to resharpen.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:19 pm
by AccountDeletedUserRequest
StuntZombie wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:41 pm
Great job Vivi. Do you find you need to touch up the edge less often at such a coarse grit? I guess I would worry about wearing the blade out prematurely.
Yep.

I used to carry PE Pacific Salts before I warmed up to SE. I experimented with different grits to see if I could boost the edge retention over the fine rods I had been using.

After some comparison I concluded the toothiness of a lower grit edge lets it keep that bite longer.

Polished edges worked great for me right after a sharpening, but after some dulling they started feeling slick during a slice. Especially on a steel like H1 PE. The lower grit edge will keep slicing well, even once the edge no longer shaves.

Part of why I used the fine rods was to extend blade life, but I found I was sharpening more often. I've had to get over the habit of touching up the Manix as soon as it dulls a bit, because I don't need to anymore.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:38 pm
by JD Spydo
There have been times I've been at my friend's hunting cabin in the Ozarks and one time all I had handy was a Spyderco "medium/gray" 302 benchstone and I had 3 Spyders that were all VG-10 and I was able to get them sharp and keep them sharp all that weekend. I don't remember why I didn't take more sharpening tools with me but like VIVI is telling us you can do a relatively decent job with just one stone if you play your cards right.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:41 pm
by Doc Dan
Thanks for the video. It’s goten to where many make us feel we are somehow less adept at sharpening if we do something so simple. One good stone is all we need.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:22 am
by Pelagic
Good technique and demonstration of the benefits of simplicity.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:54 am
by A.S.O.K.A
I find too often that factors like materials being cut, initiation of the cut, cutting angles, and sharpening progressions ate often overlooked. There are those of us with enough experience with different steels and sharpening methods that new steels in our posession truly means a new adventure and new characteristics to discover. Then there's the rest that just want to get there hands on a steel cause so and so says its the best. For those that have sharpening tools with multiple grits at their disposal, expirement with one of the knives in your collection. You might be surprised to find a steel that you didnt quite like can be something better in a different grit level. Same can be said for reprofiling. For example, my Vtoku2 dragonfly was ok at the factory angle, then I dropped the dps to 13 and it was much more enjoyable

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:32 pm
by StuntZombie
Watching the video got me curious, so I decided to try something similar with a Dragonfly in VG-10. It...didn't work out so well. I used the extra coarse stone from a Worksharp guided bench stone set, and the edge got pretty torn up. I backed up to a well used DMT coarse, and that worked a little better, but I was still noticing microchipping at the edge. Finally, I just stropped it on a piece of 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper, and I was able to clean up the chips in the edge. I always have a little trouble removing the burr stropping on sandpaper, so I cleaned it up on the Spyderco medium triangles.


The edge was highly polished before this but, I think I prefer it like this. Now it has more of a refined toothiness. I would have liked to go coarser, but I just couldn't keep it from chipping. I wonder if the steel composition makes a difference in this case. Or it may have been that the diamond plate I was using doesn't seem to be of the highest quality.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:12 pm
by AccountDeletedUserRequest
StuntZombie wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:32 pm
Watching the video got me curious, so I decided to try something similar with a Dragonfly in VG-10. It...didn't work out so well. I used the extra coarse stone from a Worksharp guided bench stone set, and the edge got pretty torn up. I backed up to a well used DMT coarse, and that worked a little better, but I was still noticing microchipping at the edge. Finally, I just stropped it on a piece of 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper, and I was able to clean up the chips in the edge. I always have a little trouble removing the burr stropping on sandpaper, so I cleaned it up on the Spyderco medium triangles.


The edge was highly polished before this but, I think I prefer it like this. Now it has more of a refined toothiness. I would have liked to go coarser, but I just couldn't keep it from chipping. I wonder if the steel composition makes a difference in this case. Or it may have been that the diamond plate I was using doesn't seem to be of the highest quality.
That chipping doesn't sound normal.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:12 am
by Deadboxhero
I don't disagree that technique is king but at the same time I wouldn't dismiss different finishes do different things.

A higher polish (20-10um range) can shave cleaner than what I saw in the video without touching the skin. That's a nice edge for draw/slicing cutting but it really had to rub on the skin to puch cut hair to shave, a fresh Xtra coarse would be even more difficult to shave with than that 10 year old stone, these kinds of stones break down and make finer finishes overtime than what they started as.

There was some snagging on that recipt paper, Stropping can help remove the base of the burr at the apex that's sticking straight up.

Is there an over emphasis on gadgets and gear in the sharpening community? Sure, people are better served just getting better techniques and more practice. It's still nice to have the tools for the desired finishes or faster sharpening time and there is no denying the improvements to Performance with the proper gear in the right hands.




Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:06 pm
In the community sharpening journal I discussed how I've been experimenting with my DMT X Course for sharpening my Manix XL. Today I made a 5 minute video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnuY-Ib2jVg

While I've run my share of polished edges in the past, during the last few years I've questioned the wisdom of doing so on a general purpose pocket knife.

I've experimented with a lot of different finishes, ranging from 80 grit sandpaper / diamond sharpmaker rods / XX Course DMT's, up to the ultrafine bench stone from Spyderco and a wealth of strops.

These days I never touch my fine or ultrafine Spyderco sharpening products, and I don't strop. I think their brown medium stones produce much better results for my uses. I find my knives still hold high level push cutting ability while showing better slicing ability than more polished edges. Furthermore I feel these toothier edges grab materials better in general, resulting in more cutting and less slipping.

In general I feel the discussion around sharpening revolves around materials disproportionally compared to technique. Cliff Stamp has made a similar video sharpening a kitchen knife on a brick, as have others. This is just one more demonstration than a steady, light touch makes a bigger difference than steel type or choice of abrasive.

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:25 am
by AccountDeletedUserRequest
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:12 am
I don't disagree that technique is king but at the same time I wouldn't dismiss different finishes do different things.

A higher polish (20-10um range) can shave cleaner than what I saw in the video without touching the skin. That's a nice edge for draw/slicing cutting but it really had to rub on the skin to puch cut hair to shave, a fresh Xtra coarse would be even more difficult to shave with than that 10 year old stone, these kinds of stones break down and make finer finishes overtime than what they started as.

There was some snagging on that recipt paper, Stropping can help remove the base of the burr at the apex that's sticking straight up.

Is there an over emphasis on gadgets and gear in the sharpening community? Sure, people are better served just getting better techniques and more practice. It's still nice to have the tools for the desired finishes or faster sharpening time and there is no denying the improvements to Performance with the proper gear in the right hands.




Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:06 pm
In the community sharpening journal I discussed how I've been experimenting with my DMT X Course for sharpening my Manix XL. Today I made a 5 minute video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnuY-Ib2jVg

While I've run my share of polished edges in the past, during the last few years I've questioned the wisdom of doing so on a general purpose pocket knife.

I've experimented with a lot of different finishes, ranging from 80 grit sandpaper / diamond sharpmaker rods / XX Course DMT's, up to the ultrafine bench stone from Spyderco and a wealth of strops.

These days I never touch my fine or ultrafine Spyderco sharpening products, and I don't strop. I think their brown medium stones produce much better results for my uses. I find my knives still hold high level push cutting ability while showing better slicing ability than more polished edges. Furthermore I feel these toothier edges grab materials better in general, resulting in more cutting and less slipping.

In general I feel the discussion around sharpening revolves around materials disproportionally compared to technique. Cliff Stamp has made a similar video sharpening a kitchen knife on a brick, as have others. This is just one more demonstration than a steady, light touch makes a bigger difference than steel type or choice of abrasive.
Different finishes absolutely achieve different results. I run a more polished edge on my chef knife for this reason.

I think the idea that you need a polished edge to do X task, or a toothy edge to slice X material, is more the misconception that bugs me.

You can get shaving sharpness right off a reprofiling stone like I showed. With more focus on sharpening VS the tripod between me and my stone, better results are achieved.

You can slice synthetic rope with a polished edge (If it slips around on synthetic rope fresh off the stones this means your apex isn't clean).

At the end of the day it's trivial (IMO) to get a cleanly shaving edge off a beat up $30 coarse stone. No one needs a $500 investment and 45 minutes of grit progressions to get there.

Maybe next I'll do a video with the $3 flea market stone I have :)

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:48 am
by Deadboxhero
"Can" and "how well" are different things though.

Can I slice 3/4 Manila with a polished edge? Sure but it takes more force with the teeth smoothed off. Could I shave with a coarse edge? Sure but it will be more force to cleave the hairs with the teeth, less comfortable and irritate the skin more.

It's not just a matter of for polish "oh you rounded the apex that's why" or for toothy "oh you just can't remove the burr that's why"
While newer sharpeners do struggle with those problems a seasoned sharpener can mitigate the pitfalls.


These finishes do have inherit abilities.

Can be impressive to wedge a round peg through a square hole and break the matrix but it also fits nicely in the round hole.



Vivi wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:25 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:12 am
I don't disagree that technique is king but at the same time I wouldn't dismiss different finishes do different things.

A higher polish (20-10um range) can shave cleaner than what I saw in the video without touching the skin. That's a nice edge for draw/slicing cutting but it really had to rub on the skin to puch cut hair to shave, a fresh Xtra coarse would be even more difficult to shave with than that 10 year old stone, these kinds of stones break down and make finer finishes overtime than what they started as.

There was some snagging on that recipt paper, Stropping can help remove the base of the burr at the apex that's sticking straight up.

Is there an over emphasis on gadgets and gear in the sharpening community? Sure, people are better served just getting better techniques and more practice. It's still nice to have the tools for the desired finishes or faster sharpening time and there is no denying the improvements to Performance with the proper gear in the right hands.




Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:06 pm
In the community sharpening journal I discussed how I've been experimenting with my DMT X Course for sharpening my Manix XL. Today I made a 5 minute video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnuY-Ib2jVg

While I've run my share of polished edges in the past, during the last few years I've questioned the wisdom of doing so on a general purpose pocket knife.

I've experimented with a lot of different finishes, ranging from 80 grit sandpaper / diamond sharpmaker rods / XX Course DMT's, up to the ultrafine bench stone from Spyderco and a wealth of strops.

These days I never touch my fine or ultrafine Spyderco sharpening products, and I don't strop. I think their brown medium stones produce much better results for my uses. I find my knives still hold high level push cutting ability while showing better slicing ability than more polished edges. Furthermore I feel these toothier edges grab materials better in general, resulting in more cutting and less slipping.

In general I feel the discussion around sharpening revolves around materials disproportionally compared to technique. Cliff Stamp has made a similar video sharpening a kitchen knife on a brick, as have others. This is just one more demonstration than a steady, light touch makes a bigger difference than steel type or choice of abrasive.
Different finishes absolutely achieve different results. I run a more polished edge on my chef knife for this reason.

I think the idea that you need a polished edge to do X task, or a toothy edge to slice X material, is more the misconception that bugs me.

You can get shaving sharpness right off a reprofiling stone like I showed. With more focus on sharpening VS the tripod between me and my stone, better results are achieved.

You can slice synthetic rope with a polished edge (If it slips around on synthetic rope fresh off the stones this means your apex isn't clean).

At the end of the day it's trivial (IMO) to get a cleanly shaving edge off a beat up $30 coarse stone. No one needs a $500 investment and 45 minutes of grit progressions to get there.

Maybe next I'll do a video with the $3 flea market stone I have :)

Re: Shaving sharp off a reprofiling stone

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:56 am
by Deadboxhero
It really becomes interesting when you sharpen for other people. There was no one size fits all per say. Some folks where more bias towards polish or toothy for various reasons. Some had to do with how they used the knife, some for what they used it for and for others just the look of it.

I found over the years when time allowed it was fun to interview customers and ask a series of questions and find the best finish for them, even if they didn't know what they liked, could narrow it down.