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JD, VG10 was developed for cutting tools like hand knives.

I was lucky to be a guest of the Kono family, who own Takefu Special Steel and developed VG10, during their 60th anniversary celebrations in 2014.

I specifically asked Mr Kono and other members of the family about VG10, and they said that there were multiple things that they designed VG10 to be a superior steel for. One of the primary things was that it had to perform well in thin edges on professional knives like the sujihiki slicing knives used by sushi chefs and in the vast seafood markets of Japan. Grafting tools was another thing. Also the ice shaving blades which are used in Japan to make cold desserts - imagine a block of ice clamped in a fixture, with a hand cranked rotary plane type blade underneath it. And ice skate blades.

MBS-26 is another hand knife specific steel - a Japanese version of a popular steel they usually call 'Swedish Steel' - 19c27. It's also an analogue of AEB-H.

You often hear that comment about most blade steels not being specifically designed for hand knives, and it tends to be true for Western steel development.

But the Japanese have a very different cultural view of high quality blade steels. Of course this was originally bound into the context of swords. After the Boshin War between the remnants of the Tokugawa shogunate consolidated into the rebel army of the Ezo Republic, and the Imperial forces, the wearing of samurai swords in public was banned in 1876. Many old steel and sword crafting families gradually turned their skills to household implements like knives, spring shears and scissors to make a living.

A few random examples of 'everyday' Japanese blade culture and appreciation.

Outside the cutlery museums, you'll see buses full of primary school kids on school excursions all coming there to learn about knives and bladsmithing as a cultural experience.

At a lot of gas stations on the highways - they call them 'comfort stations' - you can buy a decent quality hand forged kitchen knife, or garden tool like a sickle. The garden sickles are usually made out of laminated White Steel No. 2.

In Kyoto there's a temple called the Hamono-jinja, where worn out knives are taken to their final resting place. They are thanked by the owners for having given such good service, and blessed by a priest in an annual ceremony, before being left there.

Once I was wandering through the quiet back lanes of an old Japanese city and went into a place to have something to eat. I was the only person in there (it was mid afternoon). The place was run by a young husband and wife couple - she served and he cooked. After I had my meal, the wife asked me what my interest in Japan was, and I said (among other things) 'knives'. She excused herself and went back to the kitchen and came back with her husbands main knife - a well used Santoku in laminated White Steel No. 1. The core steel was heavily patinaed. The way she held the knife almost reverently in both hands and presented it to me to inspect, was something I would never think to experience in a Western country.

So yeah, I don't know how much volume Japanese steelmakers sell of knife steels, but they certainly have deep cultural reasons to develop high quality steels specifically for edged tools like knives.

Cambertree wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:41 pm

JD, VG10 was developed for cutting tools like hand knives.

I was lucky to be a guest of the Kono family, who own Takefu Special Steel and developed VG10, during their 60th anniversary celebrations in 2014.

I specifically asked Mr Kono and other members of the family about VG10, and they said that there were multiple things that they designed VG10 to be a superior steel for. One of the primary things was that it had to perform well in thin edges on professional knives like the sujihiki slicing knives used by sushi chefs and in the vast seafood markets of Japan. Grafting tools was another thing. Also the ice shaving blades which are used in Japan to make cold desserts - imagine a block of ice clamped in a fixture, with a hand cranked rotary plane type blade underneath it. And ice skate blades.

MBS-26 is another hand knife specific steel - a Japanese version of a popular steel they usually call 'Swedish Steel' - 19c27. It's also an analogue of AEB-H.

You often hear that comment about most blade steels not being specifically designed for hand knives, and it tends to be true for Western steel development.

But the Japanese have a very different cultural view of high quality blade steels. Of course this was originally bound into the context of swords. After the Boshin War between the Tokugawa shogunate and the rebel forces of the Ezo Republic, and the subsequent banning of the wearing samurai swords in public in 1876, these steel crafting families gradually turned their skills to household implements like knives, spring shears and scissors.

A few random examples of 'everyday' Japanese blade culture and appreciation.

Outside the cutlery museums, you'll see buses full of primary school kids on school excursions all coming there to learn about knives and bladsmithing as a cultural experience.

At a lot of gas stations on the highways - they call them 'comfort stations' - you can buy a decent quality hand forged kitchen knife, or garden tool like a sickle. The garden sickles are usually made out of laminated White Steel No. 2.

In Kyoto there's a temple called the Hamono-jinja, where worn out knives are taken to their final resting place. They are thanked by the owners for having given such good service, and blessed by a priest in an annual ceremony, before being left there.

Once I was wandering through the quiet back lanes of an old Japanese city and went into a place to have something to eat. I was the only person in there (it was mid afternoon). The place was run by a young husband and wife couple - she served and he cooked. After I had my meal, the wife asked me what my interest in Japan was, and I said (among other things) 'knives'. She excused herself and went back to the kitchen and came back with her husbands main knife - a well used Santoku in laminated White Steel No. 1. The core steel was heavily patinaed. The way she held the knife almost reverently in both hands and presented it to me to inspect, was something I would never think to experience in a Western country.

So yeah, I don't know how much volume Japanese steelmakers sell of knife steels, but they certainly have deep cultural reasons to develop high quality steels specifically for edged tools like knives.

Wow Cambwrtree thank you for sharing, made it feel like being there.

Hey thanks for the detailed information "Cambertree" :) But I do remember reading either in one of the major knife magazines or in some factory catalog where they listed VG-10 was intended to be an "agricultural steel">> but none the less it proved to be a really good all around knife blade steel for a wide range of different types of knives and edged cutting tools. I have no plans on getting rid of any of my VG-10 Spyders in SE or PE. Sure you've got to sharpen the VG-10 PE blades a bit more but VG-10 has a really nice sharp edge that penetrates easily when you cut something.

It is amazing how well the Japanese cutlery industry has done in modern times. Especially in the culinary sector. And VG-10 is a great blade steel for kitchen/culinary uses especially in SE.

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:48 pm

I voted for VG-10. In my experience, it has slightly better edge stability than H-1.

Especially in PE>> because H-1 doesn't do bad in SE for rough jobs I've discovered. And H-1 in SE is just great for Hawkbill blades especially.

My jury is still out on how well overall that LC200N will be in SE. But something deep in my gut tells me that it's a better choice than H-1 in SE. I haven't gotten to really put an SE blade in LC200N to a demanding test as of yet. But it isn't even close in PE>> the LC200N in PE holds an edge similar to what VG-10 does IMO.

JD Spydo wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:39 am

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:48 pm

I voted for VG-10. In my experience, it has slightly better edge stability than H-1.

Especially in PE>> because H-1 doesn't do bad in SE for rough jobs I've discovered. And H-1 in SE is just great for Hawkbill blades especially.

Oh, VG-10 definitely beats H-1 in PE. But even in serrated form, I have had less rolling with VG-10 when cutting through nasty stuff like hard plastic banding.

H-1 in SE is great, no doubt about it, but from my (admittedly) limited experience, I think it is just a little bit weaker at the edge than VG-10.

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:26 am

JD Spydo wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:39 am

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:48 pm

I voted for VG-10. In my experience, it has slightly better edge stability than H-1.

Especially in PE>> because H-1 doesn't do bad in SE for rough jobs I've discovered. And H-1 in SE is just great for Hawkbill blades especially.

Oh, VG-10 definitely beats H-1 in PE. But even in serrated form, I have had less rolling with VG-10 when cutting through nasty stuff like hard plastic banding.

H-1 in SE is great, no doubt about it, but from my (admittedly) limited experience, I think it is just a little bit weaker at the edge than VG-10.

Now that's just outright really interesting>> and it's somewhat contrary to the conventional wisdom. Because about 5 years ago Spyderco did a side by side test and they claim that H-1 out performed all of the other steels tested with serrations. But I've been kind of like you "Meat Man" because I too have favored VG-10 in many of my hard cutting jobs in SE. Now there is one steel that I prefer for outright brutal cutting jobs and that is 440V ( S60V) in SE.

About 9 years ago I was faced with a job that was so bad that I decided I was going to sacrifice one of my SE Spyders. I found a used 440V, SE Spyderco NATIVE to use for that task. Truly I didn't believe at all that it would survive what all I had to do with it. Not only did my 440V, SE Native (GOLDEN made) survive I still have it in my footlocker for brutal cutting jobs >> if and when that might occur again. I even had to cut through layers of wire ( steel & copper) as well as a plethora of hard to cut materials and I didn't even chip one tooth and I only had to re-sharpen once through the course of the job. Since then I've tried to find more 440V SE Spyderco knives to keep around.

A guy from Crucible ( the makers of 440V) told me that it was originally made to be a "tool & die" steel. It's only been in recent times they found it to be a great blade steel ( especially in SE).

440V is the hardest darn steel I ever came across wrecked a pair of Spyderco Brown roads trying to sharpen a SE Military in the stuff. I got the knife off of eBay, man was it dull. In the end I surrendered and sent it into Spyderco to sharpen.

Miserable stuff to sharpen if it is ever allowed to get truly dull.

Spyderco's CATRA test with H1 did indeed show it was better.

H1 is very good with serrations, I prefer the way VG-10 feels and slices being FFG has allot to do with this but it is still valid as they are not capable of doing H1 in a FFG which I guess is a limitation of the steel as I understand it.

What is the history of H1 anyway, pretty sure it was not intended as a cutlery steel, like VG-10 and S-30V and S35VN.

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:48 pm

I voted for VG-10. In my experience, it has slightly better edge stability than H-1.

And yet again I am confused concerning the "work hardened magic of serrated H1".
Not that serrated VG10 is bad at all, but still if its edge stability is BETTER than H1 s, the latter just can't be THAT magic... :confused: :confused:

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:08 am

What is the history of H1 anyway, pretty sure it was not intended as a cutlery steel, like VG-10 and S-30V and S35VN.

It's just the naming done by the Japanese to their own variation of one of the the good old 300 series austenitic stainless steels; groundwork for these stainless steels being laid out at the beginning of the 20th century in Europe. Highly corrosion resistant due to being low in carbon with high chromium and nickel proportions, it's the steel you find in all your stainless pots, cooking vessels, sinks etc, and soon to be the material of choice for the new Starship from Spacex due to its very good termal stability and high strength at high or low temperatures. Of course, none of these uses involves the steel being work hardened into martensite as it is in our knives, which is a very interesting property of these steels: severe deformation ends up changing the cristaline structure.

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:43 am

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:48 pm

I voted for VG-10. In my experience, it has slightly better edge stability than H-1.

And yet again I am confused concerning the "work hardened magic of serrated H1".
Not that serrated VG10 is bad at all, but still if its edge stability is BETTER than H1 s, the latter just can't be THAT magic... :confused: :confused:

H-1 is certainly a strange one. Larrin at Knife Steel Nerds has written a very interesting article about it. I'm not sure myself to what extent work hardening actually affects the edge, or why there is such a big performance gap between PE and SE.

The thread title asks for opinions based on our experiences, so that's what I gave, but just because that's been my experience doesn't necessarily mean it's universally true. Perhaps my case is an anomaly. Or maybe, with more rigorous testing, H-1 would come out on top.

Does anyone else have similar experiences with serrated VG-10 versus serrated H-1?

I have honestly only tried VG10, 8Cr, and H1 out of this list.

However, so far I've been really happy with SE in BD1-N as in the new Para 3 LW.

I find that cardboard completely eats H1 edges, even SE H1. VG-10 doesn't hold up great against cardboard either but like H1, the SE helps.

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:05 pm

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:43 am

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:48 pm

I voted for VG-10. In my experience, it has slightly better edge stability than H-1.

And yet again I am confused concerning the "work hardened magic of serrated H1".
Not that serrated VG10 is bad at all, but still if its edge stability is BETTER than H1 s, the latter just can't be THAT magic... :confused: :confused:

H-1 is certainly a strange one. Larrin at Knife Steel Nerds has written a very interesting article about it. I'm not sure myself to what extent work hardening actually affects the edge, or why there is such a big performance gap between PE and SE.

The thread title asks for opinions based on our experiences, so that's what I gave, but just because that's been my experience doesn't necessarily mean it's universally true. Perhaps my case is an anomaly. Or maybe, with more rigorous testing, H-1 would come out on top.

Does anyone else have similar experiences with serrated VG-10 versus serrated H-1?

I've had better luck not getting a wire edge on vg10 compared to h1 serrated. Then again, I'm not the best derrated sharpener

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:08 am

440V is the hardest darn steel I ever came across wrecked a pair of Spyderco Brown roads trying to sharpen a SE Military in the stuff. I got the knife off of eBay, man was it dull. In the end I surrendered and sent it into Spyderco to sharpen.

Miserable stuff to sharpen if it is ever allowed to get truly dull.

Brother I couldn't agree with you more about the difficulty of sharpening 440V :o :D . I've even found 440V ( S60V) to be much more difficult to sharpen than many of these newer supersteels we rave so much about. At least in SE you don't have to maintain it to the point of a razor edge. I've got a pretty nice selection of conical diamond sharpnening rods that I got from DMT that I use to sharpen the two full SE, 440V blades with that does make it somewhat easier. To sharpen 440V in PE is enough to even make a Priest or Pastor even start using a lot of curse words :eek: :D >> I know I've seen it first hand :D

I got to meet a guy who worked at Crucible and he told me that 440V was originally made for the "tool & die" industry. He said it was quite a while before they ever used it in cutlery. But for using in really brutal conditions. But I still like 440V for Spyderedges and I'm willing to go the extra effort to sharpen it. Because it maintains an edge in SE better than about anything else I've ever used so far.

JD Spydo wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:42 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:08 am

440V is the hardest darn steel I ever came across wrecked a pair of Spyderco Brown roads trying to sharpen a SE Military in the stuff. I got the knife off of eBay, man was it dull. In the end I surrendered and sent it into Spyderco to sharpen.

Miserable stuff to sharpen if it is ever allowed to get truly dull.

Brother I couldn't agree with you more about the difficulty of sharpening 440V :o :D . I've even found 440V ( S60V) to be much more difficult to sharpen than many of these newer supersteels we rave so much about. At least in SE you don't have to maintain it to the point of a razor edge. I've got a pretty nice selection of conical diamond sharpnening rods that I got from DMT that I use to sharpen the two full SE, 440V blades with that does make it somewhat easier. To sharpen 440V in PE is enough to even make a Priest or Pastor even start using a lot of curse words :eek: :D >> I know I've seen it first hand :D

I got to meet a guy who worked at Crucible and he told me that 440V was originally made for the "tool & die" industry. He said it was quite a while before they ever used it in cutlery. But for using in really brutal conditions. But I still like 440V for Spyderedges and I'm willing to go the extra effort to sharpen it. Because it maintains an edge in SE better than about anything else I've ever used so far.

I believe you, I have re-profiled both S90V and S110V and neither one are as bad as this stuff is to work with. Can see why you would use it for extreme conditions.

I voted for VG-10. I enjoy H1, but as some have said, it likes to burr up, especially on the plain edge section. I suspect its due to the chisel ground nature of the SE edges, but if I get a burr on the PE section, it's a bit stubborn to grind off. VG-10 in SE seems to be much more forgiving and just as easy to maintain.

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:05 pm

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:43 am

The Meat man wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:48 pm

I voted for VG-10. In my experience, it has slightly better edge stability than H-1.

And yet again I am confused concerning the "work hardened magic of serrated H1".
Not that serrated VG10 is bad at all, but still if its edge stability is BETTER than H1 s, the latter just can't be THAT magic... :confused: :confused:

H-1 is certainly a strange one. Larrin at Knife Steel Nerds has written a very interesting article about it. I'm not sure myself to what extent work hardening actually affects the edge, or why there is such a big performance gap between PE and SE.

The thread title asks for opinions based on our experiences, so that's what I gave, but just because that's been my experience doesn't necessarily mean it's universally true. Perhaps my case is an anomaly. Or maybe, with more rigorous testing, H-1 would come out on top.

Does anyone else have similar experiences with serrated VG-10 versus serrated H-1?

Thanks for your reply!

I read Larrins article, I somehow remember he did not talk extensively about SERRATED H1 resp. found it hard to test this steel in a serrated edge (I could be wrong though!) ??

Serrated H1, the "work hardening thing" and that this is much more noticeable in SE than in PE is something I just still don´t fully comprehend, and there seem to be no really consistent opinion about it even amongst experienced knife- and steel guys...

Reading Sal´s quote (you can find it in Vivis signature for example):

" In the serrated configuration, it [H1] will stay sharper longer than anything [!!] we´ve tested to date"

So, reading that, one would think really everyone who tries H1 should find it to be superior in edge holding.. but that´s just not the case (that everyone finds that I mean), so I am still confused... :o

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:08 am

440V is the hardest darn steel I ever came across wrecked a pair of Spyderco Brown roads trying to sharpen a SE Military in the stuff. I got the knife off of eBay, man was it dull. In the end I surrendered and sent it into Spyderco to sharpen.

What is the history of H1 anyway, pretty sure it was not intended as a cutlery steel, like VG-10 and S-30V and S35VN.

Dude you've just got to use diamond sharpening tools with 440V to do the first stages of the sharpening with. The guy from Crucible that I got to talk to about it told me that 440V had a really high vanadium content in it which made sharpening a super challenge. The steel is not all that bad in PE but in SE you really don't have to sharpen it much at all compared to most blade steels used for Spyderedged units.

I've been told on other forums that CTS--XHP is also a great steel for serrated edges. I"ve talked to two guys over at BF that have owned and used the Cold Steel serrated blades made with XHP and they were really happy with it. Now they tell me it's also no daisy to sharpen either but as far as any other blade steel that Spyderco used for serrated or combo edges I don't know of any worse than 440V. When ZDP-189 came out it wasn't even half as bad as 440V was.

But we can't skip over some of the older blade steels that were proven to be excellent blade steels from the mid to late 90s Spyder-Era. I'm speaking of AUS-8, ATS-34, ATS-55 and even GIN-1. Let's face the facts>> it was Spyderco putting out a super high quality serrated blade that essentially put them on the map to begin with. And in the beginning they did far more serrated/Spyderedged blades than they did plain edge in the early going. And for a long time they only had GIN-1 ( G-2) and hardly no one complained about it. ATS-55 is still a favorite of mine and I've got some "users" from that time slot and I have no intention of getting rid of those either.

Oh I tried with the diamond rods by Mr. Veff and the older spyderco diamond duck foot sharpener.

Hmmm are thee diamonds on this old duck foot the same as on the sharpmaker diamond rods now?

In the end it was sent in to Spyderco for a spa treatment and when I received it back it still was not as sharp as VG-10 serrated not s30V etc...

I understand the power of fond memories but there was a reason Spyderco moved onto quite frankly better steels.

Better meaning more suited to cutlery. Chris Reeve is on record on YouTube videos describing why he uses S35VN when other high speed tool steels are available. Essentially he says sure we could make knives out of those materials but what good is the bloody thing when you can’t sharpen it?

Hmmm let’s see i fI can get a time stamp and a link on that one..

Ah here we go. https://youtu.be/4QiEnhA3n0A Start at 4:26 in the video.

Having owned two blade (used and truly dull when I received them )from earlier eras I am not impressed with G2 nor S60V to say no one complained back in those days is likely inaccurate. Chances are they either did not know any better because there was not anything better yet or nobody heard them cursing trying to get them sharp

I will say on thing for Buck they stuck with simple steels until recent years and perfected there 440C and 420HC and there is something to be said for that as these steels have been in use since the 1960’s with them.

When it comes to Cold Steel with XHP which they no longer use having switched to S35VN I never purchased their serrated blades as they looked impossible to sharpen when dull the design I am certain works great but when dulled then what?

Hands down however Spyderco wins the trophy for most innovative use in steels in cutlery no one else is even close.

I've never yet tried one of the VEFF serration sharpening tools>> but over at Bladeforums I've heard nothing but good about their stuff. The conical DMT diamond rods you can get in about 5 different grits and I just recently got one of their conical rods in ceramic too.

Also the diamond sharpening tools I've gotten through a rock hound friend of mine made by the 3M company have also been a nice sharpening tool for serrated edges. And the 3M files are available in 4 to 5 different grits. I've heard that TEXAS Knifemaker supply also has the 3M diamond files.

The Veff rods are graduated and at 600 grit as I recall they are pretty rough. As for diamond rods no need for them now I make sure to never ever allow my serrations to get dull enough that they will not easily cut paper and the sharpmaker handles that pretty good.

I forget which member here possibly Mushroom or sharp guy recommended ruby rods but I use this also.