Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 13630
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby sal » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:01 am

We found that galvanic corrosion pops up in places not expected. We're still experimenting. Material, heat treat, other metals in close proximity or touching. All areas in question.

Hey Vivi, I've been carrying the new FRN / VG-10 model in Hawaii for about a week with no issues.

sal

User avatar
ferider
Member
Posts: 812
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:41 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby ferider » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:34 am

captnvegtble wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:16 pm
Correct. So not only does Spyderco tell us they're stainless steel liners, but we also know that K390 is a more expensive steel upgrade... so a business wouldn't intentionally use a more expensive corrosion prone steel for handle construction without any benefit.
So you believe Spyderco's collateral more than Vivi's pictures ? Vivi's report is by far not the only one. Why would P4 liners rust, and P3 liners not, in the same environment ? Vivi, how's your P3 doing ?

I have many lined Spyderco, including 20+ year old ones, and most get used in the same, relatively dry (compared to Vivi's) environment. I've had lined Spydercos with rusted tang (Cruwear, Hap40), but clean liners. My P4 copies (all 3) are my only Spyderco with very noticeably rusting liners. Somewhere here is a thread where I asked Sal about the steel used in the P4 liners and he didn't want to answer. You can search for it.

Galvanic corrosion ? Between G10 and liners ? Or on the other side touching nothing ? Corrosion in my knives (and Vivi's) occurs on both sides of the liners. What steel are the liners made of, Sal, and are they coated ?

User avatar
Cambertree
Member
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:48 am
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Cambertree » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:54 am

sal wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:01 am
We found that galvanic corrosion pops up in places not expected. We're still experimenting. Material, heat treat, other metals in close proximity or touching. All areas in question.

Hey Vivi, I've been carrying the new FRN / VG-10 model in Hawaii for about a week with no issues.

sal
Thanks Sal!

That's good to hear you're researching the issue.

I've personally never really had any issues with VG10/FRN knives and corrosion. Maybe really mild rust inside the nested scales after long use - I'm talking years - but very minimal, and usually wipes off clean with a strop.

vivi
Member
Posts: 7214
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:15 am

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby vivi » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:30 am

sal wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:01 am
We found that galvanic corrosion pops up in places not expected. We're still experimenting. Material, heat treat, other metals in close proximity or touching. All areas in question.

Hey Vivi, I've been carrying the new FRN / VG-10 model in Hawaii for about a week with no issues.

sal
I'm taking a road trip this month and I'll be passing by one of the best knife shops in the country. If they have one in stock I plan to buy one and put it straight in my pocket.

The Police 4 is my favorite design of yours, but the materials in the LW version will suit me better.
Carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 SE | Siren | Police 4 LW | Police 4 K390 | C95 Manix foliage green | Manix XL M4 DLC | Street Beat LW | Aqua Salt

vivi
Member
Posts: 7214
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:15 am

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby vivi » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:50 am

ferider wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:34 am
captnvegtble wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:16 pm
Correct. So not only does Spyderco tell us they're stainless steel liners, but we also know that K390 is a more expensive steel upgrade... so a business wouldn't intentionally use a more expensive corrosion prone steel for handle construction without any benefit.
So you believe Spyderco's collateral more than Vivi's pictures ? Vivi's report is by far not the only one. Why would P4 liners rust, and P3 liners not, in the same environment ? Vivi, how's your P3 doing ?

I have many lined Spyderco, including 20+ year old ones, and most get used in the same, relatively dry (compared to Vivi's) environment. I've had lined Spydercos with rusted tang (Cruwear, Hap40), but clean liners. My P4 copies (all 3) are my only Spyderco with very noticeably rusting liners. Somewhere here is a thread where I asked Sal about the steel used in the P4 liners and he didn't want to answer. You can search for it.

Galvanic corrosion ? Between G10 and liners ? Or on the other side touching nothing ? Corrosion in my knives (and Vivi's) occurs on both sides of the liners. What steel are the liners made of, Sal, and are they coated ?
My Police 3 also gets rusty liners, but it took years rather than 6 months. It also wasn't as bad. Since I rarely carry my P3 let me go a head and pop it open for a comparison shot.

This Police 3 was purchased the year they came out...2008 I think? I carried it in rotation with other knives over the years. Took it apart every few years to sand out rust, and as a result the liners are a little more polished than a stock P3 or P4.

Unlike the P4, this is a knife I've always carried year round. The P4 is a knife I got knowing I couldn't carry it half the year.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Bit worse than expected.

For the record the purpose of this thread is to document my experience rather than complain. I know that I can rust any pocket knife that isn't a salt, and frankly rusting a salt someday wouldn't surprise me. That's why I carry a Pacific Salt or DLC Manix XL during the warmer seasons.

In fact, let this thread be a testament to the DLC Manix. I have never seen a speck of corrosion anywhere on that knife. It's the only non-salt Spyderco I can say that about. I've rusted other DLC spydercos because the liners weren't coated.
Carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 SE | Siren | Police 4 LW | Police 4 K390 | C95 Manix foliage green | Manix XL M4 DLC | Street Beat LW | Aqua Salt

User avatar
Pancake
Member
Posts: 1019
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:52 am

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Pancake » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:16 am

Hey Vivi.
Did Spyderco contact you and offered you a job as a ,,rust-tester“? I think you would be a great candidate for this job. You will get a knife and you will try to rust it during summer :D
In the pocket: Chaparral FRN, Native Chief, Police 4 K390, Pacific Salt SE, Manix 2 G10 REX45
On belt: Waterway

User avatar
curlyhairedboy
Member
Posts: 2170
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:01 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby curlyhairedboy » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:29 am

I'll sub in for that role. Sweat and salt air is a nasty combo!

Also, the only requirement for galvanic corrosion is not physical contact, but electrical contact. That means even metal separated by non conducting material like G10 or Teflon can still be electrically coupled via a film of conducting fluid such as sweat.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Waterway, Tanto PM2, CQI Kapara
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Calendar Watu
Would like to own again: Currently N/A!
Wishlist: Smallfly 2, Pac Salt 2 LC200n, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

User avatar
mb1
Member
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:47 am
Location: Southeast, US

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby mb1 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:41 pm

Vivi, have you tried coating the liners with anything? Froglube, Balistol or whatever?

That is somewhat surprising to see, but as others have noted stainless isn’t rustproof by any means (as you well know).
- Mark

"Don't believe everything you think." -anonymous wise man

User avatar
Bloke
Member
Posts: 4689
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 12:43 am
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Bloke » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:29 pm

Hey Vivi, I hate unexpected surprises in carbon steel folders so I pull them apart before use and coat blade, liners, stop pin ... with Eezox.

Might be worth a try mate. :)
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

User avatar
z4vdBt
Member
Posts: 770
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:42 pm
Location: U.S.A. Earth

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby z4vdBt » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:15 am

:)

User avatar
curlyhairedboy
Member
Posts: 2170
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:01 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby curlyhairedboy » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:28 am

Bloke wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:29 pm
Hey Vivi, I hate unexpected surprises in carbon steel folders so I pull them apart before use and coat blade, liners, stop pin ... with Eezox.

Might be worth a try mate. :)
how does eezox work for you? always good to get a firsthand account.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Waterway, Tanto PM2, CQI Kapara
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Calendar Watu
Would like to own again: Currently N/A!
Wishlist: Smallfly 2, Pac Salt 2 LC200n, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

User avatar
ferider
Member
Posts: 812
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:41 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby ferider » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:45 am

Vivi wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:50 am
My Police 3 also gets rusty liners, but it took years rather than 6 months. It also wasn't as bad. Since I rarely carry my P3 let me go a head and pop it open for a comparison shot.

This Police 3 was purchased the year they came out...2008 I think? I carried it in rotation with other knives over the years. Took it apart every few years to sand out rust, and as a result the liners are a little more polished than a stock P3 or P4.
Thanks for sharing, Vivi.

User avatar
rwasham
Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:48 am

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby rwasham » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:53 am

Informative thread. Thanks guys!

User avatar
Bloke
Member
Posts: 4689
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 12:43 am
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Bloke » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:18 am

curlyhairedboy wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:28 am
Bloke wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:29 pm
Hey Vivi, I hate unexpected surprises in carbon steel folders so I pull them apart before use and coat blade, liners, stop pin ... with Eezox.

Might be worth a try mate. :)
how does eezox work for you? always good to get a firsthand account.
Hey Curly, I stumbled on Eezox while looking for a dry lube to use on my Rock Chucker reloading press about fifteen odd years ago. It leaves a bit to be desired as far as lubes go but to date has been an excellent rust inhibitor. I used it on guns, knives, tools, nuts and bolts etc. on vehicles, kids bikes, scooters and anything else I want to protect from corrosion and can’t fault it.

It’s inexpensive and a small tin should last you years and for what it’s worth when my Province arrives I’ll take the scales off and give it a coat of Eezox too. :)
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

User avatar
Wartstein
Member
Posts: 6661
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:06 am
Location: Salzburg, Austria, Europe

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Wartstein » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:51 am

Vivi wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:13 pm
James Y wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:45 pm
I rusted the liners on my Police 3 in VG10, but that took me 3-4 years of year round carry, and the rust was about 30% of what happened with the Police 4. Don't recall any rust on the blade, backspacer or lock bar on the P3.

I knew the blade on the P4 would require more attention, but I did not expect the same of the liners.
Vivi, looking at your pics of the Police 4 (K 390): Sure, a lot of rust on the liners, not doubt.
But, and correct me if I am wrong: Does that really matter speaking strictly functional?
And how many years would you have to carry the knife without ever cleaning off the rust till it WOULD get a real problem functionwise?

These are honest questions, since I personally never had any serious rust problems whatsoever on my folders, despite carrying them a lot in sweaty pockets and sometimes over days in wet conditions (mostly VG10 though). So I have no real experience here.
Might be, that your enviroment (the air) is a lot more salty than where I live (next salt water around 200 miles away I guess and winds coming from there shielded off by hight mountains)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

User avatar
curlyhairedboy
Member
Posts: 2170
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:01 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby curlyhairedboy » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:08 am

Bloke wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:18 am
curlyhairedboy wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:28 am
Bloke wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:29 pm
Hey Vivi, I hate unexpected surprises in carbon steel folders so I pull them apart before use and coat blade, liners, stop pin ... with Eezox.

Might be worth a try mate. :)
how does eezox work for you? always good to get a firsthand account.
Hey Curly, I stumbled on Eezox while looking for a dry lube to use on my Rock Chucker reloading press about fifteen odd years ago. It leaves a bit to be desired as far as lubes go but to date has been an excellent rust inhibitor. I used it on guns, knives, tools, nuts and bolts etc. on vehicles, kids bikes, scooters and anything else I want to protect from corrosion and can’t fault it.

It’s inexpensive and a small tin should last you years and for what it’s worth when my Province arrives I’ll take the scales off and give it a coat of Eezox too. :)
Thanks! :)
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Waterway, Tanto PM2, CQI Kapara
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Calendar Watu
Would like to own again: Currently N/A!
Wishlist: Smallfly 2, Pac Salt 2 LC200n, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

User avatar
Cambertree
Member
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:48 am
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Cambertree » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:20 am

curlyhairedboy wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:29 am
Also, the only requirement for galvanic corrosion is not physical contact, but electrical contact. That means even metal separated by non conducting material like G10 or Teflon can still be electrically coupled via a film of conducting fluid such as sweat.
Right, that's really interesting. So technically, while gripping the knife in your hand, with the liners and backspring exposed like that, you're closing a weak electrical circuit?

I wonder if it has an appreciable effect on any galvanic corrosion?

User avatar
curlyhairedboy
Member
Posts: 2170
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:01 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby curlyhairedboy » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:21 am

Cambertree wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:20 am
curlyhairedboy wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:29 am
Also, the only requirement for galvanic corrosion is not physical contact, but electrical contact. That means even metal separated by non conducting material like G10 or Teflon can still be electrically coupled via a film of conducting fluid such as sweat.
Right, that's really interesting. So technically, while gripping the knife in your hand, with the liners and backspring exposed like that, you're closing a weak electrical circuit?

I wonder if it has an appreciable effect on any galvanic corrosion?
potentially closing one, yeah. it's why outdoor steel usually gets a coating of zinc (galvanized steel). the manufacturer knows the steel is going to want to rust, so it puts a layer of zinc on there. When wet, the galvanic coupling causes the zinc to corrode instead of the steel.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Waterway, Tanto PM2, CQI Kapara
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Calendar Watu
Would like to own again: Currently N/A!
Wishlist: Smallfly 2, Pac Salt 2 LC200n, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

User avatar
Cambertree
Member
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:48 am
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Cambertree » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:21 am

curlyhairedboy wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:21 am
potentially closing one, yeah. it's why outdoor steel usually gets a coating of zinc (galvanized steel). the manufacturer knows the steel is going to want to rust, so it puts a layer of zinc on there. When wet, the galvanic coupling causes the zinc to corrode instead of the steel.
Thanks Curly, that’s very interesting and new to me.

So a knife with nested liners in a non conductive handle material like G10, plus recessed screws, and a titanium clip, would potentially mitigate or minimise this effect?

It’d be fascinating to know if that galvanic effect, combined with dried salt buildup from sweat and conductive moisture actually contributes in a measurable way to liner corrosion.

User avatar
Pancake
Member
Posts: 1019
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:52 am

Re: Let's take a look inside my Police 4

Postby Pancake » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:08 pm

Some days ago I disassemble my Chief and there was some very minor corrosion on the backspacer. And that is linerless G10 and my screws are locktited.....

Corrosion is a bit weird. Last year I made an experiment with my students and we had nails in different environments. The biggest surprised was a nail that corroded in distilled water. Did not expect that for sure.
In the pocket: Chaparral FRN, Native Chief, Police 4 K390, Pacific Salt SE, Manix 2 G10 REX45
On belt: Waterway


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Cl1ff and 32 guests