How low do you go?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
vivi
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Re: How low do you go?

#21

Post by vivi »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:14 am
I guess the only way to get tall wide bevels is to hold the degree you want and keep grinding away. Is this correct?

What are you guys using to husk off large amount of steel? Wicked edge pro stones at $75.00 are a bit expensive in my opinion seems like there should be a more affordable option than blowing these stones reprofiling S90V and the like.
I'm using a 15 year old DMT stone I bought for $30 for most of my reprofiling. Diamonds all the way. It takes hundreds of knives to get them to the point of even thinking about replacing them. Based on my experience I can expect at least 20 years out of a DMT stone. I've worn mine in but they still cut very fast and have not needed replaced.

The first few strokes can be tricky when there's no steel supporting the angle you're using. Once you do a little grinding and establish a flat section of steel at the angle you'll be using, holding that angle becomes easier.
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Re: How low do you go?

#22

Post by Deadboxhero »

Vivi wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:02 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:14 am
I guess the only way to get tall wide bevels is to hold the degree you want and keep grinding away. Is this correct?

What are you guys using to husk off large amount of steel? Wicked edge pro stones at $75.00 are a bit expensive in my opinion seems like there should be a more affordable option than blowing these stones reprofiling S90V and the like.
I'm using a 15 year old DMT stone I bought for $30 for most of my reprofiling. Diamonds all the way. It takes hundreds of knives to get them to the point of even thinking about replacing them. Based on my experience I can expect at least 20 years out of a DMT stone. I've worn mine in but they still cut very fast and have not needed replaced.

The first few strokes can be tricky when there's no steel supporting the angle you're using. Once you do a little grinding and establish a flat section of steel at the angle you'll be using, holding that angle becomes easier.
Well I guarantee that plate is worn smoother than when you first got it. It's not that they wear completely smooth but the effectiveness drops over time to the point where it's more cost effective to buy a new one and get stuff done. Even with using with a light touch it is a single layer of diamond abrasive, despite being diamond any matter acting on matter they will always wear each other. The grains will break down on the plate with use.

There is an intial aggressive period
Than it plateaus a bit
Than it drops and is no longer working as efficiently nor at the finish as the intial and plateau period.

This is why in professional sharpening circles folks tend not to use coated/plated stones and why bonded stones have been showing up in those circles.

I still use the coated/plated for the microserrations they create for some applications, but when I hear folks using the same stone for 1-5-10-20-30 years with heavy use I know that stone is worn a lot smoother and isn't really the same stone anymore especially if wanting to hog the metal off.

I've switched to Atoma for my plate needs over DMT because they secure the diamond to the plate better rather than plated to a film and adhering to a bar of steel.
The trade off is that the "sockets" on the Atoma make even more of a aggressive scratch pattern, so some prefer the DMT. I'm only using these for that purpose of "sawblade type" edges and flatting water stones so it suited my needs.

Wicked edge is behind the curve on stone technologies.

Looks like edge pro is leading the way with fixed angle stones with Venev, Poltava, and the Diamond matrix stones.
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Re: How low do you go?

#23

Post by Deadboxhero »

Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:07 pm
RustyIron wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:49 pm
I take both my Spydercos to 17 degrees off the flat grind. Since I use my knife for serious work, I'm cognizant of the diminished strength of steeper angles. But even more important, a shallower angle diminishes the aesthetic appeal of an otherwise pretty knife. For me, it makes no sense to go steeper.
The more obtuse edges do look better, but the thinned out ones are surprisingly tough.

Here's a Manix XL in "chippy" S30V

Image

Here's that Manix chopping, batoning, cutting and stabbing with no perceptible reduction in sharpness:

https://youtu.be/hl3n-BtLoaI

Now I'm not trying to say my edges would work better for you, just trying to show that thinned out edges can still hold up to some rougher use.
There is a difference between the freehand edges we like and the fixed angle edges others use.

Freehand will create a convex beefing up the edge angle at the apex.
15dps on a fixed angle system will have less meat down at the apex.

So it's the same angle at the shoulder but not the same Geometry at the edge.

So folks will have different experiences.
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Re: How low do you go?

#24

Post by Pelagic »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:50 pm
Vivi wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:02 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:14 am
I guess the only way to get tall wide bevels is to hold the degree you want and keep grinding away. Is this correct?

What are you guys using to husk off large amount of steel? Wicked edge pro stones at $75.00 are a bit expensive in my opinion seems like there should be a more affordable option than blowing these stones reprofiling S90V and the like.
I'm using a 15 year old DMT stone I bought for $30 for most of my reprofiling. Diamonds all the way. It takes hundreds of knives to get them to the point of even thinking about replacing them. Based on my experience I can expect at least 20 years out of a DMT stone. I've worn mine in but they still cut very fast and have not needed replaced.

The first few strokes can be tricky when there's no steel supporting the angle you're using. Once you do a little grinding and establish a flat section of steel at the angle you'll be using, holding that angle becomes easier.
Well I guarantee that plate is worn smoother than when you first got it. It's not that they wear completely smooth but the effectiveness drops over time to the point where it's more cost effective to buy a new one and get stuff done. Even with using with a light touch it is a single layer of diamond abrasive, despite being diamond any matter acting on matter they will always wear each other. The grains will break down on the plate with use.

There is an intial aggressive period
Than it plateaus a bit
Than it drops and is no longer working as efficiently nor at the finish as the intial and plateau period.

This is why in professional sharpening circles folks tend not to use coated/plated stones and why bonded stones have been showing up in those circles.

I still use the coated/plated for the microserrations they create for some applications, but when I hear folks using the same stone for 1-5-10-20-30 years with heavy use I know that stone is worn a lot smoother and isn't really the same stone anymore especially if wanting to hog the metal off.

I've switched to Atoma for my plate needs over DMT because they secure the diamond to the plate better rather than plated to a film and adhering to a bar of steel.
The trade off is that the "sockets" on the Atoma make even more of a aggressive scratch pattern, so some prefer the DMT. I'm only using these for that purpose of "sawblade type" edges and flatting water stones so it suited my needs.

Wicked edge is behind the curve on stone technologies.

Looks like edge pro is leading the way with fixed angle stones with Venev, Poltava, and the Diamond matrix stones.
Shawn, do you have any experience with Trend, Eze-lap, or Tsuboman diamond plates? Is atoma the best in your opinion for plates?
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?
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Re: How low do you go?

#25

Post by Deadboxhero »

Pelagic wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:37 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:50 pm
Vivi wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:02 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:14 am
I guess the only way to get tall wide bevels is to hold the degree you want and keep grinding away. Is this correct?

What are you guys using to husk off large amount of steel? Wicked edge pro stones at $75.00 are a bit expensive in my opinion seems like there should be a more affordable option than blowing these stones reprofiling S90V and the like.
I'm using a 15 year old DMT stone I bought for $30 for most of my reprofiling. Diamonds all the way. It takes hundreds of knives to get them to the point of even thinking about replacing them. Based on my experience I can expect at least 20 years out of a DMT stone. I've worn mine in but they still cut very fast and have not needed replaced.

The first few strokes can be tricky when there's no steel supporting the angle you're using. Once you do a little grinding and establish a flat section of steel at the angle you'll be using, holding that angle becomes easier.
Well I guarantee that plate is worn smoother than when you first got it. It's not that they wear completely smooth but the effectiveness drops over time to the point where it's more cost effective to buy a new one and get stuff done. Even with using with a light touch it is a single layer of diamond abrasive, despite being diamond any matter acting on matter they will always wear each other. The grains will break down on the plate with use.

There is an intial aggressive period
Than it plateaus a bit
Than it drops and is no longer working as efficiently nor at the finish as the intial and plateau period.

This is why in professional sharpening circles folks tend not to use coated/plated stones and why bonded stones have been showing up in those circles.

I still use the coated/plated for the microserrations they create for some applications, but when I hear folks using the same stone for 1-5-10-20-30 years with heavy use I know that stone is worn a lot smoother and isn't really the same stone anymore especially if wanting to hog the metal off.

I've switched to Atoma for my plate needs over DMT because they secure the diamond to the plate better rather than plated to a film and adhering to a bar of steel.
The trade off is that the "sockets" on the Atoma make even more of a aggressive scratch pattern, so some prefer the DMT. I'm only using these for that purpose of "sawblade type" edges and flatting water stones so it suited my needs.

Wicked edge is behind the curve on stone technologies.

Looks like edge pro is leading the way with fixed angle stones with Venev, Poltava, and the Diamond matrix stones.
Shawn, do you have any experience with Trend, Eze-lap, or Tsuboman diamond plates? Is atoma the best in your opinion for plates?
They all work, I like what I like for the reason I stated above.
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Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: How low do you go?

#26

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Hi Sean, thanks for the info.

Am I understanding correctly that free hand created more of an apple seed grind and a stronger blade at the same angle?

I mean I take people’s word for it but how do they imperially know what degree they are at free handing it?

I have taken Blade’s down steep in the past and the angle guided sharpeners “Wicked Edge Pro” do leave one heck of a step in the blade.

Seems to me the best of all worlds would go something like this Draw out the bevel you desire along the length of the blade using a stick put some holes in it and drop a pen through the hole secure the other side to the table and draw along the length of the blade where you want the bevel.

After that have a belt sander attached to an armature where it can be raised and lowered the set the blade in a Jig that has the ability to be set using an angle cube to make sure you are exact final variables should be moving the blade back and forth along its length only, amount of pressure applied to the belt sander down wards and speed it runs at.
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Re: How low do you go?

#27

Post by Pelagic »

Freehand doesn't necessarily convex the bevel. It all depends on the skill of the sharpener. Some knives are much easier than others as well. A wharncliffe (to me) is rather easy to produce a virtually perfect V-bevel.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?
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Re: How low do you go?

#28

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:11 pm
Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:07 pm
RustyIron wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:49 pm
I take both my Spydercos to 17 degrees off the flat grind. Since I use my knife for serious work, I'm cognizant of the diminished strength of steeper angles. But even more important, a shallower angle diminishes the aesthetic appeal of an otherwise pretty knife. For me, it makes no sense to go steeper.
The more obtuse edges do look better, but the thinned out ones are surprisingly tough.

Here's a Manix XL in "chippy" S30V

Image

Here's that Manix chopping, batoning, cutting and stabbing with no perceptible reduction in sharpness:

https://youtu.be/hl3n-BtLoaI

Now I'm not trying to say my edges would work better for you, just trying to show that thinned out edges can still hold up to some rougher use.
There is a difference between the freehand edges we like and the fixed angle edges others use.

Freehand will create a convex beefing up the edge angle at the apex.
15dps on a fixed angle system will have less meat down at the apex.

So it's the same angle at the shoulder but not the same Geometry at the edge.

So folks will have different experiences.
I think I will accept this as the answer on what freehand produces, now if someone can tell me how they can declare certainty of actual degrees free handed that would be interesting to learn.
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Re: How low do you go?

#29

Post by Pelagic »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:55 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:11 pm
Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:07 pm
RustyIron wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:49 pm
I take both my Spydercos to 17 degrees off the flat grind. Since I use my knife for serious work, I'm cognizant of the diminished strength of steeper angles. But even more important, a shallower angle diminishes the aesthetic appeal of an otherwise pretty knife. For me, it makes no sense to go steeper.
The more obtuse edges do look better, but the thinned out ones are surprisingly tough.

Here's a Manix XL in "chippy" S30V

Image

Here's that Manix chopping, batoning, cutting and stabbing with no perceptible reduction in sharpness:

https://youtu.be/hl3n-BtLoaI

Now I'm not trying to say my edges would work better for you, just trying to show that thinned out edges can still hold up to some rougher use.
There is a difference between the freehand edges we like and the fixed angle edges others use.

Freehand will create a convex beefing up the edge angle at the apex.
15dps on a fixed angle system will have less meat down at the apex.

So it's the same angle at the shoulder but not the same Geometry at the edge.

So folks will have different experiences.
I think I will accept this as the answer on what freehand produces, now if someone can tell me how they can declare certainty of actual degrees free handed that would be interesting to learn.
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Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?
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Re: How low do you go?

#30

Post by The Meat man »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:55 pm

I think I will accept this as the answer on what freehand produces, now if someone can tell me how they can declare certainty of actual degrees free handed that would be interesting to learn.
All you have to do is measure it. There exists devices specifically designed to do this.
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Re: How low do you go?

#31

Post by Deadboxhero »

Laser Gonimeter.

CATRA makes one called a hobbygoni.

Convex edge from freehand can Reflect a smudge from the start of the angle at the shoulder to the apex.

For example, if your shoulder is at 15dps the convex can blend to 18dps at the tip of the apex.






Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:55 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:11 pm
Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:07 pm
RustyIron wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:49 pm
I take both my Spydercos to 17 degrees off the flat grind. Since I use my knife for serious work, I'm cognizant of the diminished strength of steeper angles. But even more important, a shallower angle diminishes the aesthetic appeal of an otherwise pretty knife. For me, it makes no sense to go steeper.
The more obtuse edges do look better, but the thinned out ones are surprisingly tough.

Here's a Manix XL in "chippy" S30V

Image

Here's that Manix chopping, batoning, cutting and stabbing with no perceptible reduction in sharpness:

https://youtu.be/hl3n-BtLoaI

Now I'm not trying to say my edges would work better for you, just trying to show that thinned out edges can still hold up to some rougher use.
There is a difference between the freehand edges we like and the fixed angle edges others use.

Freehand will create a convex beefing up the edge angle at the apex.
15dps on a fixed angle system will have less meat down at the apex.

So it's the same angle at the shoulder but not the same Geometry at the edge.

So folks will have different experiences.
I think I will accept this as the answer on what freehand produces, now if someone can tell me how they can declare certainty of actual degrees free handed that would be interesting to learn.
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Re: How low do you go?

#32

Post by JacksonKnives »

Check out this DIY laser setup: http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=338
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Re: How low do you go?

#33

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Thanks guys always wondered about a tool for measuring.
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Re: How low do you go?

#34

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

After reading this thread it looks like DMT is a pretty good way to go with free handing. It also seems Like ViVi has allot of experience with this so a couple of questions to ViVi.

ViVi which of the DMT stones do you use to husk off lots of steel for a low angle reprofile?

ViVi what is your grit procession using these stones? I like the results you show better than what I have gotten off the angle systems and yes I realize it will take a long time to come up to your level of free hand sharpening but am willing to buy the stones you recommend.

As for touch ups I will always use the Sharpmaker but I want to get my Spyderco’s down the way you do with the Manix XL.

Oh and one last thing I already have the large Spyderco medium (Brown) bench stone and the large Spyderco Fine (White) bench stone.

Going to get some angle adapters to help learn the feel for free handing.

Thanks.
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Re: How low do you go?

#35

Post by jpm2 »

The Norton jb8 coarse side is my go to for removing metal fast. The diamond plates are reserved for finishing.

Image
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Re: How low do you go?

#36

Post by vivi »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:26 pm
After reading this thread it looks like DMT is a pretty good way to go with free handing. It also seems Like ViVi has allot of experience with this so a couple of questions to ViVi.

ViVi which of the DMT stones do you use to husk off lots of steel for a low angle reprofile?
I started off with a 8" extra coarse, which if you shop around can be bought for $30-40. Wasn't a fan of the holes as tips can get hung up in them, and 8" is a bit smaller for larger knives like chef knives. So I went with an 11" extra coarse and I find that size makes life easier. The 8" one is more worn down, and I'll sometimes finish edges with it when I want a really coarse edge with lots of tooth for aggressive slicing.
ViVi what is your grit procession using these stones? I like the results you show better than what I have gotten off the angle systems and yes I realize it will take a long time to come up to your level of free hand sharpening but am willing to buy the stones you recommend.
I usually don't progress grits. I'm of the philosophy that polishing bevels is a waste of time, so I only polished the apex. Back when I ran more polished bevels I'd just straight from a DMT X Coarse to a DMT Fine. I'd use the fine to polish the bevels up, then once my bevel was thinned out and polished I'd maintain on the sharpmaker fine rods at 15 degrees. If the 15 degree slots didn't do the job I knew I didn't take the bevel thin enough on the DMT's.

Most my knives, like my Manix, I will sharpen around 10dps on the coarse DMT, then microbevel at 15dps with the brown medium sharpmaker rods.

Lately I've been experimenting with no microbevel or sharpmaker, and using nothing but the extra coarse DMT for the entire sharpening process. The Manix XL I've carried the past week has worked really well for me with this type of edge, and even after a good bit of use its shaving.

I don't strop as a finishing step. I try to achieve the sharpness I'm shooting for straight off stones.
As for touch ups I will always use the Sharpmaker but I want to get my Spyderco’s down the way you do with the Manix XL.

Oh and one last thing I already have the large Spyderco medium (Brown) bench stone and the large Spyderco Fine (White) bench stone.

Going to get some angle adapters to help learn the feel for free handing.

Thanks.
The medium bench stone from Spyderco is a great finishing stone for the apex. It's a pretty refined, polished edge that's coarse enough to still have a good amount of tooth.

In general I shape and set bevels with diamonds, and refine the apex with ceramics.

If you get yourself one good sized diamond stone for reprofiling, that + the stones and sharpmaker you've got is all you need to reproduce any edges I've posted to the forum.

Note that there are a few different varieties of DMT's out there. Some of the stones, even within the same length, are wider than others. I think they make 2.5" wide and 4" wide. Some have holes on the surface, some don't (I'd recommend no holes). Some come with a case and a base to set the stone in, some don't. Some have smooth, slick bottoms that require you to use something to hold them in place, some have rubber feet attached that keep them in place. Make sure you take a good look around, and if you have any questions let me know.

I'd suggest picking up a couple of Byrds to practice with. They have blade shapes similar to Spydercos and they grind fast. They're good for learning.

Lastly, consider other brands as well. Next time I buy a bench stone, while I'm definitely looking at DMT, I'm also going to see what else has popped up over the years. It's been a long time since I've been shoppng for reprofiling stones. Maybe I'll pick up a new one next year to compare to my DMT's.
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Re: How low do you go?

#37

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Thank you ViVi really appreciate the informative reply.
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Re: How low do you go?

#38

Post by SteveMidwest »

I'm still working my way down. I have quite a few knives, so I don't sharpen very often, and never if I don't have to.
I'm down to 14 dps now, and once there. I have found a few knife steels, and hardness levels. That will not stand up to it. As an example. AUS 8 at 58 HRC, will not hold a 14 dps edge (rolls). The only other ones I've taken this low so far, that are holding up well. Is M4, at 63, 64, and 65 HRC (three knives). And oh my goodness, do they strop back fast and easy! :D
I've done some XHP at 14 as well, and those two knives, were 62, and 62.5 HRC.
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Re: How low do you go?

#39

Post by Cambertree »

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:14 am
What are you guys using to husk off large amount of steel?
I use the Atoma 140 for grinding back and shaping the bevels.

The Atoma 400, 600, and 1200 progression are more for just cleaning up the scratch patterns, in my way of sharpening.

I like a clean looking bevel. Theoretically a more polished surface offers marginally more corrosion resistance, but I mostly just do it for the challenge and aesthetic purposes.

Vivi, that CPM D2 Millie looks like a beast of a cutter!
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Re: How low do you go?

#40

Post by Doeswhateveraspidercan »

Now here is something I found interesting as a wicked edge pro owner. I decided to compare grits and discovered what DMT Sells as the Extra, Extra Coarse Diamond stone is about equal to the 100 Grit Wicked Edge Pro when comparing Microns to MIcrons.


https://support.wickededgeusa.com/porta ... ison-table

https://www.dmtsharp.com/misc/dmt-chart/?ajax=true

and yet another chart at Gritomatic https://www.gritomatic.com/products/ven ... r-edge-pro have to click on the grit chart.
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